|   Where's SS going and why? | Kevin Basil
Sep 11, 2002 12:39 PM | | I keep thinking about this. I've had singlespeed bikes for a long while, my current SS bike is a Mountain Goat WTR that I bought new in 92 and had BMX dropouts put on it in '96 I think when it was repainted. Still has the original rigid fork on it, still is a great bike with a nice relaxed ride. Never put a suspension fork on it, the geometry wasn't designed for them and since it's a 1 incher, it's sure not going to happen now, but it's still a blast to ride with big cushy tires. Now I keep seeing these SS's on here that have EBBs, big travel suspension forks, disc brakes, and now soft tails and full suspension? WTF?
I thought SS was about the simplicity of the bike, so what's going on? Why are we slowly but surely obscuring the experience with more and more technology, more complexity, more cost? I admit it, I have geared bikes and a FS bike with all the best and latest gizmos, but my SS has remained untouched by it. I must be getting old, the more experience I have on the bike, the less I'm interested in the technology and the more interested I am in just riding my SS without caving in to those marketing prostitutes like I did on my other rides. That's it, I'm coverting my SS to fixed and tossing the rear brake. |
| Word and Picture | singleminded
Sep 11, 2002 1:05 PM | | a pure SS...
Rigid
Steel
Track drops
Stout rims
No stinkin discs or eccentricities
Even flat pedals
It is joy... |
| How abou this one? | kendog
Sep 12, 2002 5:27 AM | | I did the Wilderness 101 on this bike exactly as it's shown in the picture (rigid fork and all) in 12 hours.
...a pure ss... |
| Nanny-Nanny Boo-Boo, I'm Much More Pure than You.... | singleminded
Sep 12, 2002 8:36 AM | | That bike's not really as pure as mine, dude. Mine came from a custom builder who designed it to be a SS from the beginning. And my rigid fork is straight, not curved; everyone knows that straight is more pure than curved, dude. And your frame has that weird seatstay design -- certainly not pure, man. And...
Excuse me a second -- my Kona dealer is on the phone with info about my new full-sussy SS...
WHAT DO YOU MEAN I CAN'T GET REMOTE CONTROL ELECTRONIC LOCKOUT FOR THE REAR SHOCK?! WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE?!
WHAT ABOUT THE TITANIUM WHEELSET? ...NO, NO, NO. THE NIPPLES MUST BE TITANIUM TOO. HOW MUCH? AN EXTRA $3000? NO PROBLEM. SEND IT OVERNIGHT. THANKS, GOODBYE.
Sorry about putting you on hold there, Kendog. Now what was it were we talking about... |
| WTF | kendog
Sep 12, 2002 8:42 AM | | Are you delusional or something? I just posted a picture of my bike. I thought that's what we did here. |
| uh, that was supposed to be satirical.... | singleminded
Sep 12, 2002 9:06 AM | | Gee Whiz. Folks seem a bit on the touchy side today. I was just poking fun at the whole debate, Kendog, not you or your lovely bike. I apologize if my attempt at satire was so lame that you couldn't even see the attempt.
Now, in all seriousness and to set straight any records that might have gotten bent out of shape, so to speak: IMHO it's all good! EBB, disc, susp, whatever. I hate cliches but here's one I don't mind using: if it works for you (or anyone else) it's good.
The only thing I'll never have any patience for is stuff that doesn't function the way it's supposed to. When it comes to crappy parts there is no mercy.
Peace |
| my mistake | kendog
Sep 12, 2002 9:18 AM | | Too little sleep...... The satire was readily apparent it just went over my head.
