|   New EBB SS frame from Vail Cycle Works | Jack
Apr 17, 2002 3:54 PM | | This is a new release from VCW. The Mega One D. This is an eccentric style Bottom bracket singlespeed frame made from the same Columbus Navicrom steel tubing that the standard Mega One is made from. Only this is set up with vertical breezer dropouts and a disc brake mount{ NO canti's mounts}
For the first three frames only, one of each size, I am offering a custom paint job of your choice of colors up to a two color fade at the price of $800.00 |
| $800 paint job??? Oy. | Monte
Apr 17, 2002 3:57 PM | | nice looking frame.
Monte |
| Snap goes the seat stay | shiggy©®
Apr 17, 2002 10:06 PM | | does not look very sturdy. |
| Snap goes the seat stay | cyclerant
Apr 18, 2002 4:39 AM | | Do you have some kind of first hand knowledge of Jack's work being less than sturdy?
Just asking as I have seen a number of his bikes and they all look well built and receive pretty high reviews from the owners i have talked to. |
| Every day you prove yourself to know so very little about bikes | Franz
Apr 18, 2002 4:44 AM | | If you don't have anything constructive to say - guess what?
Are YOU a frame manufacturer?
Doubtful.
Just another weekend warrior fred type who spends too much time reading Dirt Rag Action and fetishing over the green closeout michelins and return pile at Performance.
Sorry - I sound like a total dick - no coffee this morning - nothing against you - just a "wee bit" jaded as you can see. |
| Get your coffee and have a seat | shiggy
Apr 18, 2002 7:51 AM | | I did not have time to elaborate last night.
From what I see in the pic the rear end of this frame is the same as a standard rim brake, vert dropout frame with a disc tab added. Standard dropouts and stays without a gusset or brace can and do fail. I have seen the seat- and/or chainstay snap on underdesigned or retrofitted frames with disc mounts. Some of these frames were sold by major manufacturers.
When I designed the disc mount for my VooDoo SS 1.5years ago, two different frame builders and Joe Murray, the designer for VooDoo, told me I should add a brace between the seat and chain stay. This is the result:
It has given me Zero trouble, is rock solid and is probably overkill.
I have been riding mtbs for 19 years. I do not follow convention or accept the drivel the bike rags or manufacturers try to feed us. I use what works - for me. It may not work for you. I have been making high clearance plastic fenders like the T.H.E. for 15 years. I have designed and made my own mtb shoes and clothing. I have designed and help build a couple of frames.
Wake up and have your coffee. |
| Designing your own shoes | Roger
Apr 18, 2002 8:27 AM | | and you're from Oregon!!!??!??!?! Oh my god shiggy, you're not the same guy that founded Nike!!?!?!?!?!!? hehehehhehe! ;0)
Roger (Was it okay that I sat down with a Pepsi, rather than coffee?) |
| I was working... | shiggy
Apr 18, 2002 8:30 AM | | ...in the old man's prototype lab in Eugene.
old man = Bill Bowerman |
| I wouldn't... | Carl Mega
Apr 18, 2002 9:32 AM | | brag about making your own cycling clothes. Remember, we've all seen the pictures.
And why is this ok? There's no brace.
Just stirring the pot. |
| Whaddya mean? | Sparty
Apr 18, 2002 9:53 AM | | I see a brace. It runs up to the canti post.
:¬]
--Sparty |
| That's true | Carl Mega
Apr 18, 2002 10:11 AM | | I wonder if the braking force being spead out over the larger area of the seat stay makes it stronger OR if the shim-sham rigging (IMO) makes this a weaker design.
I really don't know.
