|   Unbelievable!! Sea Otter Classic Rant!!! SANDBAGGER? | majorclyde
Sep 10, 2003 4:05 PM | | So I have my first race under my belt and I will be competing in two more races this fall. So I set a goal for next season to compete in the Sea Otter Classic. Since I will hopefully be preriding the course a few times this winter I looked up some of the Clydesdale race results thinking that I can monitor my progress against past results.
So I looked up what would be my class. Beginner Clydesdale. The winner had a time of 1:26. Second Place was 1:29 and third was 1:31.
So for comparison I looked at the Sport class and noticed some glaring problems. The sport class winner had a time of 1:32 which would have been good for 4th place in the "Beginner" class. So the top 3 "beginners" would have placed 1,2,and 3 in the Sport class!!!! But it didn't stop there. I went down the beginners list and found that the Top 10 "beginner" clydesdales would have all placed in the Top 5 in the Sport class.
And just for kicks I looked up the expert class and found that the Top 2 BEGINNERS would have made the podium in the EXPERT class!!! I just had to laugh when I saw the picture of the winners podium. They must be so proud. Come on guys...have the balls to race in the class you should be racing in. If I was a prick I would list their names, but let's just hope they move up a class next year.
For me I think I'm going to race expert. Why not. Seems like the results would be about the same. Of course none of this makes a big difference to me since I'm not going to win or anything. Just a little discouraging to the REAL beginners to know that no matter how hard I train over the winter that I'll never get a fair shot.
By the way....The regular mens classes aren't much better. Couldn't really compare the expert class since they go two laps, but the Beginner and Sport class top 10 looked almost identical. It's too bad.
So is this what they call sandbagging? |
| Sport class fills up fast... | Hi Life
Sep 10, 2003 4:28 PM | | Maybe their only choice was to ride beginner. Isn't expert class twice the distance? |
| so it's filled | george_da_trog
Sep 11, 2003 6:59 AM | | They could have easily entered the race in their age group as sport riders. Plus, the sea otter has an "other" category for people who just couldn't make it into their field. It'd be better to race 'other' and just race against yourself. Than to steal the podium spot from a true beginner who deserves recognition.
The only excuse is if it was their first race. But odds are they were just sandbaggers plain and simple. Sandbagging hurts racing. It discourages true begginers from getting into racing.
george |
| Sport Clydsdales...100 spots....39 competitors | majorclyde
Sep 11, 2003 7:42 AM | | Not even close to being filled.
Also the clydsdales all do 18 miles. Even the experts.
http://www.seaotterclassic.com/event-desc_mtb-xc.htm
Sandbagging....=) |
| maybe they had no choice | gfox
Sep 10, 2003 4:42 PM | | Here in BC unlicensed racers are in the same category as beginners. They could be the fittest people in the world, and be albe to stomp the expert field, but unless they purchased a year long race licence, costing over $100 CDN, they must race in beginner.
Also, according to cycling BC rules, you must start in beginner and work your way up. Again, a fit person starting in beginner could trounce the field (I have seen it happen). A friend of mine was racig sport for a while and wanted to move to expert but wasn't allowed since she didn't have enough points to move her up.
Sometimes there are rules, and sometimes those rules may not be fair to everyone.
My thoughts.
greg |
| $100 CDN | Bill Carson
Sep 11, 2003 7:00 AM | | $100 CDN doesn't sound like much. Shouldn't Canada be switched to the euro by now? |
| $100 CDN | dirttorpedo
Sep 11, 2003 7:58 AM | | Nah, we're holding out for the Yankee dollah. Of course you'll have to colour code your bills and get rid of those damn singles before we make the switch. I mean how retro is that? Do you guys ride single cro mo speed ridgids? I think not! : ) |
| they had plenty of choices | george_da_trog
Sep 11, 2003 7:00 AM | | You can buy a one day sports license.
george |
| Are you sure these are all the same distances? | radair
Sep 11, 2003 3:22 AM | | Typically Beginners will have a shorter course than Sports and the Expert course will be longer than both. I'm not sure your comparing apples to apples, but I don't know. |
| Expert was 36 miles. | Bhlaffy
Sep 11, 2003 3:57 AM | | http://www.seaotterclassic.com/event-desc_mtb-xc.htm
According to that site beginner and sport rode 18 miles and expert 36. It is lame that racing is full of sandbaggers. |
| Theres no age limits.. | Jrm
Sep 11, 2003 6:30 AM | | When i raced Clydes, i was racing against 24 year old UCLA football players. Needless to say i got my butt kicked. IMO: race in your age bracketr in beginner |
| ucla sucks | fut
Sep 11, 2003 7:54 AM | | |
| Yep. sandbaggers are at the Sea Otter Classic | WarrGuru
Sep 11, 2003 6:35 AM | | Next year will, hopefully, be my 3rd year racing Mens Beginner XC at the Sea Otter. It's very frustrating to compete with other non-beginnners. I just watch my time each year. I make sure that I do better each time. I went from over 2 hours and 40 minutes (slow, I know, but I really am a beginner) in my first race to around 1 hour 54 in my second race. That's still not good, but it's at least in the top 50%. Without sandbaggers, I'd probably be in the top 25....if not the top 10.