I agree with your cliche. Personnally, I like finely machined bike pieces (it's the engineer in me). The fact of the matter is, I don't have that kind of cash to spend. So, I go a little more basic because it "works for me." |
| Satire... | TwoWheelinTim
Sep 12, 2002 11:54 AM | | I had a good laugh reading it. |
| lots of words | vulture
Sep 11, 2002 6:17 PM | | dont dis on the options. Theres some retro goodness in all single speeding. An ebb is nothing new, hell suspension is nothing new. Better get rid of those clippless pedals. Fixed is fun, five inches of travel is fun too. As for marketing thats fun too. Why WTF on what you dont dig? WTF are we all typing this jizz on an internet forum anyway. Im doing ebb cuz it works good. Ive built plenty of singlespeeds that way with no need to get a new rear wheel, the regular parts from the old rig just drop right on. I actually think its an inexpensive way to go. Maybe singlspeeding is supposed to stay in 1928 or something, oh oh there goes that titanium, clipless,
aluminum stem, aluminum bar, plastic saddle, helmet, tire choice... |
| Steady, pal. | Matt Chester
Sep 11, 2002 7:58 PM | | i Maybe singlspeeding is supposed to stay in 1928 or something, oh oh there goes that titanium, clipless, aluminum stem, aluminum bar, plastic saddle, helmet, tire choice...
No need to distort things to the extreme...I've never issued an edict on what's right or wrong. I make choices like anyone else. Kev expressed his opinion...I concurred. Nothing more. Why the fuss? |
| Rock Steady, pal. | vulture
Sep 11, 2002 9:30 PM | | limited sleep and a little jealousy I guess... The titanium comment does seem a bit directed though, and I appologize. Mostly just some harsh teasing there. I reckon the distortion is to point out that just because there is some inovation in the realm of single speeding its essence will not be terminated. If a bunch of marketing hype and some spiffy do dads get more folks to single speed I think its swell.
one speed is one speed. |
| If the rider <i>really</i> knows what he wants... | shiggy
Sep 12, 2002 8:31 AM | | ...and understands the issues/limitations, Matt can build the bike.
An EBB and/or disc tabs on Matt's design would make a major change in how the bike rides. And this is one smooth ride and the best handling bike I have ever ridden.
Matt, Congrats on the Championship! I need to call you soon. Maybe tomorrow night. |
| I'm with you, sort of | LEF-T
Sep 11, 2002 1:15 PM | | I have been riding rigid, simple, low cost single speeds for a long time. Now it's more mainstream, with e-bb on the fringe of the future. Don't worry, it will always boil down to legs and lungs not how much travel or what kind of brakes you have.
I have the latest C-dale wiz bang e-bb ss on the way. But I still own a stable of rigid low tech ss's. My Surly still kicks ass on fun rides or races. Riders who just rely on their high tech rigs get dropped by my legs,lungs and skills.
I think rigid ss look the best, clean and simple. You really don't need all that other crap, but it's nice. |
| re: Where's SS going and why? | Vrock
Sep 11, 2002 2:12 PM | | I think that EBB is a good idea, it work better with disc brakes but if someone is going to use V brakes it still makes sence because you can use a QR rear hub. I think that Freehubs with QR and a single cog with spacers is the best solution, I don't like freewheels. |
| hey vrock... | slowSSer
Sep 11, 2002 2:41 PM | | just be careful with the ebb and disc thing when Matt Chester is in the forum- he'll convert you yet!
he's got me converted- a good argument is that a well-set up set of v-brakes can kill you, oops, I mean stop you, nearly (fractions of seconds) as discs. so, who needs em?
My next SS is going to be a Matt Chester UtiliTIman, but it will have a suspension fork on it.
as for the main question, I also think that the full suspension SS should not happen, at all. I do agree that this is all about SIMPLICITY!!!!
Think about it- why did we all get into the groove?
cheers,
beers,
no gears.
(btw- anyone know where I got this? Im tired of plagarizing)
also, scarew the spellink poleice.
Ethan, aka E2cflyr (sorry, Rut, only time I'll do this) |
| Does it matter that much.. | Brandon
Sep 11, 2002 2:31 PM | | Why someone else chooses to use 1 gear?
I have one of these EBB, disc, suspension equipped SingleSpeeds you are refering to.
Why? Well it is the ideal bike for riding in the winter here. Rim brakes suck when the going gets wet.. Disc brakes work better. My local trails are more fun with a little suspension (I've only got 65mm so it must be more pure than a long-travel fork eh?). Oh yeah and deraileurs suck in the mud and crud we get to ride in for most of the year here so I run 1 speed.
I don't understand why some people seem to think an EBB is so complex. It's less complex than a set of rim brakes, or a freewheel the technology has been around forever, gee two circles inside one another that are not concentric, I wonder when Aristtotle first drew that on a sheet of Vellum. It just wasn't used in mountain bikes till recently.
