|   I need help choosing a light system.... | Doc
Nov 29, 2001 6:13 AM | | I've decided to take the night riding plunge, but not sure which way to go.
Can I just use a climbers headlamp?
I know there has been a lot of discussion lately about the dependability of the Niterider systems, so should I stay away from those?
If I go with a "real" light system I want HID- and I think I'd prefer helmet mount, but not really sure. I like the Cateye Stadium (although this is bar mount)and Niterider Storm (but not if niterider is unreliable). Other suggestions?
Can anybody out there get me a good deal on a system? Ken in KC?
Thanks all! |
| I have no experience with the new H.I.D. systems, but... | Gill-Again
Nov 29, 2001 6:23 AM | | I have a Nightrider Classic (bar mount) that rocks for everything except twisty singletrack. If you ride the twisty stuff, I'd definitely recommend a helmet mount.
I've heard great things about the Jet light systems and I saw that Light&Motion has a new H.I.D. helmet light out. I couldn't find info on it on their website, but read about it in a magazine.
I don't think the climber's light would work for riding. You need at least 10 watts on the trails and I think most climber's lights have 5 or 6 watts max. |
| only one minor prob. w/ NR here | dante
Nov 29, 2001 6:27 AM | | have a digital headtrip II, and for a little while it seemed to be not making a solid connection where the cord plugged into the light. Brought it into my local LBS and they put it in a clamp to ovalize the plug a bit. Has worked fine since. No problems with the battery (knock on wood) or anything else. Don't know about a climbers headlamp, I'd say you need a minimum of 15 watts to ride. If you have one, give it a try...
Dante |
| Check the Turbocat site... | HTmaniac
Nov 29, 2001 6:27 AM | | sorry I do not have the link handy...
Pricey, but good workmanship & material quality...run mines since 4 years (bar mounted, plenty of good light)
HTmaniac |
| i just went / am going through the same process | julian
Nov 29, 2001 7:17 AM | | and have pretty much decided on JET lights (Phantom Single helmet mount). www.jetdesigns.com (listed prices include shipping) You can order direct through them, with 30 day money back guarantee. Like you I'm ambivalent about NiteRide so I was considering JET, Marwi, and Light and Motion. I think Marwi's are good if you don't want to to spend too much money for a light, like maybe for commuting versus aggressive trail riding. www.bikerbob.com has JET and Marwi's on sale, Ventanarama can hook you up with JET www.mtnhighcyclery.com Email him for specifics.
julian |
| HID is great! A couple of cautions, however... | Ken in KC
Nov 29, 2001 7:23 AM | | First, the bulb is not as robust as a traditional light. The replacement cost for the bulb is $100. Although NR sells a bar mount for the HID, I would not use it. By mounting the light on your helmet, you provide extra shock absorbtion to protect the bulb.
Second, follow the directions for conditioning the battery TO THE LETTER!!!! If you don't your battery will not hold a charge. If you do, however; you will enjoy 4 hours of lighted bliss.
The HID is worth every penny. If you would like to check one out, make a road trip to KC (plenty of antiquing and B&B's for your wife) and ride with us. There is at least 3 night rides a week. In fact, I think I'm riding Friday night if you're interested.
Ken |
| Thanks for the info/invite... | Doc
Nov 29, 2001 7:53 AM | | KC is a little far for a day trip, but mabye one weekend we'll make it down there, I've got friends there I need to visit anyway. (Olathe actually). I'll let you know if we plan on coming down anytime soon. |
| Love the H.I.D...... | cush
Nov 29, 2001 7:38 AM | | I have about 4 rides in with my new NiteRider Storm helmet mount H.I.D. system. It blows away the 15 watts from my Digital Headtrip and Digital NightOwl. It also lasts over twice as long. Yeah, the system is expensive, and so is the replacement lamp but the light and run time make it well worth the initial investment. Since it is so bright, you only need a helmet mount so the cost is as reasonable as buying a bar mount and helmet mount halogen.
The guy I ride with is using an old classic system while he waits for his HID. The comparison makes it look like he is riding by candlelight! |
| How white is the light? | berrywise
Nov 29, 2001 9:22 AM | | I have a nitrider digital pro 6 and a set of vista lights which are both give off really yellow light. I also have in my possesion but don't own a Cateye Stadium light which is pure white light, and might I add rules, can ya make any comparison for me? |
| A lot cooler (whiter)..... | cush
Nov 29, 2001 9:29 AM | | last night I rode with my HID on the helmet and a Digital NightOwl on my handlebars at full 15watt brightness. There was a significant difference. The HID is better.
