|   Attn rigid riders...what's your secret? | Drevil
Mar 27, 2003 8:58 PM | | I run rigid 99.05% of the time. But on some of my favorite trails (which happen to be rocky), my hands are a mess afterwards. I don't like running a shock on singlespeeds because I feel like they sap your energy but if my hands keep feeling like this afterwards, I'm afraid some serious damage may be happening.
Por ejemplo, yesterday Mugg and I rode at the Frederick Watershed. It's rocky and fast, and I rattled around so much that I thought my eyes were going to pop out of my head. My usual setup (which pertains to shock absorption) is a Kelly disc fork, WTB Weirwolf Race (30 psi) mounted on Mavic X317, Easton carbon bar mated with Oury lock-on grips. I usually ride with Pearl Izumi gel full-finger gloves.
I have a SID SL which I sometimes swap out for on the really rocky rides, but I have ALWAYS crashed with them. They suck down, get stuck, then I flip and endo. I've given up on it, so I've mounted it to my wife's bike.
So what's my question? For those of you that run rigid, what else should I try to get some relief from painful hands after fast rocky rides? Bigger tire? If so, what? Lower pressure? Fat squishy grips?
Or should I just give in and get that Fox F80RLT? |
| Drop bars! | shiggy©®
Mar 27, 2003 9:27 PM | | It does help. I can not ride straight bars for more than a half hour without hand pain - even with suspension. |
| Can you use regular MTB brake levers with those? | jh_on_the_cape
Mar 28, 2003 7:35 AM | | I have been thinking about getting a pair, but I dont want to HAVE to get those diacompe V levers... |
| NO. Never. No way | shiggy
Mar 28, 2003 8:49 AM | | Different bar diameter and
i way
different shape. Straight bar levers do not work on dropbars. |
| Tried it... | Drevil
Mar 28, 2003 12:45 PM | | ...although I haven't tried it on a really hard, rocky ride on my Chester. I put it on my Cross Check and I think I'm going to leave it there. |
| loosen up the elbows and ........ | banks
Mar 27, 2003 9:40 PM | | be smooth; slow down-look ahead-and go ride-don't hang on with white knuckles death grip.
Suspension allows you to ride in more comfort, longer if it's correctly set up; it allows you to not get hammered in the hands, arms, shoulders, neck and upper back, compared to rigid. Get a fork that has a lockout-FOX is the way to go; the SID isn't good with rocky singletrack, it's too flexy.
3 of my bikes are set up rigid and I know what you going through with the mechanical beat up machine pain. I can't ride the same trails at the same speed and comfortabilty as I can with squish in the front.
Get the FOX and you can lock it out when you want to get out of the saddle and stand or ride 'rigid'; but the way that the fork is made you'll be much happier and ride longer with it unlocked. Give it a try. |
| bending at the elbows... | TwoWheelinTim
Mar 28, 2003 9:23 AM | | and knees works for me. My arms and legs are my shock absorbers. I do however maintain a "death grip" on the bars when I'm bouncing a lot. I found if I keep my grip loose the bars would jam into the palm of my hand when I hit a bump a bit hard. This would cause excruiating pain in my right wrist when it happened because I have a bad right wrist (metal screws and such). "Death gripping" the bars when I'm bouncing a lot keeps this from happening. I don't maintain this grip all the time though. After all, I'm not a GI Joe with kung foo grip.
Tim |
| Good points... | Drevil
Mar 28, 2003 12:47 PM | | ...like you and many others suggested, I think my biggest problem is the "White Knuckles Kung Fu Grip".
I agree about the SID. It's flexy and it just don't treat me right. My lighter weight wife will enjoy it more. |
| prepare the rider as well as the equipment (long) | been_jammin
Mar 28, 2003 12:16 AM | | From your description of equipment, it sounds to me like you are at least 80% there for equipment. IMHO, you should make sure that you spend a similar amount of effort (read: time and energy) preparing yourself physically for riding a fully rigid bike on rugged trails. I rode rigid SS exclusively for a year, then with a Marzocchi for 6 mo. Now I have a full squish for endurance rides/racing and I'm back to rigid for SS. I do not experience hand pain now (though I used to).