Cheers. |
| The Paul Disc Unit... | shiggy
Apr 18, 2002 10:29 AM | | ...is not rigidly attached to the frame or dropout. The caliper mount is attached to the hub axle and the forces are transfered simular to a rim brake, though the dropout itself. There is little force applied directly to the stays, though still more than rim brakes. |
| So it's.... | Carl Mega
Apr 18, 2002 8:28 PM | | like a floating brake mech but on stationary point? Is the reason they elected to go with a complicated design because they wanted to reduce the stress on the dropout area? Just curious. |
| I think... | shiggy
Apr 19, 2002 8:01 AM | | ...it is designed to easily put a disc on a frame with horz drops and keep the caliper aligned with the rotor. It is a simple design, really. |
| BTW, I did not design my team's uniform | shiggy
Apr 18, 2002 10:34 AM | | I stuff I made makes it look very, very mild. Think of a one-piece long sleeve knicker winter skin suit with knee, thigh, hip, tail bone, right side and shoulder padding for cyclocross. |
| Snap goes the seat stay | jack
Apr 18, 2002 5:25 AM | | shiggy
You are talking about things that you know very little about.
As that is Columbus Navicrome steel with a tensile strength of 175,000 PSI.The second highest made. There is only one steel tubing group that has a higher tensile strength and that is the new Thermacrom FOCO [205,000 psi] tube group from Columbus. There are a LOT of frames made from tubing that has a much lower tensile rating that Navicrom that have no problems with the Disc mounted to the seatstay |
| Uh, Jack
| Spar¡cus
Apr 18, 2002 5:45 AM | | Not so fast there, Jack. Shiggy knows more about this than you might think he does. You guys who are taking swings at him might ask him a few questions about his experience in this regard before attempting to lay him out.
--Spary
P.S. Very nice looking frame. |
| what kind of warranty? | neutral observer
Apr 18, 2002 5:50 AM | | my guess is the hostility generated here = few VCW Mega One D's being sold |
| why not have the secutrity there then? | martini
Apr 18, 2002 5:58 AM | | it'll never hurt ya know. In fact, it may save you headaches down the road. Take it as constructive critisism [sp].
ml |
| tensile strength is only a measure of strength in tension. | some guy
Apr 18, 2002 7:57 AM | | Tensile strength is only a measure of a tubes strength in tension. Clamp both ends of it in a machine and stretch. That's tensile strength. Seat stays are seldom in tension. More often in compression, and by putting a disc mount on them, they need shear strength also. I'm not saying that Columbus Navicrome doesen't have high compression and shear strength, just that quoting the tensile strength doesen't tell us that. |
| just playing the devils advicate | bike_rider81
Apr 18, 2002 8:28 AM | | if you know the tensile strength cant you find the shearing stress the tube can with stand(trying to remember back to my solids class) |
| Wouldn't that depend on... | shiggy
Apr 18, 2002 8:33 AM | | ...tubing diameter, wall thickness and heat effected areas amoung other things? |
| Kinda, not really... | GMF
Apr 18, 2002 8:41 AM | | You can get a decent ballpark of the shear strength of a material (about 1/3 of the tensile for steel, i believe), but this is merely a material property.
How much load the seat stay can take in this application is a combination of both the material property (ie. shear strength) and the geometric properties you mentioned (as well as manufacturing processes like the HAZ).
-GMF |
| But do they have a reinforcement? | shiggy
Apr 18, 2002 8:22 AM | | The forces a disc brake places on the stay/drop junction is very different and much greater than a rim brake. the disc places twisting loads right at the joints and drop out. Is this not where the tubes are at their smallest (and weakest because of being heated in the welding/brazing process)? Is there not the potential for stress risers at the ends of the disc mount?
Conventional stay designs do not subject the dropout area to twisting loads.
But if you never ride it hard... |
| Disc brake forces... | tamjam
Apr 18, 2002 9:06 AM | | Shiggy- You mention something about disc brake forces that I have been thinking about since my little accident a few days ago. The dropouts on my front fork have are angled back slightly, towards me as I sit on the bike. If I am just cruising along and suddenly apply my front disc brake, the forward rotation of the disc itself and the wheel will be the first things to stop, and then the fork/frame, a split second behind. But in that split second, if the drops are angled back, do you think that would make it easier for the forces exerted by the disc to twist the axle back through the opening, since the rest of the bike is still moving forward? I've got a little picture drawn on my desk here while I've been thinking about it, but that probably doesn't help you...
