|   * 9/11 * | DGC
Sep 11, 2003 7:20 AM | | reguardless of how you feel about the 9/11 attacks 2 years ago, it might be nice if we all just take a minute to remember the nearly 2800 innocent people who died that day. |
| thanks | pfunk
Sep 11, 2003 7:39 AM | | It's been on my mind for a few days now |
| absolutely.... | namaSSte
Sep 11, 2003 7:45 AM | | and I'd add to remember those that they left behind. I can't imagine how they must feel, not just today, but everyday.
Thanks and peace. |
| And don't forget... | mtbbrian
Sep 11, 2003 8:00 AM | | The soldiers, airmen, marines, and saliors that are "over there" on our behalf, especially those that have died.
HOOAHH!
Brian |
| wakeup call for me this morning | Jm_
Sep 11, 2003 7:52 AM | | As we were doing our run-up on our twin engine airplane this morning before takeoff. Looked across the field and saw the flag at half staff. Kind of hits home when you are about to takeoff in an airplane. |
| re: * 9/11 * | msisti
Sep 11, 2003 7:57 AM | | It will certainly be in my thoughts as I enjoy biking this weekend |
| reflection while biking | pfunk
Sep 11, 2003 8:21 AM | | I had only been riding for a few months when it happened. I remember going for a ride that weekend and feeling so strange. For a while, even though it happened on the other side of the country, I didn't see how anything could ever be the same again. I rode extra slow and looked at the scenery more. It felt strange that the world around me was so beautiful and un-changed at the same time that such destruction had taken place. I felt lucky to be alive. |
| Reflected -Same here... | mtbbrian
Sep 11, 2003 8:47 AM | | I rode that weekend, after finally getting home from a conference.
I did a lot a relection on that ride. Thinking about those that died, those that famlies that lost someone.
Hoping that something good would come of this tragedy.
Anyway...
Great post!
GOD BLESS THE USA!
Brian |
| Same here....I went for a ride that morning... | Ebo
Sep 11, 2003 9:26 AM | | thinking about how life can be both so beautiful and also so morbid. Then I thought about what I would tell my young daughter on her 9/11 birthday. She just turned 6 years old and was very confused. How could something so horrible happen on her birthday she asked me. Her birthday will always mark a very tragic event but also a time to celebrate her life. God bless all. |
| re: * 9/11 * | DGC
Sep 11, 2003 12:34 PM | | That day and the following will always be etched in my mind....I was on my way to Vail Colorado to watch the worlds in 2001 and do some riding, and vacation a bit. I was sitting in a hotel room at the Grand Canyon still en route to the worlds watching it live on tv as plane #2 hit the tower. I dont really have words to describe what I felt then, but I do now still weep and tear up over all of this, and my feelings must not even come close to or compare to those who had lost someone that day.
In Vail it was so fitting at the end of the womens xc race to see an American win and.....carry the American flag across the finish line. |
| Please keep in mind | Does it really matter?
Sep 11, 2003 9:42 AM | | That many people the world over don't share your sympathies. Not all of the nearly 3000 people killed were innocent. They were, after all, part of the Great American Machine that is slowly fucking up the world.
It's sad that human life was lost, yes, but when you lie down with dogs you get fleas. No American is truly innocent; every penny out of your pocket, every tax dollar you pay goes to support the atrocities and evil that your government, with the help of its allies, perpetrate all over the world.
Terrorists suck, murder sucks, but it's not like your government and your nation is any better.
Welcome to life the way so much of the rest of the world lives it. Sucks that you can't just turn on the TV and pretend its in some far off land, doesn't it?
No doubt you'll rag on me as a hater, that's ok, just go back to believing that the good ole' USA did absolutely nothing to bring this on itself. |
| Please keep in mind | pfunk
Sep 11, 2003 10:07 AM | | Whether or not anyone feels that some of the things you're saying are true, how could anyone not share these sympathies. People died, it's sad. Doesn't matter where it happened, or to whom, it's tragic. That simple.
BTW - feel free to leave the country if you're so disgusted by all of us pbllllt :p
edit: I hate to feed the troll. I'm not saying you don't have a right to your political views. I may even share some of them on some level (although I disagree with alot of what you said here), but the point is, say it tomorrow. This day is for the victims and their families, and I don't care what you say, they were all victims. |
| AMEN PFUNK!! (NM) | mtbbrian
Sep 11, 2003 10:23 AM | | |
| Thankfully, and we'll both agree on this I'm sure.. | Does it really matter?
Sep 11, 2003 10:35 AM | | I don't live in the USSA.
Today is a day for the victims, yes, but I think it should also be a day for introspection. A day for thinking about how out of control your government is and how people are willing to forgo their civil rights for a little temporary security. There's a good quote that represents what I'm thinking but I can't remember what it is or who said it. Read your own history, folks, 'cos you, collectively, are not living up to what your country was meant to be.
The thing is that it's no so much that I have a distaste for America, it's that I'm bothered by what you, as voting american citizens, have allowed your country to become since 1776. What should have been a beacon for freedom and enlightenment, for justice and all those good things, is now a beacon for crass commercialism and northamerican monoculture. You guys are the most powerful nation in the world and you could do so much good, but you don't.
People should be more important than oil. |
| This clinches it, you are clueless | C.J.
Sep 11, 2003 10:58 AM | | I've watched you make a fool of yourself countless times and thought nothing of it.