I know that it's doubtful that I'll win, but if I do, I'll immediately move up to Sport Class. I'd rather be in the correct class and not finish in the top 10 than be a weenie like so many racers and finish top 10 in a lower class.
I figure that these people need to finish high so that they can brag and have people think they are great.....while in reality, they are egotistical children that don't have the guts to race against real racers....in the proper class.
Sandbagging will never stop so get used to it. Some people get off on winning so much, they would race against paraplegics and brag about the win. They're worthless. |
| that doesn't make any sense | mr_spin
Sep 11, 2003 7:02 AM | | You say it's your 3rd time racing this course as a beginner, then "It's very frustrating to compete with other non-beginnners."
If this is your 3rd time, doesn't that make you non-beginner also? |
| 3 years in beginner? | radair
Sep 11, 2003 9:15 AM | | he's a non-beginner alright. |
| 10 years in beginner... | K-Zero
Sep 11, 2003 9:54 AM | | I know a guy who has raced off & on for last 10 years, and he's still in beginner class. But I wouldn't consider him a sandbagger since he only races once a year (if that) and he does it for fun (i.e. never in podium contention).
Compare him to someone who races 10 times/year and consistantly places in a top 10...now that would be sandbagging even if he'd only raced for last 18 month.
My point is, years of racing alone shouldn't be used to judge one's racing classification. FYI, NORBA rule states that a racer must move up a class after placing in top 5 five times. |
| No...Not at all | WarrGuru
Sep 11, 2003 2:09 PM | | First of all......next year will be my third time. I've done that race twice. I finished around 73rd place the first year and 43rd or so the second year. I would have started at Novice, but the Sea Otter doesn't have that class. The classes are not based on lenght of time riding. They're based on ability (finish times).
I will stay in beginner until I can finish in the top 10....then I'll move to sport.
When I said that "It's very frustrating to compete with other non-beginnners." , I meant that the top 10 (at least) riders in the Beginners class should be in Sport Class. In fact, the Top 10 riders in the beginners class had the same times as the Top 10 Sport riders. Imagine that. |
| Answers to your questions. They are not Sandbaggers. | LOGIC MAN
Sep 11, 2003 6:59 AM | | Well, atleast the Clydesdales arent. Clydesdale just means over 200 lbs or something. SO that could be anyone. An ex-pro an obese beginner, whoever.
Also, keep in mind that last year the course went from really slow in the morning with GREASY mud to very fast in the afternoon. This really threw off all the lap times.
How could you say the top two beginners would have podiumed in the Expert class? How do you figure? The experts went twice as far. And that means more than twice the time and more than twice as hard. You have to pace yourself much more for a 2.5-3hr race than you do for a short one hour sprint.
Race the expert class if you want. See how you do.
As for the beginners being as fast as the sport class, could be, does that mean theyre not a beginner? No. Maybe its a future John Tomac racing for his first time, or just some talented dude who hardly trained. You never know.
Dont worry about it and go race. ITs about having fun and fulfilling your competitive needs. |
| they sure are | george_da_trog
Sep 11, 2003 7:05 AM | | Many races just have 'clydesdale', but the sea otter is big enough that it has beginner, sport and expert cydesdale. All the big races have people sandbagging all beginers categories.
There is a local racer who's raced beginner for the past 4 years, this last year alone he's won 2 or 3 races and placed top 3 a handful of times. Will he upgrade? Hasn't yet.
george |
| look a little closer at the times before spouting off please... | majorclyde
Sep 11, 2003 7:37 AM | | The expert clydsdales only went one lap (18 miles). Experts in every other class for men did two laps (36 miles). As one can easily see by looking at the times, the top 3 experts in the clydesdale class had times ranging from 1:24 to 1:31. If that was their time for 36 miles that would have beaten the pros.
If you don't believe me then go to this site. Lists, start times and distances for each race.
http://www.seaotterclassic.com/event-desc_mtb-xc.htm
And...if one or two of the beginners were way out in front I wouldn't even be posting no big deal. But when the entire top 10 of a beginner class had times faster than any of the top 5 in the sport class you can't convince me that there isn't some major sandbagging going on.
I'll accept the argument about the course conditions possibly contributing to the times. The Sport and expert class started at 8:30 while the Beginners started at 10:00. Possibly explains some of it, but come on.... |
| My bad, I thought there was only one Clydesdale class. | LOGIC MAN
Sep 11, 2003 11:25 AM | | Sorry. The course did change drastically though. It went from real slow to real fast in a matter of hours. People were on hands and knees trying to get up and down the trails in the morning, so I heard.