Brian |
| Yep... | shiggy
Apr 18, 2002 10:23 AM | | When I have not tightened the rear wheel enough on my VooDoo, under braking, the disc side will move back in the dropouts and the the tire will buzz the left chainstay. The drive side stays in place because of the chain. The wheel is going to try to rotate around the point where the caliper clamps down on the rotor. If the caliper was below the axle on my bike the wheel would try to rotate forward instead.
On the fork the axle would try to lift out of the dropouts. Some people are keeping the laywer tabs on their forks for this reason. |
| Shiggy - your SUCH A STONER!! Oregon mildew in your brain.. | Franz
Apr 19, 2002 3:57 AM | | The Reason your friggin' tire rubs your stupid left chainstay is because -guess what - the drive side has pulled forward! What puts more force on the drop outs? Your fat ass pedaling a hard gear in your fancy tights and custom dance shoes up a hill or the measly comparative forces of braking? |
| Absofrickinlootly
| Spar¡cus
Apr 19, 2002 5:57 AM | | .WRONG!
1) Shiggy uses chain tugs, the drive side ain't movin'
2) It's not hard to tell which side has moved, even a mildew-brain like Shig can figger it
3) Franz, evidently you underestimate the forces applied through disc brakes. The forces are substantial
4) Shig's ass, while I've hardly made a study of it, is not fat
5) The stoner reputation is undeserved
6) He ain't much of a dancer, either
6.1) Re: Shig's custom outfit: no comment
--Spary |
| Nice post dude. No coffee yet? | Monte
Apr 19, 2002 7:19 AM | | 0 for 2 |
| Not that you deserve a reply... | shiggy
Apr 19, 2002 8:28 AM | | ...to such an ill informed post.
I can tell which side of the wheel is moving. If you saw it even you could figure it out. My goldfish could figure it out! Let's see, I am coasting downhill, I apply the rear brake and the wheel rubs on the left chainstay! Sparti is right that I use chain tugs. So how is the drive side moving forward?
Braking forces can be much higher than pedaling forces. I can skid a wheel under braking - front or rear - on almost any surface. I can not spin the rear wheel through pedaling unless the suface is loose and/or I unweight the wheel.
Your mind seems to be the one that is scrambled, Franzie. Get off the weed and the sauce and pay attention to how a bike really works. |
| Second Opinion | shiggy
Apr 19, 2002 12:28 PM | |  |
| Bzzzzt Wrong! But thanks for playing... | DeeEight
Apr 20, 2002 8:18 AM | | the deceleration forces going thru discs actually will exceed the acceleration forces from the drivetrain.
Also, when was the last time your drive side pulled forward while you applied the brakes and were not pedaling?!? |
| tube strengths... | GMF
Apr 18, 2002 8:52 AM | | You mentioned that only the columbus foco tube set has a higher strength than the nivacrome tubeset. Other tubing manufacturers would disagree:
-Reynolds 853: 180-120ksi @ 10% elongation
-True Temper OX Platinum: 150-217ksi @ 10%
-True Temper OX Gold: >195ksi @ 8-10%
-True Temper RCX2: >185ksi @ 7%
-True Temper OXRCX: >185ksi @ 7%
-Dedacciai EOM 16.5: 220ksi @ 9%
-Dedacciai Zero: >203ksi @13%
(for reference)
-Columbus Foco: 177-205ksi @ 12%
Not a short list of competitors...
Just FYI
-GMF |
| you can "hold"the strength despite brazing ? | Brakemeister
Apr 18, 2002 6:30 PM | | They are two "large" areas which get awful hot for the lug to be brazed to the stays. ( not to mention the disc brake mount itself ) These two areas are exactly , where the main force of the disc will twisat,pull,push and runs havov.
There is now way that the initial strenght of the tubing is still there.
Thorsten |
| I'd agree with him... | martini
Apr 18, 2002 5:29 AM | | Disc brakes exert much more stress on the spindly stays than you could imagine. They need a brace tween the stays to shore that area up. Why do you think every steel bike with disc mounts you've seen has one? It's a small addistion that in my mind Jack needs to add to ensure durability.
ml |
| Very clean but | General Coonskins
Apr 18, 2002 5:45 AM | | I would have to agree with Shiggy on this one.
