|   Square or Splined | Maxx
Nov 20, 2002 5:26 PM | | Hello, I am currently building up my first SS. I was wondering what
type of BB most of you are using, Square or Splined?... and Why?
Thanks |
| re: Square or Splined | Gratefulrider
Nov 20, 2002 6:10 PM | | hola,
well, I'm glad you asked, because I've been wanting to vent about this splined BB fad. Granted, I have yet to actually ride on a splined BB, but I would advise you go square taper... This whole splined business seems to me to just be another way for someone to make a buck. I don't see any advantage other than a new shiny toy.. I can also just see a splined BB getting stripped down to a bare nub.. Do yourself a favor, stick with what you know works. Square BBs are a proven design that have passed the test of time.. Not to metion, since splined has hit the market, square BBs and cranks are considerably less expensive..There are too many damn new gimmicks out there... Personally, I try and stay away from all of it.. Of coarse this is coming from a person who also doesn't believe in full susupension or disc brakes..And will never ride an aluminum bike again... But seriously people... There are two reasons to ride SS 1) fun 2) simplicity, and if you're going to build a rigid steel single speed in the first place, then why bother with a complication like a splined BB... That felt good.... thanks... and no offense to anyone who likes aluminum, isis, disc brakes, full suspension or anything else. peace |
| it's really two separate questions.... | singleminded
Nov 22, 2002 1:14 PM | | Question 1: Which spindle
b design
is inherently better?
2. Which
b type of BB
should you actually buy?
The answer to the first question has got to be a slam dunk in favor of splined. All else being equal, splined spindles are going to be stronger, stiffer and less likely to fail. The equally important spindle interface at the crankarms is less likely to splay, creak or slip on the spindle. The splined design also allows a
b positive stop
in a way that square spindles can't. In other words, your crankarms and your chainline sit in the same place no matter how many times you reinstall or re-tighten the cranks. This is a good thing whether you're SS-ing or using a front der. Thus, the spindle
b design
means
b more
simplicity and ease of use. Not less.
The answer to Question 2 is more difficult because, to put it bluntly, Truvativ F'd it all up. Their BBs are almost-universally acknowledged to be crap. If Truvativ made square-taper BBs they'd probably be bad too, but at least they're harder to screw up (because the bearings don't have to be as small and the taper can be more out of spec without making the whole thing unusable).
In contrast, Shimano's splined BBs and cranks have proven to be excellent in just about every respect. |
| Ummm raceface and fsa ISIS bb's have sucked also... | DeeEight
Nov 23, 2002 8:18 PM | | and well, King still isn't producing their BB's yet so yer pretty much
S.O.L. whichever one you pick. |
| defender of splined...long response... | Mr Tiles
Nov 20, 2002 7:15 PM | | I don't disagree with the previous post about square taper but the issue I ran into with it was flex. I bypassed ISIS cranks and went straight to Profiles and have been more than satisfied with them. The thing people don't realize sometimes is the shear amount of force that is put on the crank arms and b/bs when there is only one(usually tall) gear. My RF 180s and RF chromo b/b flexed like rubber when I was really torquing up a hill to the degree that it actually derailled the chain in a few instances. Every since I installed the 48 splined profile b/b and cranks, flex has been a nonissue.
I have never stripped a square taper b/b but I have, on several occasions, seen crank arms stripped out by others because the right amount of torque was not applied when they were installed. It is key to torque square taper cranks down to mfg's specified torque. You'll probably get a lot of responses on the issue of what is better and what it's going to boil down to is you actually trying both configurations to see what is best for you. |
| another defender of splined...short response... | quaffimodo
Nov 20, 2002 9:50 PM | | I have to agree on the flex issue. I've got one square taper BB left in my fleet, a Campy Super Record, and it's noticeably less rigid than its splined counterparts. Infinitely cooler, though....... |
| flexed like rubber? | jh_on_the_cape
Nov 21, 2002 6:13 AM | | I have a square BB spindle. Mine doesnt feel like it's flexing like rubber, though.
I just thought I would add that info for the person who asked the question.
My cheapy stock BB doesnt flex too much. I have race face cranks.
I can feel the BB shell flex on my steel roadbike, though. Just realize that your bike can flex, also. Like Arnold. |
| flexed like rubber? | JeffC
Nov 21, 2002 6:24 AM | | Right on, the BB isn't the only thing that can flex. Splined makes no difference if it's teamed up with flexy cranks or a flexy frame. I've never understood using burly cranks and a ti BB axle. The real benefit that I see is that you can remove/replace the cranks and always get the same chain line because of the hard stop on the spline. Not needing a crank puller to do that job is nice, too. |
| flexed like rubber? - that's what I said... | Mr Tiles
Nov 21, 2002 7:21 AM | | compared to profiles I'm running, the rf turbines/rf b/b felt "rubbery." My chameleon is not what I'd consider a flexy frame... |
| consider what your comparing... | noman
Nov 21, 2002 8:29 AM | | first off, i would like to see ANYONE flex a hardend high carbon steel bottom bracket spindle, you won't, you will break it before you could deform it enough to actually notice the flex...