First, allow me to comment on the stuff side since it's the easy part... then I'll give you the goods on the hard part: preparation.
Your equipment is about as good as it gets. However, be sure that your grips aren't too thin or hard. I had Yeti ODI lockons but put them on a squishy bike because they're rather hard and, frankly, they're kinda fat--especially when wearing Pearl gel gloves.
Here's my suggested equipment list, in parens I'll tell you my setup:
1. handlebar height: at grips, even with your saddle - best for serious body English downhill and for standing on while climbs (even steven)
2. wide riser handlebars: std XC bars aren't wide enough for the pulling leverage and risers allow a bit of fine tuning adjustments(Profile FR risers of 6061 alu alloy--I tourque the snot out of my bars and didn't like flexy carbon bars)
3. thin but soft and tacky grips: thin 'cause you want to wear gel gloves and still be able to securely but loosely hang on when descending, soft to take the buzz off; grips are cheap - try 'em all! (Specialized S-Works)
4. gel gloves: full finger or not is your choice (Pearl Izumi gel)
5. a good steel fork: you need to be confident that your fork will never snap; light is good, reliable is better (Bianchi curved blade unicrown fork: it has some give and neutral geometry, I bent one on a seriously stupid drop--it didn't snap so I am pretty confident that the new one won't let me down)
6. a strong front wheel: what good is a rigid fork when you get deflection from a flexy front wheel? (Sun XC rim laced 3x with 14g DT spokes to a bolt-on Surly 1x1 hub)
7. big rubber with low pressure: high volume tire with strong sidewalls and confidence-inspiring side knobs, not too heavy, rolls fairly well, try Stan's tubeless kit and never worry about pinch flats (WTB MutanoRaptor Race 2.4 at 32#)
8. strong brakes with good modulation: one finger braking allows 3 fingers and thumb for control; loose but secure grip on flats and downhill (XTR V-brakes with XT adjustable leverage levers, lowest leverage setting for rear brake and about 1/3 in from lowest for front--I like modulation)
9. replace cables and brake pads each Spring: you want all the stopping power you can control and new bits help (no name cables and XTR pads)
10. brake levers: you'll be out of the saddle for nearly all descents so set 'em up to be in a neutral position with wrists straight when you are standing (way over, almost pointing down; I can also pull about 1/3 of lever travel before the pads contact the rim--I get best feel for modulation there)
For physical preparation, you need to add strength and flexibility to your hands, wrists, arms and core (abs and low back). You can't play tackle football without working out, neither can you SS. Either sport will chew you up and spit you out if you are not strong. Lift weights the way a sport climber or boulderer does: lots of reps to develop muscular endurance w/o bulk. Downhillers must. Wide receivers in football must. You must if you want to avoid fatigue and injury when you SS. Once a week is enough if you're young. 2x each week if you are over 35 (like me). Adding strength without maintaining or increasing flexibility is counterproductive. Check out Anderson's Stretching book from the library. Do all the cycling stretches, even the ones for roadies. Find stretches in the book for hands/wrists/arms and do those, too.
Finally, ride like water. Lift the front end over nasty rocks. Ride fluid lines. Unweight over stuff. Learn to bunny hop. Get good at jumping, and especially landing. Avoid the death grip--this is easy to forget in a race. Use your back brake to scrub off speed while descending and try to let the front tire "run" through the bumps. Keep your arms bent a little. You have several inches of travel available in your arms and legs. Use it. Ever seen a Supercrosser laying on th throttle thru the woops? You bike should be able to buck like a bronco under you while your center of gravity travels in a plane. Since you can't see all the little bumps, night riding is good practice for developing the kind of "float" you want. |
| Wow! Excellent response... | Drevil
Mar 28, 2003 1:05 PM | | I've gone through all your points, and I think I hit most of them:
1) The bar and saddle are almost at the same height now.