I'm not riding a SS for purity or simplicity or to be part of the crowd. I'm riding one because it's the best bike for the job, it breaks down less than my geared full-suspension bike.
My goal is to be able to get out and ride, having 4 bikes makes that happen since I've always got at least one in good working order.
Can't we all just get along? |
| Get along? | Kevin Basil
Sep 11, 2002 3:21 PM | | Has nothing to do with getting along, the question is more simplistic than world peace. The issue is marketing progression. It starts with the sus fork, gotta' have 'em, then the EBB, gotta' have 'em, moves onto the discs, gotta have 'em, then full suspension, gotta' have 'em. What's next? Cassettes and derailleurs?
It's not that I really give a d@mn about what my brother rides, my comments have more to do with long term MTB exposure and watching the industry in facination. For years I've been witness to the marketing and design pendulum swing from one extreme to the other and never tarrying in the middle for long. I guess there is no money to be made in the middle. Everytime a good idea comes along some SOB has to just run it into the ground by making it more and more complex, expensive, fragile, and in the long term even less capable of doing the job it was intended to do. The bicycle industry has discovered and embraced planned obsolescence in a big way.
For the record, I don't think EBBs are complex but relative to a set of BMX or horizontal dropouts they are just one more thing to slip, seize, fail. What's so tough about horizontal dropouts? What's so hard about nutted axles? Rim brakes have doing performing wonderfully in all conditions for who knows how many years if they're set up right.
I'm ranting, I admit it. |
| Rim brakes don't work that well in <b> ALL </b> conditions. | Brandon
Sep 11, 2002 4:07 PM | | I'm not trying to antagonize you but to examine the source of your rant and maybe bring some perspective. You are just lumping things together that don't belong and making crazy claims about some of them.
You'll believe me when you try to ride in some slimy, half-frozen mud, in sub-freezing temperatures in freezing rain when your rim brakes simply stop working at all. Disc brakes keep working in even the worst conditions.
No I am not making this up I've done it plenty of times, others were there to witness it as well. This is always a definite possibility on November -> March rides around here.
Rim brakes of course wear through rim sidewalls requiring me to replace a rim a couple times a year which sure is a bigger hassle than swapping some disc pads or a rotor.
EBB's don't slip, don't seize and don't fail any more often than slotted dropouts slip. If they were such a bother then Tandems wouldn't be using them by the millions.
And Nutted axles are more difficult to deal with than a QR axle, I never said it works better just easier. Do you use a nutted axle on your front wheel if so why don't you use a nutted axle it would work just as well and you'd eliminate that trouble-prone QR.
They make for one less tool to carry. I can fix practically everything on my SS with a single 5mm allen key and a chain tool.
I have seen an old (pioneer-era) bike in a mining museum up in Washington state, the bottom bracket was mounted so it slid on the chainstays, not the axle in the dropouts. Does it really matter that much whether I choose to move my BB or my axle it all does the same job and the eccentric just does it the way I prefer.
I've ridden without all these things (I started MTBing in '95 which isn't all that long ago) but I've found over time that this setup is the most reliable and simple system to ride and maintain I've ever used. |
| Agree 100%... | SS_MB-7
Sep 12, 2002 6:08 AM | | As someone who has been riding/racing on my SS for nearly 2 years -- including -25C frigid winter temps with lots of snow-n-ice, followed by soupy mud in the spring and early summer -- I personally will absolutely not ride a MTB with rim brakes! Fortunately, the eBB solution is ideal for SS with discs.
In these 2 years of use-n-abuse on my SS, the eBB hasn't failed once! Never slipped, seized, etc. eBBs have been used in tandems for years and have proven very reliable. Their application to SS is relatively new thanks to disc brakes.
Speaking of discs, I've been a disc-rider for 3 years (Hope C2 Pros, Formula B4s and now Hope Minis). Once installed, you do not need to touch 'em -- just ride 'em. Also, considering the conditions I ride/race in, rim brakes are less than ideal since pads quickly wear, rims wear and braking is unreliable. Discs alleviate all of this.