I'm flattered that you think that the individuals on this board have that much power, that we could influence so much, that we could "all just get along" if the omnipotent, all-powerful American public just said so.
You must have a Braille keyboard. The few times you pull your head out for air, how do you see the keys through all the brown? |
| But you all *could* make a difference... | Does it really matter?
Sep 11, 2003 11:05 AM | | Isn't that the beauty of democracy and your system? You guys had a revolution once, you could do it again. It sounds to me like you don't have any faith in the people in the USA, whereas I think that with time and work a difference could be made.
Enjoy your defeatist comfort. You deserve the quality of leadership that you have if you're not doing anything to change it. |
| So "The Rear Admiral" is this your new psuedonym or just | Pete.
Sep 11, 2003 10:24 AM | | ...another throwaway?
What a nymshifting fruitcake you are. |
| I don't really care. My name isn't important anyways. (nm) | Does it really matter?
Sep 11, 2003 10:33 AM | | |
| I don't really care. My name isn't important anyways. (nm) | Sodbuster
Sep 11, 2003 5:48 PM | | My name isn't important anyway. |
| I see what you are getting at... | pimpbot
Sep 11, 2003 11:16 AM | | ... but I'd rather believe that nobody asks for a plane to be hurled into two highrise buildings. I fully get that our gov't is less than angelic. I don't feel that they are 100% evil, but there are some really bad things happening up there, which were made worse by the 9/11 acts.
And BTW, that point about nobody's innocent in America is total bullshit. I personally do what I think is right for the world, not nessisarily for my country. To take an idea from Pres. Kennedy, I breathe the world's air, not America's. Just because the Gov't used my tax dollars for something I don't aprrove of doesn't mean I'm guilty. There has to be some kind of concensus about where that money goes, and I do my best to see it gets used best. In reality, some other folks ultimately decided.
As a former gov't employee myself, I've seen how our gov't works on a small scale. From my POV, most of these folks are just doing what they think is best, but a minority are just looking to line their pockets with a cushy job, and they are the ones messing it all up for everybody. Sorta like any other organization out there.
But the further up you go, the crazier it gets. I've seen people at the top make moves that will totally cripple the organizaion, just to look good for the short term... just for the brownie points. It's amazing. Those folks are the truely evil element, and unfortunately, those are the folks who tend to rise to the top.
The saying is true, power corrupts. That's the real issue. The USA has so much power that it feels it should wield it as it sees fit, instead of doing the right thing.
We no longer need to live in an us against them kind of world. It would be better to figure out how to live in a world where can all get what we need and still take care of everybody's basic needs. Once that happens, I'll bet anyting that terrorism will be a thing of the past.
I also understand that it's cool to bash Americans in other countries (especially Europe), when you should be bashing our gov't. You cannot hold individuals personally responsable for what their gov't does. You can only hold each of us 1/275,000,000 th responsable at best, and you know what? I'm doing what I can to get my ideal gov't in office and what I can to make the world better through my actions. Not everybody agrees with me here. |
| Perhaps You Should Boycott American Products? | Ken in KC.
Sep 11, 2003 11:26 AM | | You could start with not posting on MTBR.
You seem to be clueless on many levels, yet you whine about Pete's personality? Today, the evil empire is your target on a day when husbands, wives, fathers, mothers, daughter and sons died at the hands of murderers? That's a nice touch.
Ken |
| I welcome the arguement myself... | pimpbot
Sep 11, 2003 11:34 AM | | ...even if it is from a narrow minded pinhead. Wups, sorry, that was a personal attack against our "no american is innocent' poster. Sorry about that. My bad.
OTOH, it is in poor taste to go to a funeral and publicly bash the guy in the coffin, ya know? |
| I guess respect for the dead... | Does it really matter?
Sep 11, 2003 11:50 AM | | ...can be a convenient way to avoid discussing the issues for some people. I don't buy it. When the cost of your countries actions can be so egregious I say to hell with decorum. |
| Sad... | Ken in KC.
Sep 11, 2003 12:00 PM | | That you feel a mountain bike forum is the appropriate place for discussing political issues. I don't buy your anger. Otherwise you wouldn't still be here. Your playing both sides of the fence. As I've suggested before, if you don't like the US, then stop using it's products, starting with MTBR. Unless of course, your outrage is feigned, and you're a hypocrit.
I think you're very fortunate to live in fantasy land where your government is perfect, never makes decisions based on greed and political motivations, and always makes decisions based on what's best for the long term interests of the world. It's also fantastic that you have the power, control and influence to be able to change the politcal direction of your country through mountain biking bulletin boards.
Get a clue, pansy spaz.
Ken |
| Hey, I didn't start the thread... | Does it really matter?
Sep 11, 2003 12:09 PM | | ...someone else posted something non-mtb related about 11-Sep. I'm just here giving another opinion.
I'm not asking you to buy my anger, and I'm not playing both sides of the fence. Your argumentative skills don't seem to let you stick to point as you seem to devolve into attacking me.
Do you have cognitive issues such that you actually think that I think I "live in a fantasy land where your government is perfect, never makes decisions based on greed and political motivations, and always makes decisions based on what's best for the long term interests of the world"? Wow, that's weak.
Here's what you probably really meant to say "I'm too lazy to change things, I'm too scared to try and make a real difference. Fuck democracy. It's so much easier to attack the messenger than the message". |
| Funny and Sad... | Ken in KC.
Sep 11, 2003 12:20 PM | | I'm not attacking you, any more than your attacking me. In fact, I think you'll find that I'm simply applying your logic and arguments right back at you. And you can't understand that. That's sad.