2) The Easton carbon bar I'm using is 26" wide. I've been riding with (at least) that width for at least 4-5 years now, and whenever I've tried something smaller, it feels too twitchy or cramped.
3) Smaller grips seem like they'd be less shock absorbing, so I've always used thicker grips. Maybe I could give that a try.
4) Yup.
5) Kelly disc. Good stuff, I think.
6) XT disc w/ X317 rim, 3 cross.
7) WTB Weirwolf usually. When it's drier, Mutano 2.4. Occasionally I run the Tioga 2.3 DH w/ a lower pressure, but it feels squirmier. I guess the pressure's too low then, huh?
8) Used to run Paul Motolites w/ Paul levers. They get gunked up too easily, IMHO. So for the moment I've swapped to Hope Mini disc brake up front, w/ Magura HS-33 rear brake w/ salmon pads. Work much better and aren't affected by mud and dirt.
9) Hydraulics are even better than gunk-prone cables ;^)
10) I already do that.
As for your workout routine, I need to do a LOT more of that. I don't lift weights. My only workouts are riding. I guess I can't escape the situps and weightlifting. However, I do stretch, and that has provided some relief.
Thanks for your response!
rickyd |
| About that Sid............ | Jeromelo
Mar 28, 2003 2:59 AM | | I own a Sid Sl and a white brother XC-4. I understand the sid is flexy...outside of this fact, set up correctly the sid should not compress to the point of enhanching the chance of you endoing. I weigh 140 and set the positive and negative chamber with 90 PSI. This makes for a very stiff and supple ride. I'm hellbent to compress the fork more than an inch. Set the positive chambers stiff and match the negative with the same PSI.
-Jerry |
| re: Attn rigid riders...what's your secret? | Farmer John
Mar 28, 2003 3:19 AM | | BIG-a$$ed Ritchey Truegrips*. Those old Kraton rubber grips (not the foam WCS things that pose as grips....YUCK) that most everyone has forgotten about. I use them on any bike I have not equipped with grip shift. they're not too squishy, they're not too firm.
It's a mommabear situation, they are just right. I mate them to a Ritchey* Pro Rizzer bar and use a technique eluded to above...Just stay loose and let the bike float underneath you. Centrifical force is a wonderfull thing. Set your wheels in motion and they want to stay that way. Only input enough data to remain on your chosen course, let them do the rest of the work.
*Ritchey design is a proud sponsor of Farmer John and the Cannondale Midwest Race Team for the 2003 season. I"m a bit biased. check out our growing website: http://racecannondale.com/cmrindex2/cmrindex2.htm |
| couple of thoughts | Single Speed Outlaw
Mar 28, 2003 3:58 AM | | 1. Standard Oury grips -should have more cush because they don't have the hard plastic core for the lock-on. Made a big diff. when I switched from the ODI lock-ons.
2. Big front tire. I think you've got that covered, but you might want to try the Panaracer 2.5 Mega blaster
3. Time in the saddle. The more you ride, the stronger you get and you wouldn't have this problem. Seriously. I speak from experience.
4. Set up. Bars around saddle height and a stem that's short enough that all of your pressure is not on your hands when seated.
5. Make sure those bars have enough sweep back.
Considering your current set up, I think #3, and #4 are going to make the biggest difference.
You hitting trail maint. on Sun. at Avalon? |
| couple of thoughts | Drevil
Mar 28, 2003 1:10 PM | | Thanks SSO.
I've always used Ourys exclusively, but then they started to slip, so I went out and tried alternatives. When the Oury Lock-ons came out, I snagged a pair, and I thought they'd be the solution. No slipping, but I guess you're right, not as much shock absorption. I'm sure I have another pair of regular Ourys in the garage. I'll try them after I try the skinny grips that a previous poster suggested.