Better off comparing 2002 results for times, 2003 is worthless. |
| There will ALWAYS be sanbaggers at the sea otter.......... | merlin
Sep 11, 2003 7:46 AM | | your going to be frustrated big time if you don't change your race to goal to doing the best YOU can do. There will always be some sandbagger or gifted freak who kicks your butt. I've been racing for 2 years now, used a coach, train 6 days a week, and get my butt kicked in sport class all the time by people should be in Expert class. |
| sea otter is sandbagger capital of the world | lukeduke
Sep 11, 2003 7:59 AM | | i race in the expert clydesdales too, very rough class. You think of a clydesdale being an overwieght slightly slower guy right? Well, i am not too slow, but i am forced to race with the experts in clydesdale because my NORBA license lists me as an expert in DH, so i can not go down 2 classes from that and race beginner XC (even though that is where i realistically should be) I am 5'10" tall and weigh 205. Problem is, that there are guys that are 6'4" 205 and totally RIPPED!!! I raced against this guy at the Napa WC 2 years ago that was 6'4" tall, and maybe 202 and had probably 2% body fat. 22lb factory race IF bike, matching skin suit and helmet, guy ran lap times close to the fastest expert guys (in any age group). He qualified for clydesdale, did race in the top class, but was clearly not within the "intent" of the class. that is just the way it goes... |
| The course changed as the day went on | Pohukai
Sep 11, 2003 8:29 AM | | Regardless of the race category, the earlier racers had the most difficult course. I raced early and it was almost impossible to ride the single track; you had to ride the grass to get ANY type of traction. I finished caked with mud. My wife raced about 1 hour later and came in extremely clean. She was able to ride the single track without any problem. |
| Whoa! Timeout! Here's a thought... | glenzx
Sep 11, 2003 9:49 AM | | All (three) races I have been in, and the dozens I've read about have had SHORTER/EASIER courses for the beginner classes. The sport usually have a moderately harder course while expert & pro have the killer course.... This can be accomplished by using say a 8-10 mile course and having 1,2,3 or 4 laps respectively. I know at Anglefire (Chile Challenge Race) the pros were having similar times to the sport guys, but had done a WHOLE 'NOTHER LAP! If one only looked at the times/standings you'd think us mid-pack sport guys were near-pro level competitors!!! Is this possibly the case?
Just a thought! |
| let's recap | george_da_trog
Sep 11, 2003 10:36 AM | | Beginners, Sports, and Expert Clydesdale race the same course.
Since they all race the same course over the same distance we can reasonably compare lap times and really spot the sandbaggers.
george |
| thought it said expert did 2 laps (nm) | glenzx
Sep 11, 2003 11:29 AM | | |
| but that's not a fair comparison... | *rt*
Sep 11, 2003 11:53 AM | | if beginners do 2 laps, sport does 3 laps and expert does 4 laps comparing lap times isn't going to work that well since the strategy for a 4 lap race is going to be very different from the strategy in a 2 lap race. someone mentioned this earlier. an expert doing a 2 lap race is likely to go balls to the wall where as if s/he is doing a 4 lap race the lap times will likely be slower to prevent blowing up mid race.
so if you compare lap times for different length races (even if the laps themselves are the same length across classes) you're really comparing apples and asian pears -- they look similar but they taste really different.
rt |
| NOT COMPARING DIFFERENT DISTANCES!!! | majorclyde
Sep 11, 2003 12:06 PM | | Let's get this straight!!! Though this has been clarified at least twice in this thread. Clydesdales ALL do one 18 mile loop. Every class. Beginners - 18 mile loop. Sport - 18 mile loop. Expert - 18 mile loop.
The experts in the other men's classes did 2 laps.
So we are not comparing lap times on different distances. We are comparing the TOTAL time for multiple classes riding the SAME distance.
We ARE comparing apples to apples. |
| evidently it's not as clear as you think | *rt*
Sep 11, 2003 12:12 PM | | so, you're comparing beginner clydes' times to expert clydes' times?
in that case, i couldn't say one way or the other. maybe there just isn't any difference between the skill level across the 3 classes of clydes. or maybe there are just a ton of sandbaggers racing beginner clyde.
if you had fun, what difference does it make? not to mention, Sea Otter happened, what, like 6 months ago? why are you so upset about this now?
rt |
| that's exactly what my original... | majorclyde
Sep 11, 2003 1:22 PM | | ...post was all about. The evidence of sandbaggers across the clydesdale class of Sea Otter. I was looking up times so I can preride the course for NEXT years race and get an estimation on where I needed to be to compete. It was then that I realized that it didn't seem to matter what class it was because the top times were pretty much the same across each class. I didn't expect it to turn into a major debate about the state of mountain bike racing. =) Just making an observation that the top three "beginners" clydesdales would have won the Sport clydesdale class. Just didn't seem right to me. |
| you're right, it's not right, it's not new either.... | george_da_trog
Sep 11, 2003 2:29 PM | | From 1997
http://www.cyclecalifornia.com/Sandbagging.html
george |
| who you calling a sandbagger :) | OGDHr
Sep 11, 2003 10:14 AM | |  |
| not me :) | reed
Sep 11, 2003 12:23 PM | | .jpg)
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| those pants make your butt look big :) | OGDHr
Sep 11, 2003 1:36 PM | | |
| that's because my butt WAS big then.... | reed
Sep 11, 2003 1:50 PM | | it's 30 lbs smaller now :)
now your butt on the other hand... |
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