Side note: we were riding in steady rain and I did not have a visibility problem with the helmet lamp. |
| Jet lights...... | knobbydad®
Nov 29, 2001 9:44 AM | | my Jet Design lights throw a whiter light than the standard NR lights (non HID). We did a side by side of my Jets and Chef's NR lights at Fred³'s and the Jets were noticeably whiter light. Can't say how they stack up to a HID. |
| what type of Jet? | cush
Nov 29, 2001 12:24 PM | | if it is a halogen, you have to compare equal wattages and lamps (bulbs) of the same age because they change over time(that's a hole nutha physics lesson that will cost you $3.00). As for H.I.D., they should all be around the same color temperature (kelvin degrees) but I may be wrong. I would have to see specs on each for that part of the lesson.
cush (former GE Lighting geek) |
| I'm dumb...................................founded | knobbydad®
Nov 29, 2001 12:59 PM | | Who'd a thunk?
Mine were brandy new and Chef's were well.......old.
Mine was a 12 watt vs. his 15 (I think).
The $3.00 is in the mail. |
| The newer NR are much whiter than the older ones... | Metroid
Nov 29, 2001 1:40 PM | | I have a new Digital Evolution 15W which is much whiter than my buddies older Pro-6 (a bit of a yellow tinge to them). I'm taking the Evo back to Performance as soon as my Jet comes in (damn slow UPS, argh). |
| a couple reasons....... | cush
Nov 29, 2001 5:59 PM | | reason 1...
as the filament burns, the byproduct coats the inside of the bulb, reducing light output.
reason 2...
the mirrorized reflector degrades over time and allows light to escape through the back of the lamp (less is reflected out where you need it). GE makes a lamp with a mirror that does not degrade over time called "Constant Color" and would probably work in a NiteRider system if NiteRiders take a standard 2-pin MR lamp. I have not needed to replace mine yet so I have not checked. |
| Yes, they are standard MR-11 bulbs... | Metroid
Nov 30, 2001 6:35 AM | | If you have an inexpensive source for these in both 6V and 12V in medium and wide beam patterns, that would be wonderful. |
| Pro-6; bright, durable and bombproof (nm) | Mossy
Nov 29, 2001 7:50 AM | | |
| Manufacturer? (NM) | Doc
Nov 29, 2001 7:59 AM | | . |
| A 20W Jet Designs will be close to HID in brightness... | Metroid
Nov 29, 2001 8:07 AM | | Jet Designs uses 13.2V batteries on a 12V bulb. This 10% overvolting produces about 40% more light that there would be with a 12V battery. The standard battery will give 2 hrs of burn time with the 20W bulb. If you build your own battery with 4500mAh 4/3 A cells, you could get up to 3 hours of burn time. This will give almost as much light without all of the problems and expense of HID. I ordered the Jet Phantom single with a 20W bulb from Hammerheadbikes.com. Now if it will ever get here so I can take this piece o' crap NR back... |
| Thank you very much.... | cburke
Nov 29, 2001 10:04 AM | | ...for the battery lesson the other day. You got me wanting to get some parts and give it a shot for myself.
Any other sites you would recommend? |
| This should get you started... | Metroid
Nov 29, 2001 1:22 PM | | You can build a better mouse trap!
DIY Links
http://www.nas.com/~petes/bikelite.htm
http://www.geocities.com/sunsetstrip/concert/2301/basic.html
http://www.geocities.com/b1rdjx88/light.html
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/gtolley/bikelight.htm
http://tim.paton.net/bikes/light/tr.htm
Head Unit
Another easier option (but more expensive) would be to buy a premade head unit and mount then add your own battery. Both Nite Rider (make sure you get a 2001 or earlier because the new connectors are proprietary) and Jet offer the heads by separately. Check around, maybe you can find a deal.
Batteries
All the folks above use 12V lead acid batteries because they are super cheap. I was looking for something better and ligher. I think this is where you can really do a lot better than the light companies. You can build a more powerful NiMH battery for much less than the offerings from the light companies (Jet Designs included). Using the Sanyo 4500mAh 4/3 A NiMH batteries from The Battery Station, you can build a battery for half of what the light companies charge and get more power. I priced it out from Jet Designs and you can buy all the parts separately (head unit, mount, fast charger) and add your own battery for the exact same money as buying a complete system. Only with your homemade battery you get 50% more burn time. I really don't know why the light companies aren't using these batteries for their 12V systems. Or with a 6V system you can build a top of the line battery for less than $40.