Another tire? Ugggh! I'll just try the Tioga 2.3 DH again and see if that helps.
On Sunday, wifey and I are looking for a house. I'll probably hit the Fred 'Shed tomorrow.
rickyd |
| No secret their just Hard Core... | dogbreath
Mar 28, 2003 4:24 AM | | My .02 cents, I went ridge for about 3 months per I was feeling guilty havin the front squishie and not being the "Purist". Anyway I switched back to a 80mm travel shock now I can decend alot faster, maintain momentum thru the rough, don't get beatup nearly as much, and if I'm losing time on a climb I think I made up for it in the other areas. So run what works for ya.. |
| agreed, don't give in to peer pressure (and other notes for Drev | jh_on_the_cape
Mar 28, 2003 6:26 AM | | My bianchi came with a rigid fork and I ran it for a while. My back hurt and I just felt like hell after a ride. In a bad way. Then I put on a 98 Z.2 and it's so much better. Many of the SSers here started rigid to 'keep it real' (Pace carbon!), but one by one we have all put short travel forks on the front. A good fork (not the SID) needs little maintenance and is not too tough to set up, I just twiddle the knobs once in a while so I can feel all techy. Don't give in to the SS fashionistas. Just like the others said, guys that run rigid tend to be in great shape, really strong, and have incredible technique.
Sounds like neither of us are really at that level! I remember you saying once, "I do one sit-up a day, when I get out of bed".
There are killer deals on marathons and other high end forks. Try that.
Ricky, if you want to make a trip up to Cape Cod, I would love to return the favor of hosting a ride. We just bought a house and have a guest loft above the garage, outdoor shower (and indoor!), and an awesome swimming pond. It's less than 3 mile ride to a trailhead with about 50 miles of awesome singletrack (Otis). Shoot me an email if you ever find yourself up here. And I can even loan you some shorts! (dig on SSO!) Joe (SSO Joe, that is), the offer is open to you, of course, as well. I saw my pic on the SSO webpage riding in the snow. Those homebrews were great!
OK, back to work.
JH out. |
| I'm not "purist" or "hard-core" by any means... | Drevil
Mar 28, 2003 1:12 PM | | ...I just like the way the rigid fork feels on everything except fast, rocky trails. I guess I'll just have to decide if I want to ride those kind of trails more often, and if I want relief. For now I'll try what some others have suggested, without going to the shock (yet). |
| The faster you go, the smoother it gets. (nm) | fixeyfreeride
Mar 28, 2003 4:34 AM | | |
| re: Attn rigid riders...what's your secret? | wertico
Mar 28, 2003 4:49 AM | | Don't let the "crazy" full rigid riders warp Your mind! I am using a fox float fork and without that I would not be able to ride, I am 40 and regularly whip the snot out of guys half My age, with gears. All this, "crappy bike, full rigid" is fine but hey, it is My body that hurts, not the people that I am trying to impress. |
| Get on your bike and ride, quit hangin with that other crowd... | Allroy
Mar 28, 2003 6:12 AM | |  |
| Best advice!.nm | steelbike
Mar 28, 2003 9:02 AM | | |
| re: Attn rigid riders...what's your secret? | Singularity
Mar 28, 2003 6:26 AM | | Drevil,
I'm currently running a 2.5 Weirwolf race up front too, but my pressure is way lower. I run about 18 or so psi in front. This makes a huge, amazing difference! With a big tire and really low pressures like this the front doesn't bounce around at all and the comfort is excellent. My hands, wrists & upper body never get beat up. If I put 30 psi in my tire it would feel like a rock and probably hammer the hell out of me.