Are discs and/or suspension for you? I can't comment. But don't say "WTF" to others for using discs, suspension, etc. on their SS. To each his own.
Ride Hard,
Mike B. |
| Your mistake is right here................................... | Sparty
Sep 11, 2002 4:21 PM | | "I thought SS was about the simplicity of the bike..."
Maybe it is for you. Fine, more power to you.
But with all due respect, please don't tell me what I should ride or why I should ride.
Considering your rant in totality, questioning what others ride or what motivates others to ride is simple hypocrisy on your part.
Be free. Ride and let ride. Whatever reason you want is good.
Peace.
--Sparty |
| Be cool honey bunny | Kevin Basil
Sep 11, 2002 7:54 PM | | I'm not telling you what to ride or not ride. I'm not even being a hypocritical, at least I don't think I am. I freely admitted to having bowed down before the golden calf of hi tech. I admit I probably went a little too far, but seeing the pictures of the full suspension single speed, tipped it for me. I mean seriously, all I could think was that the next big "advancement" in single speeds will be gears. I can hear the magazine dips already, "the Rohloff 14-speed hub and 2003 XTR are the latestgreatest advancements in the single speed experience!" |
| I doubt that, sweetheart | Spar¡cus
Sep 11, 2002 9:15 PM | | Singlespeeding is what defines singlespeeding.
That's all.
Surrender?
--Spary |
| brang me thet noo deffy nish unn end hurrie | gonzostrike
Sep 11, 2002 9:31 PM | | Somehow, little Kevvy,
in your mind the term "singlespeed" means
b fully rigid, primitive wherever practical, no derailleurs, no disc brakes, no suspension of any type.
what a crass, self-impressed egomaniac you are.
b singlespeeding is defined by the SINGLE SPEED.
don't try to tell me that suspension forks are a problem. I suppose you use solid rubber tires? nah, didn't think so.
disc brakes? well if you ride like my Aunt Sally and never ride anything steep, wet or technical enough to require disc brakes, then perhaps I can see going to a coaster brake or ultra-primitive cantilever brakes.
you're so full of Luddism and preaching against technomaterialism that you forget the simpler stuff.
nobody in here is telling you,
i hey Kevin, if you ride SS you absolutely MUST get discs, EBB and the latest & greatest SID World Cup Black Box Graphite Noodle fork.
so lay the $*^! off it, man.
sheesh. what are you, a friggin' Californian? |
| Ooooooh. | Kevin Basil
Sep 12, 2002 5:41 AM | | Damn, you almost had some wit going there. No, I'm not from Cali. Since your limited mental capacity can't climb over the curb of applying a geographical reference to a personal opinion, let me help you out by telling you I'm from Colorado. Oooh, I want to play this game. Don't tell me, let me guess: you're from Montana, your girlfriend is a sheep, you wear camo's when you ride, and you have some strange affectation of Ted Nugent's mannerisms? Am I even close?
Talk about self-impressed egomaniac. What'd you ride before you went discs? I suppose you never rode any thing steeper, wetter, or more technical than your Aunt Sally before you got discs, huh? What? Didn't ride before dics? Piss off sonny. |
| re: Where's SS going and why? | surlysoul
Sep 11, 2002 5:29 PM | | I have seen this discussion on this board several times and have had it in my shop and with my friends and I would like to add my rant.
first technology is not the opposite of simplicity. Are you riding these fully rigid bikes on heavy straight guage steel or reynolds 853 or titanium alloy certainly there have been some advances in frame material. for the disc brake question there are several different disc brakes I have avids they are easy to adjust the pads last forever my rims don't wear out as fast and if I hit a rim I can still ride and have brakes. I don't ride them because they stop fast I just like the feel better and the consistency. I like the clean look of my frame without canti mounts. My bike is a soulcraft plowboy with a 2003 duke coil over fork and avids my rigid kelly fork is on the way. I think my bike is the cats meow for me maybe not for you hope you like yours. |
| re: Where's SS going and why? Longwinded reply...sorry | Josh Ogle
Sep 11, 2002 6:23 PM | | Well, well, well. I'm finally getting to posting to the board and this seems like a pretty darn good topic to start with. (I hope this doesn't sound too much like a shameless plug)
To get started, I think singlespeeding IS about simplicity first and foremost. The fact that I have a new-fangled, front suspended, EBB, disk singlespeed doesn't really contradict this. The suspension fork is merely a concession to going fast. I've ridden rigid and suspended singles, and if you want to go really fast, there's no comparison. I prefer a short travel fork to long travel personally. Rear sus/softtails are another matter. I don't think you can beat the immediate feel of a well designed hardtail, and steel is so programmable you can make it can ride however your design dictates.