Yes, I actually think that you live in the country of fantasy land. Pot, meet kettle.
No, what I meant to say is that you've already indicated that you think the Canadian Government is more fucked up than the US, yet you seem to have all the answer for us "yanks", but are too lazy to change things, to scared to try and make a difference. Fuck democracy. It's so much easier to attack the messenger... indeed. Ironic, no?
Ken |
| chuckle... | Does it really matter?
Sep 11, 2003 12:43 PM | | "but are too lazy to change things, to scared to try and make a difference"
I'm working on changing things up here, but your country, and that means on a fundamental level, YOU, are the ones causing the most problems. Whatever issues I have personally, whatever issues Canada has, pale in comparison to yours.
Can't wait to see your next retort. |
| The Next Retort... | Ken in KC.
Sep 11, 2003 12:59 PM | | I'm working on changing things up here, but your country, and that means on a fundamental level, YOU, are the ones causing the most problems. Whatever issues I have personally, whatever issues Canada has, pale in comparison to yours.
I don't think I understand. So because my government is more screwed up than your government, you're obligated to conclude that those who died on 9/11 deserved to die? You, my friend are sick and twisted. Please stay in Canada. We've already worked through the unabomber, Ted Bundy and Jeffery Dalmer. We don't need another one.
Ken |
| You're right, you don't understand (nm) | Does it really matter?
Sep 11, 2003 1:11 PM | | |
| You're a bit of a dickhead, aren't you? | pimpbot
Sep 11, 2003 12:08 PM | | It just seems to me that you have a total disregard for peoples feelings here. All you can say is 'well, it's yoru own dang fault'
I'm trying to figure out why you are posting here. What are you trying to accomplish? Did you just chime in here to make everybody feel bad? Are you trying to displace some of your anger towards the world on us? Do you blambe all Germans for what happened in WW2? Peddle that crap somwerhe else.
You are accusing us of being ignorant apathetics, when I can tell you that most of the folks who post here are not. I don't agree with everybody here politically, but that's fine. In a country where it seems that the majority wants us off the trails altogether, mt bikers have done a good job of organizing ourselves into a fairly strong movement to keep trail access open, which is contrary to your arguement. Granted, Americans in general have become so disillusioned with the system that they don't see the point in voting sothey don't, and others just vote without being informed, but don't assume we are all like that. If you assume that, you are as much a part of the problem as you think we are.
Eat me, Mr. 209.226.67.168 or whoeverthefuckyouare. |
| Oooo... tough guy, ad hominem... | Does it really matter?
Sep 11, 2003 12:18 PM | | And yeah, it is your faults, you had it coming. Face it. When you're a bully and you slap the little guy around all the time, don't be surprised when they throw a brick through your window, even if they have a piss poor reason for doing it.
And yeah, I do blame all Germans that were around at the time of WWII for what happened then. They had a chance to stand up and be counted, to stand up and give their lives if need be, to stop the Nazi machine. Not enough of them cared to, and not enough of them did. But at least most modern Germans are incredibly willing to talk about their history and who/what/where/when/why they went wrong. That's alot more than I can say about America, land of the myopic.
I don't have much regard for American's feelings when it comes to 11-Sep, that is true. All you seem to do is wallow in grief and cry "it's not our fault! how dare you suggest otherwise!". |
| Wow, you're worldly.... | Ken in KC.
Sep 11, 2003 12:30 PM | | "But at least most modern Germans are incredibly willing to talk about their history and who/what/where/when/why they went wrong."
Really? That's not been my experience in Germany. As individuals, they are willing to discuss WW2, but as a matter of public policy, they find it embarassing and would love to be able to never discuss it again. In fact, the German Neo-Nazi movement is fairly strong in Germany, because the government is embarassed that there is even such a thing as a new Neo-nazi movement. Rather than act against it, the German government ignires it and hopes that it goes away. Not my opinion, BTW, but the opinion of a number of my friends who are Germans living both in Germany, in Canada and in Luxembourg.
"I don't have much regard for American's feelings when it comes to 11-Sep, that is true. All you seem to do is wallow in grief and cry "it's not our fault! how dare you suggest otherwise!". "
This is an all time classic. You wallow and whine because Pete was mean to you, and then you uncork a dusey like this. Nice touch of class. And you call Americans ugly.
Ken |
| Wow, you're worldly.... | pimpbot
Sep 11, 2003 12:41 PM | | The reason I brought up WW2 is that I hosted an exhcange student from Berlin for a year. He told me that some the kids at school kept calling him a Nazi, and he really didn't understand why. He felt really ashamed about it because of his country's history, but he had nothing to do with the Nazi movement. In fact, his brother was beaten up by some Neo Nazis just for looking 'queer', which his brother is not.
I see this guy as the kids in school who called my host son a Nazi. He doesn't even have the guts to use his regular handle on this board, the coward.
The other issue about Geramny is that they have an unhealthy view of free speech, IMO. The Neo Nazis are outright illegal there, therefore it drives them underground and makes it seem outlaw-ish. Nobody can talk about it, but they should. |
| He doesn't even have the guts to use his regular handle on this | Does it really matter?
Sep 11, 2003 12:48 PM | | Ha! This coming from a person using a pseudonym to begin with.