But you are correct when you say we are not frame builders and we no nothing about bikes. Hey we just ride on the weekends and never more than a couple miles at that. We have never had any experience dealing with disc brakes or customizing bikes with disc brakes or having bikes built or designed with disc brakes or seeing bikes break because of weak disc mounts or steel bikes or mechanical design.
Best of luck with your bikes,
The General |
| Ahhh come on now Shiggy | jjsinglespeed
Apr 18, 2002 4:09 PM | | Ok just imagine Jack came into 711 and attacked the way you pour a "Big Gulp Shiggy" you'd get testy too. |
| Yeah, I know... | shiggy
Apr 18, 2002 4:17 PM | | ...I was on my way to bed last night and did not take the time to explain. I would like to see some testing time put on the frame. |
| very nice, decent price, but... | red-haze
Apr 18, 2002 7:21 AM | | and that disc mount on the seat stay surely wouldn't break, but I'm thinking it'd be springy, like a big leaf spring. could make the brake chatter or something. by putting a brace to the chain stay the rigidity of the system has been greatly increased.
I really like the smoothness of the frame, no un-necessary braze ons. the big downtube looks cool too. but I wonder if he is using a much thinner tube, and since I dented the top tube of my Brew (Columbus Zona) and now have a fresh appreciation of "pop can-iness" I'm wary of such things.
ah, but $800 for a fine tube set...oh wait, just paid my taxes...nevermind...ACK!
bob |
| re: New EBB SS frame from Vail Cycle Works | jack
Apr 18, 2002 6:23 PM | | Well,I must say that this has turned interesting. As this subject of the brace for the disc mount has been on my mind too. as of this time I have talked to Columbus and the tubing supplers and both think a brace is a overkill and I have a couple of test frames out there that seem to work fine. But for the peace of mind, a brace would be a easy addition.
How would all of you like to see the brace added? |
| re: New EBB SS frame from Vail Cycle Works | jjsinglespeed
Apr 19, 2002 12:48 AM | | My biggest problems with the new Mega-one is what 2 colors to choose for mine, and how I'm gonna pay for it LOL After a 6month lay-off from a broken tailbone..I have finally been able to ride again. So evryone join me around the campfire and sing a few verses of "Back in the Saddle Again" Yippy - Yippy-Ki-A,,,,,-JJ- |
| Here's one... | tamjam
Apr 19, 2002 6:16 AM | | ...my Hunter: |
| and another | DAS
Apr 19, 2002 7:15 AM | | I have heard strong opinions in favor and against the 'brace.' Some say it's essential, some say it's not necessary. As long as my frame doesn't brake i'm cool with it. |
| ...and another... | shiggy
Apr 19, 2002 8:40 AM | | On the 'Skins Vulture
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The gusset is a thin (1-1.5mm?) piece of sheet steel. Very light and functional. |
| How about a brace and an apology? | Roy
Apr 19, 2002 2:09 PM | | I can understand your first post being hyper-defensive, but the Shiggy stoner/fat ass/etc... one, not only were you wrong you were way out of line. |
| re: Very nice.................but | Brakemeister
Apr 18, 2002 6:40 PM | | This is a nice frame, which i would be proud to own.
BUT just add a little reinforcement, on the disc chainstay.
2. reasons :
First. You can run any disc, even a strong one. You are not limiting yourself to a weak disc brake. Meaning the frame will last much longer when somebody puts a strong brake on there... And believe me everybody is following the trend for stronger disc brakes.
Second. I will make a bet, that with the current setup, you will have a screamer... meaning : every disc brake will howl like crazy.
( and I will get the call, whats wrongwith the brakes in case the lucky owner puts some super lightweight Formula's on there.. lol )
Think about it. Than try it out yourself with a couple of different discs. they will howl !!!
And how easy can you make this beutiful frame excellent.
Thorsten |
| re: Howler.... | Monte
Apr 18, 2002 8:18 PM | | I'm not sure if it's the same, but I've got a steel GT Karakorum with a brazed on brake tab that looks pretty much like what Jack's done and it doesn't make a peep.
I'm going to get a brace put in though. Got a torch in the shop, just have to find the right clothes hanger....
Monte |
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