as for race face cranks flexing like rubber... well, consider what you are comparing, machined billet aluminum, to tubular 4130 chromoly... also, look at the thickness of those RF cranks, fairly thin right? now, consider the weight difference... of course they will feel flexy next to profiles, profiles were originally made for bmx use where they will see ALOT more abuse then most single speed mtb's will ever dish out... and what were the rf's made for? racing, pure and simple... to be light, and stiff(for a light weight crank)... so, saying they flex is certainly relative...
noman |
| consider what your comparing...response | Mr Tiles
Nov 21, 2002 8:39 AM | | I think this whole discussion is getting away from the original question. The question was whether or not to install a square taper setup on a singlespeed. My answer(my honest opinion based on the way I ride along with fellow riders) was not to go with square taper on a singlespeed. This is based on personal experience with the equipment. Depending on the application, square taper definitely has a use. It simply didn't stand up to the abuse I threw at it on my singlespeed. If you are commuting or light trail riding, even xc racing the square taper would probably be ideal. If you are dirt jumping, dropping, urban assaulting, etc...it wouldn't take long to see that squares would probably flex significantly. This is all my opinion based on experience...take it for what it's worth... |
| re: Square or Splined | TwoWheelinTim
Nov 20, 2002 9:08 PM | | All my bikes are square taper. The most recent addition was just this spring. I was on the fence for this bike. The cost factor is what pushed me over to the square side. I picked up a RF Chrom-Mo for around fifty smackers...new.
I strongly disagree that splined BBs were developed primarily to line somebody's pockets. I would agree that they probably had that in mind as an added benefit of selling something that will catch on because it works well. I feel the development of the splined BB is just natural progression. I have been a mechanic all of my adult life and have seen time and again that splined shafts and spindles are here to stay and not a "fad". I say it's about time our sport caught up with turn of the (twentieth) century technology.
Tim |
| re: Square or Splined | jasonschlueter
Nov 21, 2002 9:29 AM | | i'm a fan of the square taper but it's harder and harder to find a damn crank that'll work with them. the isis is a good idea in that it's making a standard (opposed to shimano/nazi). it was hard for me to find a 180 square tapered (jis) crankset for my new, still in the works, single speed. i don't notice any flex though. i'm about 160lbs and cranking hard and the square feels just like the splined. square is cool but it's a new standard that's going to take off. live with it, i guess. |
| Square | Gonyoda
Nov 21, 2002 10:17 AM | | Square mostly because of price in the long run:
And a personal anecdote:
I ran ISIS for about 2 years. Went through 3 Truvativ ISIS BB's before settling on a RF ISIS XS. Had Truvativ Stylo Team crank arms fall off 4 times during rides or races, ruing the splines on the crank arms. Torqued to spec using a high quality torque wrench. Even tried locktite on the bolts. They also creaked. Got fed up and put on shimano un72 and RF next lp cranks earlier this year on my gearie and haven't had to do anything with them yet.
I've had square taper since my first mtb back in early 90s. I replace my $20 shimano square taper BB [un72] about once every 2 years usually due to wiggly bearings. I replaced the cranks when I replaced my drivetrain from 6 to 7 to 8 to 9speed, or when that one time my pedal bearings seized, unscrewed the pedal and stripped the threads out of the crank arm.
My cuss came with a square taper off-brand BB with RF cranks. That BB died about 3 months after I got the bike, replaced it with a shimano un72, and 1500 miles later, its still kicking.
Why spend the extra money on a "rebuildable" RF BB when you can buy 5 shimano square BB's for the same amount? Do you know how hard it is to clean those tiny threads on the bearing cups??!?! Fancy square cranks cost the same (or are cheaper) as fancy isis cranks.
Of course, there's the Profile/BMX level of splined cranks which I'm sure are more reliable, stiffer and stronger than any MTB cranks (isis or square), but I have no personal experience with them.
Just my 3.5 cents...
- John |
| re: Square or Splined | itsdoable
Nov 21, 2002 10:33 AM | | If you're getting Shimano cranks, go splined. Cheap, strong, don't creak, chain line never gets screwed up if you over/under tighten the crack bolts, and they work well in practice.
If your getting a non-shimano crank, then I'm split - there are no good & cheap ISIS BBs yet, and we've seen many out of tolerance BB's and cranks that just cause more problems. |
| Splined all the way. No question for me. | TwoCircles Tim
Nov 21, 2002 10:44 AM | | In my experience splined are just stronger. In the square days I was deforming XT spindles by twisting them at the rate of one to two a year. The tapers in my XT cranks were deforming from twisting one to two pair a year. RaceFace arms did last a bit over a year before deforming.