Eccentric BB singles are easier to work on, and you can adjust your brakes or chain tension without affecting the adjustment of the other. Say you get a flat on the trail. With horizontals, you get out the wrench, loosen both nuts, slide the wheel forward to get the chain off, remove the wheel, fix the flat, put the wheel back in, slide it back into place, tighten the right nut some, check that the wheel's square, tighten the left nut, finish the right, stow the wrench and get going. With the EBB, you pop the QR, drop the wheel, fix the flat, slip the wheel back in, tighten the QR and get rolling. That's a lot less hassle, and one less tool to carry.
Disk brakes are better than rim brakes. I probably shouldn't admit this in a public forum, but I don't really bother checking my rims for true anymore. Really bent is one thing, but 1/8" of rim wobble means nothing on the dirt, and even less to disk brakes. That amount of runout will cause every rim brake made to rub. Disks gather less muck than rim brakes in snotty conditions, are less likely to foul the tire, and are not subject to geometry change as the pads wear or are replaced (somewhat less of an issue with linear than cantis). Besides that, wheels are stronger when built to a uniform tension than when built to being perfectly true. You can't have both.
Chain tension adjustment is a different issue. Here, the EBB singles still win out, but not all eccentrics are created equal. With horizontal dropouts you will eventually have to adjust the brakes as the wheel moves back in the dropouts. Sometimes the brake adjustment comes soon, sometimes after a few adjustments. The key is that the relationship between the rear axle and brake pads (disk or rim) is not fixed. Depending on your dropout material, the faces might become indexed as the hardened axle faces are tightened into them, which will limit your overall adjustability. With an eccentric, you never have to make a brake adjustment when you make a chain tension adjustment. But this is where the eccentrics start to vary. We used to use a press-in eccentric with two set screws. Small and light, but not so cool for adjustment, as the set screws mar the insert, you start to get indexed adjustments. The new inserts we (and Seven and Teesdale and...) use have a wedge inside that tightens with a 4mm allen key. More parts in the eccentric, but the only tool necessary is one key, it's infinitely adjustable, and allows you to use a thinner shell than split shell eccentrics do (Which in turn means you can weld thinner tubing to them, and that's not a bad thing).
So, this is getting a little longwinded, isn't it? Look, here's the deal: I like suspension, but I could give it up. I like disks, but I could give them up too. I LOVE eccentric BBs and will never go back to horizontal dropouts. Horizontals make for simpler frames, but I've lived with, ridden with, and built with both, and eccentrics make the whole experience better.
Thanks for your time,
Joshua O. @ Jericho
Small type disclaimer: Horizontals ARE great for track bikes. |
| so who's the Jericho girl? | Ogler
Sep 11, 2002 7:13 PM | | nm |
| Eeeeeasy there, Mr. Stalker-man. That's my sister... jk | Josh Ogle
Sep 12, 2002 12:24 PM | | |
| What's with all the negative vibe in this thread?... | terminaut
Sep 11, 2002 10:08 PM | | Guys... I think variety is great and it's such a bummer to see someone get so absorbed in thinking that singlespeeds should fit a certain mold. I've got all sorts of singles; from Singleated MTB conversions to true track bikes, from high-zoot titanium frames to an aluminum Huffy, from a pre-war-era rig to the latest-most-coolest-totally-one-off custom frame that my mind could possibly imagine up. ...And I think they're all great! I just wish I had enough free time to ride each and everyone one of them as much as I want.