I don't have a regular handle dude, I go by a bunch of different ones. How does that have any bearing on anything? Nice strawman guy. |
| I don't change handles, ever. | pimpbot
Sep 11, 2003 1:08 PM | | You can ask around, I've used this handle for at least 10 years. Ask around this board, many know me here and have actually met me and ridden with me. Heck, folks call me pimpbot on the trail.
Pseudonyms have been on the net since it was arcnet in the 60's. This is not new. The point I was making was that you seem to change yours for this discussion, so your rep can't folow you around, and that's cowardly.
Fortunately, it's harder to change your IP address of 209.226.67.168. |
| Are you blind? | Does it really matter?
Sep 11, 2003 1:16 PM | | Pete 'exposed' me very quickly after I posted. Not that I was trying to hide, I picked the 'nym to compliment the topic line on the post. If I was really trying to hide I would have gone through an anonymizer or gone to the web cafe down the street.
Congratulations on being able to use the 'view page source' button, you must feel pretty proud of yourself. And it ain't that hard to change an IP address! Don't make too many assumptions, you're not as clever as you might think you are. You have no real idea how many nicks I may or may not be using on this board.
Thanks for the laughs! |
| An International Poster Spaz of Mystery? | Ken in KC.
Sep 11, 2003 1:25 PM | | |
| "Sometimes, like others on this board, I've posted under assumed | Pete.
Sep 11, 2003 1:49 PM | | ...names for humours sake"
"I know I've said and done some stupid things sometimes"
"I've said things that do not represent the kind of image I wanted to hold myself to or project as a person. This thread is poison for my karma and I don't want anymore of it."
"Apologies for my jackass post"
"I'm also ashamed that I've assisted in propagating the image of Linux users as bigots with superiority complexes."
http://www.mentalhealth.com/dis1/p21-or05.html |
| Good stuff....have to read this whole thread once... | Ebo
Sep 11, 2003 4:27 PM | | I return from Applebee's. You know the place. Marginal food, fairly decent bar thank god. Obviously the birthday girls choice. A couple of stouts once I get home should add to this entertaining thread. Later. |
| And you're funny | Does it really matter?
Sep 11, 2003 12:53 PM | | Instead of responding to anything I've said in depth, you just keep bringing up something about me to deflect. You have a serious inability happening here.
I've talked to quite a few germans, have hung out with several exchange students over the years and talked about just this kind of thing. And being in Germany talking to real germans has proved just as enlightening. I can't speak for their government, but then again is there anything like a decent gov't on this planet?
I might have whined about Pete attacking me, but now I'm starting to have a good time reading you guys. So predictable and so funny!
I might be one lowlife canuck without class, but it wasn't airplanes flying into skyscrapers up here so my country can't me making epic fuckups on the scales that yours has, does and sadly will probably continue to do. |
| Stop dodging my question. What do you want out of this? | pimpbot
Sep 11, 2003 12:32 PM | | Can we cut to the chase here? Why are you posting this? Tell us your point here. |
| What do I want? | Does it really matter?
Sep 11, 2003 12:38 PM | | I want your country to pull its collective head out of its ass and start making the world a better place. One on one you yanks are pretty tolerable people but man you got some fucked up collective thing going on down there. I want your country to act like a high quality world leader instead of acting like a Walmart CEO looking for a new place to open up a store. |
| Do you think posting that in a mtb message board will... | pimpbot
Sep 11, 2003 12:58 PM | | ... accomplish that? It sounds to me more like you're merely spewing crap to make yourself feel superior.
I'm with you there. I wish everybody could pull their heads out of their collective asses, myself included, and yourself included too The reality is that while I volunteer for a few orgaizaions, go to local gov't council meetings, voted in every election since '88 (when I turned 18), I'm already doing a lot, but I'm not done.
Life is the big fight to pull your own head out of your ass to achive enlightenment. If you believe that your head is out of your ass, you're not done pulling.
So far, this is less of a discussion and more of a lecture from you. You are unwilling to listen to any point we have made here, so I'm still trying to figure out what you are trying to acomplish. It seems that the head with more pulling to go, is yours.
Stop wanking your ego. Anybody who believes they are 100% right is 100% wrong.
Okay, lay on your whitty rhetort... |
| I don't have one | Does it really matter?
Sep 11, 2003 1:23 PM | | You've actually made a pretty good post that I mostly agree with. |
| It has no point... | anon
Sep 11, 2003 12:41 PM | | ...except to hear/read a mental ejaculation of what it claims to be reality and truth.
There is no reason for posting such tripe, other than to hurt. It's not trying to cause change.
Only trying to make itself feel better by tearing others down.
Truly pathetic. |
| Wow, thats simple... | Does it really matter?
Sep 11, 2003 12:45 PM | | ...and concise. You've really hit the nail on the head there, sit back and realize that you've managed to reconcile everything I'm talking about so neatly and cleanly |
| Ah yes, the naive ramblings
| anon
Sep 11, 2003 12:16 PM | | ...of what sounds like an idealistic youngster but is probably just another lonely wanna be intellectual.
But I suppose it just isn't 9/11 with it.
Posts like yours is so predictable, especially the fact that you argue with no solutions. |
| And what do you add to the discussion? | Does it really matter?
Sep 11, 2003 12:23 PM | | Nothing. Posts like yours are so easy to make, aren't they? Basically devoid of topic and content.
It's not up to me to suggest a solution. I didn't start this to devise a solution, in fact I didn't start this. I'm just smacking you across the face with the other side of the picture. But of course your response is oh so typical to.
"another lonely wanna be intellectual" You crack me up! |
| Missed the point, didn't you hoser? | Ken in KC.