BTW, I weigh about 142 pounds and have always been really easy on equipment, with a light, smooth riding style. It's rocky & technical here in northwest NJ. If you weigh more or have a different riding style you'd have to adjust for it. |
| pick a line and groove | bn
Mar 28, 2003 6:43 AM | | "soft" hands help |
| Raise the handlebars, lower your seat about 1/2" throw away... | 242 Barham
Mar 28, 2003 7:11 AM | | cheap gloves, make sure elbows are not locked while riding. If they are move saddle forward 1/4" at a time and or rotate bars backwards to shorten cockpit. Make sure bars are not too wide. Yes too wide. I like my arms to be shoulder width, any more and my hands will go to sleep. NO STRAIGHT BARS! Make sure there is some back sweep. Might even try tilting the nose of your saddle up a little to relieve pressure on palms of your hands. RELAX! do not deathgrip the grips. Just enough to remain in control, flex those elbows, look down the trail, and pick the smoothest line.
Wade |
| Start with a normal person. Then remove reason, intellect, | Sparty
Mar 28, 2003 7:23 AM | | ...common sense, fashion independence, and any desire to be comfortable while riding.
:D
--Sparty
P.S. Hey Drevil, the Fox is THE fork. Mine is a Vanilla -- LOVE IT! |
| lemminglike behavior from "core" riders | gonzostrike
Mar 28, 2003 11:01 AM | | oh, the perils of conformist Nonconformity!
what? not a 2:1 ratio?
what? a suspension fork?
what? a riser bar?
what? V-brakes? Disc brakes?
what? quick release?
what? a frame that's not heavy gauge steel?
geez, Sparty -- you must be a Communist!
[rigid bike = inflexible intellect] |
| lemminglike behavior from "core" riders | Singularity
Mar 28, 2003 11:49 AM | | Umm, someone just asked for advice here. Lemminglike? rigid bike = inflexible intellect???
Shirley you can't be serious. |
| why so pissy today bro? -nm | Hollywood
Mar 28, 2003 12:05 PM | | |
| Whooooa...is this Passion? nm | eelpie
Mar 28, 2003 2:09 PM | | nm |
| Problems at home? | Shameonu
Mar 29, 2003 12:16 AM | | Hard to believe this is just about fork preference.
Bret |
| three inches of gazzi love... | redhaze
Mar 28, 2003 7:40 AM | | IF you wish to continue to ride rigid over really rocky stuff, stop whining with the weight weenies and get as big of a tire as can fit in your fork. I run a 3" Gazzaloddi in a dimension rigid disc fork at less than 20psi. low pressure big d/h tire is the key. these things have super tuff casings that don't get pinch flats and they really grip. also, the more you ride it at the low pressures, the more supple it gets. plus, this huge tire has a larger diameter, my gazzi is 28.5" in diameter, almost the same as a 29er but with huge tire volume.
all that being said, smooth loose griped flow is also key. and one way to help do that is brake lever setup. yes, levers should be angled to make your d/h wrist position straight with your arms AND set the handles so you only need your index finger to actuate the end of the lever. that means move the levers way inboard. this allows you to have more fingers on the handlebars instead of on the brake lever. works best with easy pull hydro or avid disc brakes. This is a Sparticus tip that I learned last year.
also, those fox forks are sweet too. run what ya want!
bob
http://red-haze.com |
| re: Attn rigid riders...what's your secret? | kilgoreSS
Mar 28, 2003 8:33 AM | | I am thinking of trying the Easton MG60 Mag Stem with the Easton EC70 carbon bars. Might help. Don't know, yet. :) |
| re: Attn rigid riders...what's your secret? | Giantxc
Mar 28, 2003 8:48 AM | | IMHO skip the Easton MG60. I bought a used one a year ago to try it out and with in a month it began corroding and the rubber end piece broke off. A lot of reviewers on this site seem to have had the same problem. It's a nice piece of equipment but the quality doesn't seem to be there. I'm just glad I didn't pay full price. |
| Tioga DH 2.3 @ 24psi | Fast Eddy
Mar 28, 2003 9:55 AM | | About half the weight of the redhaze solution, and more than half the cush. My hands still get tired though. I think it's more from the brakes than the lack of suspension though. I just upgraded to a Kelly rigid disc fork and an avid 185mm brake. I'll let you know if it helps. First ride on it tomorrow.