How about we not worry about what others are doing, and instead just revel in the joy of our freedom to ride whatever it is that makes us happy? |
| I'm sick of all the "love" on this forum...This is War! | singleminded
Sep 12, 2002 6:13 AM | | Oh Brothers of the Pure SS, we are in a war for the soul of the greatest movement the world has ever known: singlespeeding. Do not relent! The very future of our planet depends on whether or not we let Sparticus ride with a springy fork and brakes from that Devil's tool called a motorcycle.
Let me assure you, my Brothers, that when I get a Kona A full-suspension SS and weld disc brakes on it, and then ride it over and over again, I will not enjoy it. No, I will have that heretical blaspheming "SS" solely for the purpose of research, because we need to understand our enemey in order to defeat him. But be warned, my Brothers, do not try this yourselves.
Only I can be trusted.... |
| true that. nm | Timan
Sep 12, 2002 8:13 AM | | nm |
| Maybe you need to... | Roger
Sep 12, 2002 6:30 AM | | ask yourself why you care, or at the least why it bothers you? |
| A classic chest beating match. nm | JAK
Sep 12, 2002 6:55 AM | | ! |
| yo JAK whassup? new bike info! | gonzostrike
Sep 12, 2002 8:17 AM | | The Isis frame sold in one day of ads on the MTBR.com classifieds, so now I've sold the Airborne and the Isis. Bought a 2000 K2 Brass Monkey frame on super-closeout ($150) and started building it last night. It has my Z3 QR20 and the Avid V's for now, but will get the Minis as soon as I repair the lever/master cylinder for the rear (tweaked it up in Nelson). Looks like it'll be fun, will try to ride it on some urban tonight. I'll bring it to Happy Hour tomorrow.
What's up this weekend? In town? Riding? |
| well alright.... | JAK
Sep 12, 2002 8:32 AM | | This weekend is the Swan Crest Challenge. Point to Point. Friday night swill at takeout, drive to start saturday morning. Its the most scenic piece of singletrack I have ever riden. when riding, at any time look to the right and you will see 12 or so ridges..all in the Bob and all in the wilderness. To left are the biggies of the Missions. It is Alpine tr #7. Lotsa grizzzz. The $15 entry fee goes to the Glacier Avy Institute. If your into it let me know. |
| Whaaat?! Rim brakes?! Broken Discs!? | Kevin Basil
Sep 12, 2002 9:50 AM | | Yo Ted, hope you don't plan on riding anything technical, steep, or wet with that monkey until you get those discs on. Better hurry up and get them fixed and until then just keep it on the sidewalk. |
| go home Luddite, you don't know what you're saying | gonzostrike
Sep 12, 2002 12:02 PM | | I suppose you think yourself a clown. Well you are. An ASS-CLOWN.
go back to riding your Balsa Wood, Coaster Brake, piece o' shyte SS and leave the rest of us to our own definitions of fun.
you can handle that little request, can't you?
I don't have to justify my parts selections to you or anyone else. Your attempt at mocking me is strangely indicative of YOUR OWN personality flaws. |
| Ah, it's the irony. Besides, I'm more of a Hutterite. (nm) | Kevin Basil
Sep 12, 2002 12:19 PM | | |
| You're tinny, not irony. Cheap metal. Soft. Malleable. | gonzostrike
Sep 12, 2002 1:47 PM | | Sn, not Fe |
| bring on the Flintstone bikes w/o cranks, chain, etc. Footpower! | Hollywood
Sep 12, 2002 9:06 AM | | nm |
| I think | Brandon
Sep 12, 2002 9:49 AM | | I'll just strap some rubber to my feet with bits of leather, put a big bag on my back and head out. None of that complicated machinery for me. Heck, then I can even SingleSpeed in Wilderness areas. |
| I think | Rudy
Sep 12, 2002 1:30 PM | | Sweet POV Brandon. |
| Wilderness has some good points. (nm) | Brandon
Sep 12, 2002 7:34 PM | | |
| I'll have my cake and eat it too thanks! | ideasguy
Oct 29, 2002 9:46 PM | | I love discs. I love my ss. Hey I wish I could put Discs on my ss. I can't afford it. But someday soon...and that would me my fave bike. Full ridgid of course cause I think I ride my ss better with no squish. And thats that. It not a revolution...its an option. Its not about pure unpure. It about YOU and ME having as much fun as possible, on bikes. |
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