Sep 11, 2003 12:33 PM | | Pointing out flaws without providing solutions, regardless of where in the world you live, is called bitching and whining, in the real world.
Ken |
| [shrug] | Does it really matter?
Sep 11, 2003 12:39 PM | | |
| Your attitude is why I have no reason to continue... | ssaddle
Sep 11, 2003 5:20 PM | | contributing to overseas charities or have a will to become involved in foreign social issues. After September 11th, I see how malevolent this world is and how uncaring and baseless people like you are. Your statement that all of us are guilty...guilty of what? Have you ever toured this country, lived here and witnessed our silent underbelly and who we really are? I can safely make that assertation from your baseless argument. You are one of those bitter *ssholes watching one-second sound bytes on television about greedy, fat Americans. Guess what, television is mostly fiction and Jerry Springer is 'staged'. So we are guilty of what, being free and productive, passionate and overfed? Are you likening us to Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot, Ceausescu, Hussein, Kim Jong II, and too many to more to mention? Are we the cause of civil unrest, Aids, starvation, and mass-murdering dictators? Or is it that we should 'solve' all problems because you say we could. Last week the collection was passed for immunizations in a distant country and a fund-raiser from my daughter's school to help buy books for some other shitty government that can't provide the basics. Regarding oil and energy, I thought that oil was a commodity that is paid for and traded for and exactly what would the oil-producing countries do without this resource? I know...pitch their tents in the sand and count their wives and camels (sorry I digress). I suppose also, that you live in a perfect country, run by a perfect government, populated by totally innocent, giving, intellectual, kind and charitable people that would undoubtedly protect their borders if attacked. Are you walking to work, contributing to a meatless society and wearing 100% cotton too? Btw, the USA is an accumulation of over 150 years of immigration to comprise what you state is the most evil land of all. The World. Go away little man. |
| exactly | pfunk
Sep 11, 2003 7:24 PM | | You summed up alot of things I couldn't find a way to express. |
| Your attitude is why I have no reason to continue... | ssaddle
Sep 11, 2003 5:20 PM | | contributing to overseas charities or have a will to become involved in foreign social issues. After September 11th, I see how malevolent this world is and how uncaring and baseless people like you are. Your statement that all of us are guilty...guilty of what? Have you ever toured this country, lived here and witnessed our silent underbelly and who we really are? I can safely make that assertation from your baseless argument. You are one of those bitter *ssholes watching one-second sound bytes on television about greedy, fat Americans. Guess what, television is mostly fiction and Jerry Springer is 'staged'. So we are guilty of what, being free and productive, passionate and overfed? Are you likening us to Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot, Ceausescu, Hussein, Kim Jong II, and too many to more to mention? Are we the cause of civil unrest, Aids, starvation, and mass-murdering dictators? Or is it that we should 'solve' all problems because you say we could. Last week the collection was passed for immunizations in a distant country and a fund-raiser from my daughter's school to help buy books for some other shitty government that can't provide the basics. Regarding oil and energy, I thought that oil was a commodity that is paid for and traded for and exactly what would the oil-producing countries do without this resource? I know...pitch their tents in the sand and count their wives and camels (sorry I digress). I suppose also, that you live in a perfect country, run by a perfect government, populated by totally innocent, giving, intellectual, kind and charitable people that would undoubtedly protect their borders if attacked. Are you walking to work, contributing to a meatless society and wearing 100% cotton too? Btw, the USA is an accumulation of over 150 years of immigration to comprise what you state is the most evil land of all. The World. Go away little man. |
| Oh, I try... | Does it really matter?
Sep 11, 2003 11:37 AM | | ...but sadly some of my money does indeed wind up going to the evil empire. There's no way around that, but I try my best to avoid it. No ones perfect, not me, not you, not Pete.
"on a day when husbands, wives, fathers, mothers, daughter and sons died at the hands of murderers" At the hands of murderers *they paid to have created*, that just so happen to have been funded through the use of their tax dollars? You do know that various US Government organs were responsible for creating the monster Bin Laden became back when the Soviets were in Afghanistan, don't you? All the oil money that Bin Laden and his family, as wealthy Saudi Arabians, collected through oil industry?
But if you are an American, I can undestand that you might not have any idea what your country is up to. Shit, how many of you vote after all? Ignorance of what your government does is no excuse. Your money funds this, so some of your money in a perverted, twisted and sad way wound up being used to kill these innocent people on 11-Sep.
How about you yanks shed tears for the rest of the people all over the world you've wound up fucking over so that your comfortable lifetstyle and paycheck could be maintained? |
| You're of course, wrong, it is all the drug users... | Ken in KC.
Sep 11, 2003 11:49 AM | | your logic is just as twisted as the far right.
A couple of points: Every country in the world is beholden to the Middle East for oil. Every single one. Whether it's being affected by oil production from OPEC, relying on the ME for crude oil or simply having your own oil supplies effected by the global economics of the Middle East's clout. You don't really think that France, Germany and Russia objected to the US invading Iraq on humanitarian grounds, do you? After all, they were generating hundreds of billions (with a "b") of dollars (yes, I know euros, which at the time were normalized agaisnt the american dollar) toward their respective GNP's from Iraq.
So as a Canadian, you know exactly what your contry is up to? After all, the Canadian military was involved in the Iraq conflict as well. Hummm.... I guess that makes you part of the problem too. After all you have the power and the control to take over your government and influence their world politics, right? Way to go, pansy spaz. You're responsible for 9/11 too. Just applying some of your logic here.