Bulbs
12 Volt
12V NiMH systems can be easily overvolted (using 11 cells for 13.2V) for brighter light and longer burn times. This slightly decreases the bulb life but most were designed with 3000hrs which will is way more than your battery will last so no biggie. 12V bulbs are really cheap but the batteries are going to cost you more. Cheap 12V MR-11 bulbs available a few places but don't know about the quality...
http://www.lightingfx.com/bulbs.html
http://eclecticlighting.homestead.com/MR16HALOGENS.html
http://www.unitedhalogenbulb.com/MR16PRICE.HTML
6 Volt
A 6V NiMH system will give you big bang for the buck but inexpensive bulbs are hard to find. You can overvolt these using 6 cells for 7.2V but it's 20% over the 6V which doesn't give much more light than a 10% overvolt but will decrease you bulb life more significantly. You can get cheap 6V bulbs here but only in 10W: http://unitedhalogenlight.com/mcart/
Here are some manufacture webpages for 6V MR-11 bulbs you might investigate further for distributors or maybe they'll send samples:
http://www.bri-lux.com/halo.htm
http://www.bright.co.jp/english/prd/fra_hal.html (look under general lighting for MR-11 bulbs)
Cables and Connectors
You can use coax or 18-gauge speaker wire for the cable with a connnector from Radio Shack. Standard size connector is 5.5mm O.D. x 2.5mm I.D. #273-1717 or #910-0902 for the jack and #910-0908 for the plug. Or you could try you local electronics retailer.
Charger
For a charger, again you have a few options. You can buy a premade smart charger like the Jet Designs 5 hour smart charger for less than $50 (easiest). You can get a universal -delta T (ideal) or at least a - delta V charger that will be plug it in and forget it for about the same money (e.g. Maha MH-C777). You can check Radio Shack to see if they have a cheap smart charger that will work for you. Or you can get a cheapo DC power source with controled current and use a timer (risky though).
Math
There is some engineering involved in building your own system but the math is pretty simple.
Burn Time = Voltage x AmpHours
------------------
Bulb Wattage
Also, you can't mix and match batteries and bulbs. In other words you can't use a 12V bulb with a 6V battery or vise versa.
For other info, see clary's post here: http://forums13.consumerreview.com/crforum?13@@.ee823d9/6
As you can see, I've done quite a bit of research on the subject. I bought the Jet helmet light because I didn't want to mess with building my own right now plus there's the advantage of a warranty (you do get something for your money). I also found a deal on a Nite Rider light and mount with no battery. I'm going to build a bar mount out of that with a flood bulb using a homemade battery when I get around to it.
Good luck and have fun!!! |
| Wow. Thanks a ton. | cburke
Nov 30, 2001 8:30 AM | | nada |
| re: I need help choosing a light system.... | Critical mass of one!
Nov 29, 2001 8:27 AM | | I raced with the HID at the 24hours of Rocky Hill here in Texas last month. It was awesome. It's so bright that it totally neutralizes all the lights on the trail around you. People see you coming and they just let you pass because it disorients them. I got 2 full laps out of mine (about 2:20) and it was still going strong, I'm sure I could have gotten another full lap out of it. I wasn't even concerned about having it charged while all the other people were running around like chickens with the heads chopped off. I also was driving down a dark back woods road in Ruston, LA and turned on the HID and off my headlights and was able to drive by it. |
| Did the same race... | TechniKal
Nov 29, 2001 10:21 AM | | The night first lap, I used a 12 watt Performance/Marwi helmet light. Anytime I'd get near someone with a HID, the HID light would completely wipe out my light. I'd have to either speed way up or, or pull over and let them pass. The next lap out, I used a 20 watt JET helmet light. No more problems with HID users - the JET was bright enough to hold its own. |
| I just bought the Light & Motion ARC HID and... | andy f.
Nov 29, 2001 8:45 AM | | I can't tell you anything about it yet. It shipped from Speedgoat 2 days ago, should be here tomorrow or Monday. One nice thing is that they charged me $40 less than the price posted on their website.
I chose the L&M HID over the NightRider HID based on the reviews on this site. It seems that the L&M is lighter, has a more uniform beam pattern (due to grinding their own reflectors - both use the same bulb made by Solarc), and is more reliable (initial reports, both are pretty new). |
| I dunno about these folks who.... | commutant
Nov 29, 2001 8:55 AM | | can't get their niterider systems to work. I do know that I have the NR trailrat 2.0 and a NR digital head trip that have worked without flaw for some time now. All the mounting stuff and everything else was had for just under $300.00. Which, to me, is an enormous sum to offer up only for lights. However, since the day I nervously made the purchase I have been repaid 10-fold with great riding experiences, it's totally worth it!