I got XTR splined in '96. Took me 3 seasons of hard riding to damage the splines. I'm currently using XT cranks on my SS and after a season and a half I killed one BB by wrecking the bearings - the spindle was absolutely fine. The cranks are fine - and they come in 180s. '02 LX and XT arms are built the same but LX don't come in 180. My opinion is get an XT setup. It may not be as "cool" as a dedicated SS crank, but they work absolutely fine and almost every shop stocks XT bottom brackets if you kill one. |
| Splined because.. | Meat Foot
Nov 21, 2002 12:08 PM | | IMO (sorta long)...
My last set of XT cranks were bolted to a square tapered BB. From the factory never had any trouble. I was cleaning it one day and noticed some cracks in the threads of the crank arm (where you place the removal tool). So I removed the crank arm and there were also cracks on the inside. Bummer. So, I think they were over tightened from the factory because: 1) They had never been removed before and 2) I had not crashed on the left side where there were cracks (only the right side, he he he). I ended up replacing the cranks with an XT hollowtech and octalink setup. The bike was then stolen. I do not have long term use with a splined set up. My new bike is coming with splined XT stuff so we will see. Remember too, the crank arms are going onto a tapered solid piece of chromoly typically. The cranks are typically munimula (aluminum backerds). Aluminum will probably fail first. Anyways, my brain thinks these things and they may not always be correct. |
| Single speeding is about anti-advancement | Roger
Nov 21, 2002 1:15 PM | | Singlespeeding is about anti-advancement. You can't be a true singlespeeder if you buy into all the new product hype. Splined, disc brakes, suspension. If you have any of it you're a fraud in the SS world! |
| no, ss is about... | scrublover
Nov 21, 2002 2:08 PM | | riding a bike with one gear....and enjoying it however it's setup. so i am on a steel full rigid bike with square tapers....and front and rear disc brakes with an eccentric bb. i guess i'm not a real ss'er now. what a jackass. |
| Let me guess, Roger -- you run a solid steel cottered crank..... | Sparty
Nov 21, 2002 2:47 PM | | ...circa 1965.
My opinion: there are technological "advancements" that are worth embracing and those that are not. Take clipless pedals for example (those are the pedals that I personally prefer to call 'step in' pedals cuz the name actually makes sense, but anyway...) Personally, I can't imagine NOT using this type of pedal for the type of riding I do, but then they have their place and not everyone agrees with me about that.
And that's my point. No matter how absurd a particular technological 'advancement' may seem to one person, there may be somebody else for whom it is the solution to an agonizing problem. Although I own no splined cranks, I hear they are lighter and stronger than square taper. What could be wrong with that?
And re: the earlier comment about a company introducing splined cranks just to line their pockets, well, hallelujah brother! That is why people go into business -- to make money. Build a better mousetrap and the world will beat a path to your door. If it's not really a better mousetrap, the truth cannot stay hidden for long. Trust our free market system to do its job of sorting the wheat from the chaff.
No disagreement or rant intended. Just another skewed perspective... mine.
--Sparty |
| Actually, Roger does not have cranks... | shiggy
Nov 21, 2002 3:44 PM | | ...or rear cog or chain or pedals. Needs very good shoes though. He runs his saddle low and pushes with his feet,
i boneshaker
style, circa 1865. Much lighter that way.
i Me thinks he is joking. |
| Hehehe! | Roger
Nov 22, 2002 12:26 PM | | Just wanted to see if I could stir up a lil sh!t. A couple suckers bit. ;0) |
| Hehehe! | itsdoable
Nov 25, 2002 9:03 AM | | Hmm, good way to turn people off the forum... see ya. |
| SS is about... | itsdoable
Nov 21, 2002 2:46 PM | | I thought SS'ing is about having fun, and anything that breaks less, creaks less, and works well means you can have more fun.... |
| re: Square or Splined | 1speed
Nov 21, 2002 4:59 PM | | I run RF w/RF splined BB and they are super sweet. never makes a peep and has never ever come loose one bit. I have had RF square tapers that were awesome but would need to be tightened once in a while. I only went with the splined because they were the same price and got great reviews. I have nothing but great things to say about them. |
| stayed square | Cygnus
Nov 21, 2002 8:50 PM | | I've not moved to splined mainly due to compatibility with both of my single speed bikes (e.g., the same tools, parts, knowledge). both SS bikes have phil wood bottom brackets (square) and raceface cranks. not a peep out of either one. mechanically, i think i can see the advantage of splined, and maybe i'll change someday. but for now, they seem to address a potential problem that i'm not having. |
| Square... | DeeEight
Nov 23, 2002 5:38 PM | | lighter, readily available selection of matching light cranks, tons of
BB brand possibilities, proven system still not enduring teething problems and quality control glitches like splined setups are.
That and the fact I have a hundred or so Titanium square-taper BB's. :) |
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