Ken |
| | Does it really matter?
Sep 11, 2003 12:00 PM | | ...but I'm talking about your country, not any other one. Stick to the topic, but then again, it's not like most yanks I've ever met to face the issues head on and admit they or their country fucked up. But please, prove me wrong.
But yeah, like everyone else on this planet, I am part of the problem too. But because I'm not a yank, I'm a much, much, much smaller part of the problem. Canada is just about the only place that immediately comes to mind as possibly having a worse government than you have down there, it's just that we have less resources to fuck the world up with.
We also use far less Middle-East oil than you do. As a matter of fact, we have the capability and resources to be entirely self sufficient on our own oil. We have far more than the Saudis do, and why we don't stick to using our own oil is something that bothers me a great deal. |
| Sorry, You're Dead Wrong... | Ken in KC.
Sep 11, 2003 12:15 PM | | on so many levels.
You are seizing on an opportunity to bash the US forgien policy on a mountain biking baord, so I suggest that you stick to the topic. Unlike most of the world, it's easy for us "yanks" (you're sooo British, BTW.) to admit that we've fucked up. Slavery, anti-sufferage, McCarthyism, Viet Nam, etc. are all dark areas in our history. Times when our policies, as a nation, were fucked up. We can make this assessment based on hindsight. Did the US fuck up by invading Iraq? I don't know. I'll know for sure in 30 years or so, when we have the luxury of hindsight.
So because I was born in the United States, I share a bigger burden of the World's problems than you do? Nice try, junior. As a Canadian citizen (and former British colony), I blame you for the United State's recent foriegn policy decisions. After all, the British Empire was our parent country, and what better example of world conquest could you ask for than the British Empire. So, it's your fault that we turned out the way we did.
You missed my point (as I expected you to) on Middle East oil. Canada is dramatically effected by OPEC, regardless of crude imports. As the price of crude changes, it either values or devaules the price of Canandian crude. Since oil is a large part of the GNP of Canada, your government is affected by the Middle East.
So, back to the point... you seem to have all the answers for us yanks, but don't seem to be willing to point the mirror toward yourself and applying the same "logic" that you're imparting to us. In addition to eliminating your credibility, do you know what that makes you? I know you have the Webster's link, perhaps you can share another definition with us?
Ken |
| Wow... | Does it really matter?
Sep 11, 2003 12:34 PM | | I'm not here to point the mirror at myself, I'm here to criticize you and yours. As I said before, since you have appears to have problems recognizing certain facts, I didn't start this thread, someone else did by posting something non-mtb and 9/11 related. But you'll keep arguing this point so that you can avoid talking about your own fuck ups as a country.
"Times when our policies, as a nation, were fucked up" WERE? Still are... take a look at just about any news source from any country. Even yours, pathetic as they are.
"After all, the British Empire was our parent country ... So, it's your fault that we turned out the way we did". That's some pretty feeble arguing there and it speaks for itself. Take a break and come back with something better. And where did I ever Canada was not affected by the middle east?
I'm totally willing to point the mirror back at myself, unlike you. Can't take the criticism, eh? |
| Again, the point alludes you... | Ken in KC.
Sep 11, 2003 12:52 PM | | My reasoning for providing convoluted logic is that you are doing exactly the same thing, but suggesting that your's is rational. You obviously don't have a clue regarding world politics, yet you bash mountain bikers because they happen to have been born in a country that borders yours.
The original post was made to remember people who died. Your response was an anti-United States diatribe suggesting that everyone who went to work in the WTC that day deserved to die, because they were born in the United States.
At least one Passion regular, and friend to many on this board worked at the WTC. He missed being killed by good timing, good fortune, karma, devine intervention or whatever you want to call it. We are happy that he's alive. He did lose friends and co-worker in the WTC, and for them and everyone else who died, we have a right to grieve. You don't have the right to take that away from people.
"And where did I ever Canada was not affected by the middle east? "
You didn't say you weren't affected. You said that you were a very small part of the problem, where everyone in the United States was a huge part of the problem. by suggesting the Canadian economics are effected by OPEC, I was trying to demonstrate to your feeble self that you are actaully the pot, calling the kettle back. If I, as a US citizen, and responsible for the attacks on the WTC due to the policies and actions of my government and our dependance on ME oil, then you too are responsible, as a Canadian citizen for your governments reliance on OPEC and your governments foriegn policies. Since you haven't taken any actions to change this within Canada, I hold you responsible for the WTC. After all, in any conflict in the ME in the past 14 years, Canada has been involved, lock stock and barrel.
Ken |
| I think you're getting lost here | Does it really matter?
Sep 11, 2003 1:10 PM | | "You obviously don't have a clue regarding world politics"... more than your government does, it would appear... "yet you bash mountain bikers because they happen to have been born in a country that borders yours" Nope, I'm bashing them 'cos they country and government is fucked up.
"Your response was an anti-United States diatribe suggesting that everyone who went to work in the WTC that day deserved to die, because they were born in the United States" Bzzt! Wrong! I said they weren't innocent and insinuated they themselves played a small, but nonetheless real, role in their own deaths. I don't know that anyone 'deserves' to die, but I'm sure that some people in that building, pushing those abstract numbers around their spreadsheets, contributed to some evil somewhere.