Leo |
| economics of lighting systems | chupacabra
Nov 29, 2001 9:02 AM | | These lighting companies are ripping people off. I'm looking into building my own light, in investigating how to do it, I easily found halogen lights for sale at home depot, costing roughly 7 bucks a piece. At volume, these would be cheaper. Consumer NimH batteries run about 40 bucks for 4 AA 1800 mAh batteries, and a bit more for C cells, so figure 25 bucks tops at volume. Chargers are about 30 or 40 bucks, and the chargers that come with lighting systems are usually simpler than that, call it 20 bucks to be safe. Figure 20-30 bucks for the mounting hardware, assembly, and wires, and if you want a digital system, figure about 10 bucks in circuitry and assembly. Add it up, and even for a dual lamp system, the manufacturers cost for a dual lamp system would come in at about 99 bucks. I'm not against them making a profit, but NR charges 200+ for this system. It gets really ridiculous when you look at HID systems. Niteriders latest hid's are 350+. This system only uses one bulb, and no intelligent power monitor, so figure 10 bucks less without the intelligent circuit. HID lights are more expensive, but at quantity, including ballast, they run 40 bucks. So figure Niteriders cost on the HID is 130. I'd build a HID, only they're only cheap in volume. I'll bet in a few years, you'll be able to buy a HID bulb for 40 bucks. |
| Voodoo Economics... | Bonee
Nov 29, 2001 9:13 AM | | In addition to supplies, they also have to cover for labor costs, a factory, a customer service department, sales commissions, etc, etc, etc. The economic situation you describe pretty much fits every single profitable company, plus a bunch of the unprofitable ones too.
If you like to tinker around with this stuff, build your own a be happy. I was happy to pay the $150-$200 per system price that I paid for my Marwi and Light and Motion lighting systems. Great quality, great lights, great charger systems. If they made a small profit off me in the end, good for them. |
| laffer curve out loud | chupacabra
Nov 29, 2001 10:16 AM | | I'm not implying that profit is bad, or that they don't have other costs. I think the inconsistent pricing is what makes me mad. |
| I hear ya... | Bonee
Nov 29, 2001 10:52 AM | | Ya, $350+ is expensive. I agree. Personally I wouldn't buy one. But if people are buying it for $350...
supply. demand. The only way to bring the price down is to not buy them, so you and I are doing our part. I wouldn't get mad at them, just don't buy it. |
| simple economics | dante
Nov 29, 2001 11:36 AM | | The only way to get NR (or any of the others) to lower their prices, is to come out with a cheaper alternative. You can make an HID light for 120? Do it, and sell it for 200. Sell enough, and NR will be forced to lower their prices (and you also make a boatload of money). Now go deal with consumer issues, warranties, some idiot who flipped his bike and mashed his light into a rock and now wants a refund and crap like that. And overhead. And employees. And marketing to get your idea out there (like charging at 24 hour races). That's what capitalism is, if you find out you can offer a product cheaper (and still make profit), you do, and that brings down the price for the whole industry.
Dante
(damn, wish all college was as easy as eco) |
| www.turbocatusa.com [nm] | Russ-Ale
Nov 29, 2001 10:08 AM | | |
| Don't limit yourself to HID...... | Ventanarama
Nov 29, 2001 10:22 AM | | HID sytems are great and put out tons of light with good run time. But, if I were you I wouldn't limit your choices to them. In my opinion, for that amount of money it's better to get two halogen systems (one bar mount & one helmet). A Petzl type headlamp doesn't cut it, except as an emergency backup light in case your system fails. Jet systmes are great and put out lots of light (my 12w Jet is much brighter than the NR 15w systems). I've used numerous different systems from most of the major manufacturers and would recommend Jet, L&M, or Turbocat over NR. Only drawback to TurboCat is their lack of a smart/rapid charger, which is too bad because their construction is top-notch. Can make you a sweet deal on Jet if you're interested.
Larry Mettler
www.mtnhighcyclery.com |
| I'll take a look at them and call if I'm interested, thanks! | Doc
Nov 29, 2001 10:48 AM | | nm |
| Hey Doc, here's what I use. | Ska!
Nov 29, 2001 12:39 PM | | I've been using Norco's BLT lighting systems for a couple of years now. They're seriously great for the price and they've been through torrential rains, sleet, snow, mud, crash after crash, temperatures well below zero, ultra hot sticky temps basically, you name it they've been there with me and they're still going strong. Don't know what the reviews are like for them but I can tell you that I have not one complaint about them.
I use the Explorers on my bars. One's a 6 watt halogen and the other is a 15.
On my helmet I use the Blitz (15 watt halogen). Burns for hours too.
Great systems. Click here if you want to read more. I intend on going to NiCad later but when I do, I'll be sticking with the company that has worked for me BLT.
Hope it helps. Good luck and have fun!
Ska! |
| A lot of the guys I ride with use them..... | CraigH
Nov 29, 2001 1:43 PM | | and are happy. They are made here in Vancouver, or should I say BLT is based here in Vancouver.
Personally, I've been using NiteRider stuff.
Pro-6 on the bar, HeadTrip on the helment, and just bought a used Trailrat for commuting. |
| |