I'd also like to try out an Easton carbon DH bar.
I gotta admit though that a 3" tire would be sweet. |
| Easton carbon DH bar?????? | xrmattaz
Mar 28, 2003 11:56 AM | | I've been running it about 3 weeks now....boy is it EVER
stiff! Seems to be much more so than the aluminium Azonic
I had on there...MUCH. I notice no flex whatsoever.
Just my observations, but I'm a 6'4" 240pounder. |
| Either you like it or you don't. | Paul B
Mar 28, 2003 12:04 PM | | I'm running my Lobster fully rigid, and I love it except that I can't descend very fast. But that's my limitation, not the bike's. We have a couple guys here who run rigid and place well in downhill races (Alex Hardt for example). Those guys have a huge amount of skill and fluidity on the bike. They're also pretty small people, which may make a difference. I'm 215#, which is a lot of lard for my hands to support on the ruff stuff.
For most racing (which isn't much -- just a couple endurance events each year) I like the rigid bike just fine. Saving energy on the climbs is, for me, better than saving energy on the descents.
If/when I build a more purebred racing SS, I'll probably build it around that new Fox 80 mm fork that's supposted to lock out rider-induce bob but still respond to trail-induced movement. The F80X I think. That, to me, would be the best of both worlds.
p. |
| Dedicated rigid rider here ... | GlowBoy
Mar 28, 2003 12:47 PM | | Big fat tire at low pressure makes a huge difference. I've been running a Hutchinson Alligator 2.0 or Conti Survival 2.3 up front at 28-32 psi because that's all my old bike had room for ... but even that is way cushier than the 1.9-ish tires I used to run at 40 psi. My new bike has room for at least a 2.6 Gazzi and maybe a 3.0. This summer I plan on experimenting with the Tioga 2.3 DH I just picked up for $10 on eBay, a Weirwolf Race and possibly even a Gazzi if can come up with the cash.
Handlebars help a lot too. Drops are amazingly compliant off-road, as I've learned from my 'crosser, and my future 29" bike will probably have them. I know Shiggy really likes his WTB drops because the forces encountered while riding downhill push his hands deeper into the bars and as the terrain gets rougher his grip automatically gets more secure. Overall, you want a handlebar position that allows you to keep a solid, bombproof grip on the bars without having to grip it too tightly, because that will just fatigue your hands and hurt your wrists.
What works for some may not work for others, so keep experimenting, but here's what works for me. I run 24+" flat bars currently and I think it makes a big difference in comfort and control over the 22 1/2" bars I used to use. I experimented for a while with bars that had a pronounced sweep (10-15 degrees) and finally decided that I did not like it - it bent my wrists at an angle that caused discomfort on downhills - and went back to flatter bars. I also do what red-haze suggests, moving the brake levers a bit inboard (easier with wide bars anyway) so you can fingertip the levers and keep more fingers on the bars. And I run the Yeti Hardcore grips because I find them really cushy, and that helps too.
And like others said, technique is huge. Flow over and around stuff as much as you can.
Still, when it's all said and done, for me there's no avoiding the fact that on fast rocky descents a rigid bike is going to beat up your hands and rattle your teeth. It just is. I don't mind because I don't do that kind of riding all the time. If I did, I would probably find that the benefits of suspension outweighed the drawbacks, and I would be running a suspension fork. Gotta do what works for you. |
| Thanks Glowbee... | Drevil
Mar 28, 2003 1:17 PM | | ...you're right, it's all about priorities. I do enjoy riding in areas that have the rocky fast trails, but I don't ride them that much. I may be hitting them more often now that the snow is totally gone. But for most of my riding, I find that riding with a shock is absolutely unnecessary. |
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