"You don't have the right to take that away from people" I can't take that away from people, they'll still be able to do that no what I say or do. I'm just giving you a taste of the another point of view so that you folks don't get too wrapped up in your own tragedies to forget about those that your government, on your behalf, is perpetrating on others. If I did manage to take that away, then it wasn't there to begin with. Your people die and what does your government do? Crack down on civil rights. Your government is taking away their memory and your grief more than I am.
In regards to your last paragraph, you need to get over your perception that you are the master of pot-kettle-blackness demonstration. At no point did I ever say I, or Canada was blame free. But as a yank, you are black from head to toe and I am but smudged in this regard. Canadians were killed in the WTC attack too, don't forget, and I have the same feelings towards that as I do the American aspect of what we're talking about. |
| Oh, the Irony... | Ken in KC.
Sep 11, 2003 1:27 PM | | and yet, I suspect you don't even see it.
Ken |
| Now that's funny! (nm) | Does it really matter?
Sep 11, 2003 1:36 PM | | |
| no one is perfect | pfunk
Sep 11, 2003 12:34 PM | | what bothers me is that no one takes the time to point out the good things that America and Americans have done in this world. Like ANY other nation or govt. in the world, we have made mistakes but we have also done good. No one who has responded to you so far has said they do not admit that America has made mistakes.
I received this e-mail 2 years ago, and I think THIS is important to remember too.
This, from a Canadian newspaper...
America: The Good Neighbor.
Widespread but only partial news coverage was given recently to a remarkable editorial broadcast from Toronto by Gordon Sinclair, a Canadian television commentator. What follows is the full text of his trenchant remarks as printed in the Congressional Record:
"This Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the Americans as the most generous and possibly the least appreciated people on all the earth.
Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and Italy were lifted out of the debris of war by the Americans who poured in billions of dollars and forgave other billions in debts. None of these countries is today paying even the interest on its remaining debts to the United States.
When France was in danger of collapsing in 1956, it was the Americans who propped it up, and their reward was to be insulted and swindled on the streets of Paris. I was there. I saw it.
When earthquakes hit distant cities, it is the United States that hurries in to help. This spring, 59 American communities were flattened by tornadoes. Nobody helped.
The Marshall Plan and the Truman Policy pumped billions of dollars into discouraged countries. Now newspapers in those countries are writing about the decadent, warmongering Americans.
I'd like to see just one of those countries that is gloating over the
erosion of the United States dollar build its own airplane. Does any other country in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing Jumbo Jet, the Lockheed Tri-Star, or the Douglas DC10? If so, why don't they fly them? Why do all the International lines except Russia fly American Planes?
Why does no other land on earth even consider putting a man or woman on the moon? You talk about Japanese technocracy, and you get radios. You talk about German technocracy, and you get automobiles.
You talk about American technocracy, and you find men on the moon -! not once, but several times - and safely home again.
You talk about scandals, and the Americans put theirs right in the store window for everybody to look at. Even their draft-dodgers are not pursued and hounded. They are here on our streets, and most of them, unless they are breaking Canadian laws, are getting American dollars from ma and pa at home to spend here.
When the railways of France, Germany and India were breaking down through age, it was the Americans who rebuilt them. When the Pennsylvania Railroad and the New York Central went broke, nobody loaned them an old caboose. Both are still broke.
I can name you 5000 times when the Americans raced to the help of other people in trouble. Can you name me even one time when someone else raced to the Americans in trouble? I don't think there was outside help even during the San Francisco earthquake.
Our neighbors have faced it alone, and I'm one Canadian who is damned tired of hearing them get kicked around. They will come out of this thing with their flag high. And when they do, they are entitled to thumb their nose at the lands that are gloating over their present troubles. I hope Canada is not one of those."
Stand proud, America" |
| no one is perfect | Carbnjunkie
Sep 11, 2003 1:42 PM | | i agree with what you said,
I live in the US, but studied indian railroad, and i can tell you that the americans have not updated or contributed to the railroad at all, which still is in a sad state today. This is why so many accidents happen every year.
>Ankur |
| THANK YOU PFUNK!!! | Drewdane
Sep 11, 2003 5:22 PM | | The more I read whatzizname's spewing, the more I thought of that great editorial. |
| I think... | Pete.
Sep 11, 2003 12:24 PM | | This fruitcake is channeling/has become possessed by that other fruitcake Gipple/Geller/Huge Newbie/etc./etc.
It's classic behavior. |
| Give me a little credit, this guy is a TOTAL moron. | Gipple
Sep 11, 2003 1:14 PM | | |
| Wow names are easy, aren't they? | Does it really matter?
Sep 11, 2003 1:19 PM | | Try coming up with something original or that uses a little more effort. At least Pete can upload a photo!
Ta! |
| Did you say the Iraq thing was all about oil? | Gipple
Sep 11, 2003 1:24 PM | | I thought I read somewhere that we get more of our oil from Canada than we do from the middle east. If thats the case, why didn't we just attack Canada if all we wanted was oil. We could have probably taken over by using a couple reserve units and a boy scout troup or two. |
| Did you say the Iraq thing was all about oil? | Does it really matter?
Sep 11, 2003 1:33 PM | | Not all about oil, but that's definately a part of it.
You wouldn't even need 2 reserve units. Although our soldiers (the ones you don't accidentally kill) and pilots are better trained than yours our equipment is almost non-existant, old, and just about useless. Don't ask about our helicopters, they're a joke. And we got sold a bum sub by the UK. As a nation we have almost completely pissed away a proud military history.
'Sides, there's no need to attack you'd just have to buy us out, and too many of us would be happy to sell. Shit, we're practically the 5x'th state anyways. |
| Nothing wrong with Canadian defense system... | 006_007
Sep 11, 2003 1:58 PM | |  |
| waspinator is baaaaaaack | P3NI5 RI0T!
Sep 11, 2003 4:39 PM | | so? |
| Please keep in mind | Sodbuster
Sep 11, 2003 5:43 PM | | You are a moron. |
| My salute to you... | Slick
Sep 11, 2003 8:35 PM | | That's right, Clary... I'm American and proud of it. You can spew you vitriolic hatred but you won't change me. You're nothing more than an imp of Saddam and Osama. |
| More importantly, what did we learn? | Grizza®
Sep 11, 2003 3:14 PM | | There's no question it was a huge tragedy, but what has it taught us Westerners about the world? For me, it says a few things -
That if you go into Afghanistan to support the Mujahadeen against the Russians, you don't abandon them when you feel like it.
Most of the middle east don't think of the US as a great friendly liberator. There's nothing liberating about the Wests foreign policy in general - it's all about securing resourses. If it was all about liberty and freedom and increasing living standards for all, we'd do something about Ivory Coast, for a start.
If you pump millions of dollars into Israel, it won't win you any friends in the middle east.
Not everyone is dying to become a good little consumer. Cultural imperialism is going to have some repercussions. If we keep up the current trends the backlash will only increase.
That even though 9/11 was a huge tragedy, we shouldn't pay it too much attention, disproportionate to it's level of tragedy. Think about the 40,000 children that die EVERY DAY because of our greed and apathy. Think about the millions that have died thoughout the world at our hands to secure resourses, put in place sympathetic governments, battle 'communism' etc. in places like Nicaragua, Cambodia, Indonesia, Vietnam, Afghanistan...the list is long.
That, and I'm sorry to say this, that the US population is largely insular and largely oblivious to the rest of the world. 9/11 is a wake-up call to start looking at not only what your government is doing overseas in your name, but also for the rest of us in other Western countries to take a long hard look at our own foreign policy. We need to stop our goverments looking at the rest of the world as a 'consumable', something to secure for the corporations to plunder and then abandon when they're done.
That's the end of my breakfast time rant!! My sincere condolances to anyone who lost any friends or loved-ones in the WTC bombings. Lets cry, remember, and think about the 'why' and make change for the better. |
| That day, I learned a few things: | Mackie
Sep 11, 2003 6:30 PM | | -I learned that New York City is the strongest god damn city in the world.
-I learned exactly how much all of us "heartless" New Yorkers care for each other.
-I learned what it means to have a beautiful day turned into a day of loss and fear.
-I learned that we, Americans, can overcome anything.
I'm born and raised here in New York, and perhaps my view is skewed by the way my life changed 2 years ago, but part of what I think motivated the terrorists, and motivates much of the anti-american hatred in the world is simple jealousy. Despite our many faults, we are among the most free, most educated, and most prosperous nations in the world. In no other place in the world do you have such an abilty to do what you want, say what you want, beleive what you want or be what you want. And were hated for it, and we're massively imigrated into because of it. Millions of people would love to have what we have, and some of those who cannot become jealous, and hatefull.
And I think that jealousy is a large part of what's motivating our anonymous poster.
I honor the people who died that day. I knew a few, one fairly well. And whatever the anonymous dimwit thinks - they were all innocent. I'm sad for you that your jealousy, and desperate need to be controversial can't let you see that.
-Mackie |
| Agreed... | Gipple
Sep 12, 2003 3:34 AM | | Take a look at the Arab Human Development Report...
http://www.undp.org/rbas/ahdr/PRExecSummary.pdf
And I suppose WE here in America are responsible for the Arab countries falling behind the rest of the world? Its time for these people to try and do something constructive with their lives, instead of pointing fingers and hating. When I have a problem at my job for example, I don't point fingers and put the blame on others, I do something about fixing the problem. |
| Where do you come up with the assumption... | ssaddle
Sep 11, 2003 6:56 PM | | that we are "largely insular and largely oblivious" to the rest of the world as a population. Basically what you are implying is we are a collection of mindless idiots driving to work in our gas-guzzling suv's with our heads in the sand. And I suppose the majority of Australian's are fervently working on how to solve the world's most pressing problems while they pour a cup of coffee in the morning. Is that truly your first thought when you get up in the morning? How much money are you willing to donate from your own pocket?
I don't assume that other people in other countries are concerned even a small bit what happens over here regarding our personal tradgeties, and natural disasters, because for some reason we don't really have "problems" like everybody else. In retrospect though we must be tuned into any world turmoil overseas and feel guilty and responsible for them. Why? Sorry if I've been sanctimonious while reading this entire thread, but I am really tired of finger-pointers. Please get down on your knees and explain it to the little kid who lost his parent that the reason was really because they were too "insular" and didn't give a damn about saving every starfish in the sea. |
| ANNEX CANADA and... | Soupboy187
Sep 12, 2003 12:47 PM | | ...detach this mouth-breathing neophyte from it's government's teet.
Who else has so much time to argue on the 'net? Some soft idealist living off the work of others. Must be nice.
Already feeling the post-post remorse for spoon feeding this troll. |
| Why switch handles? | ssaddle
Sep 12, 2003 1:22 PM | | You've implied several times in the past that I'm worth nothing because I choose to stay home and rear a family. I just had no idea you were that nasty. |
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