|   Q regarding race ethics/official NORBA protest (complicated) | ignazjr
Sep 10, 2001 12:05 PM | | So here goes. The amateur races for the Vail Worlds were last weekend in Beaver Creek. It was a pretty important race for me and I came into it in strong form. Pretty fun course, good competition, etc.
I raced Senior Expert 19-29 and finished 4th overall, 2nd American. The #1 and #2 finishers were here from Belgium to race at Worlds U23 next weekend. I think both guys were like 19 or so. In the US a "junior" is under 19 but not in Europe. Officially, in Europe, racers cannot officially race as "Professional" until the age of 23, hence the U23 designation. Technically then, these U23 Belgian racers CAN race as 19-29 experts in the States because they don't have US domestic licenses. OK no problem so far, even though these 2 Belgians were sandbagging. All the U23 Americans hold pro licenses.
Here's where it gets complicated. The 1st place guy (well, 1st American) and myself sort of protested the sandbagging to the official at the race. Technically, due to reasons explained above, the official allowed the scores to stand and left the venue 1/2 hour prior to awards so they were no longer available for discussion.
Here's the rub: Just 1 weekend prior, this same duo raced at Keystone as Pros and got smoked. We talked to their coach after the Beaver Creek race. He downgraded them because it would be good for their psyche. Whassupwidat?! It makes sense to me that they should treat the international license like domestic 1st time racing, i.e. I can sign up for expert even if it is my first race. Once I do that, however, I need to submit in writing to NORBA if I want to downgrade. I can't just race Sport the next weekend. In that regard, international cyclists have more options with NORBA than US cyclists? Is that right? I know I'm rambling, but does this make sense?
Do I have a right to be pissed (I am), or should I just deal?
thanks, igjr |
| As far as I know....I'm clueless. | RedAscent
Sep 10, 2001 12:15 PM | | As I read the rules, under NORBA, any downgrade in class MUST be NORBA approved. But, these guys don't have NORBA licenses, so they are racing under UCI guidelines, which I don't know all that well, not being a UCI license holder (I do hold a NORBA license). It is possible they did the Keystone race out of category - that is, since they are UCI U23 and not pros, they raced in the Pro category - allowed since they are racing above category and not below. It's kinda fuzzy because of the differences between NORBA and UCI regs. Also, did you know that the NORBA regs on age are only "recommendations" to promoters? NORBA states that Master's starts at age 30 now, which is in line with UCI regs, but race promoters don't have to follow those guidelines - if they want Master's to start at age 35 for their own race, so be it.
IMHO - NORBA should pattern after UCI, or not allow non-license holders to race in non-UCI events. Period.
Phil |
| If this is really important to you... | Shiva
Sep 10, 2001 12:16 PM | | Then you need to reconsider why you ride.
Shiva |
| it is important | igjr
Sep 10, 2001 12:52 PM | | I hope that wasn't an attack on racing. Ask any racer. Do you race to finish mid pack, or do you want to win? Isn't that what racing is about? As per your question, I RIDE for fun. I RACE because I am competitive. I strive to be the absolute best I can, and racing is a good outlet for that. I don't know your story and I'm not going to second guess it.
The issue is important to me, and here is why. It seems that you are stressing complacency. If I follow your logic, we all should be happy with all the curves that are thrown our way that are neither right, nor fair. I don't feel that way. If issues don't get pushed, they don't get changed. The only way to change or reform unclear laws or guidelines is to challenge them. This was a huge headache for myself and 2 other Americans yesterday. I should hope that we can get things changed so it doesn't happen to others in the future.
I hope you are tolerant enough to realize that everyone has a different motivation and that it may be different from your own. |
| "stressing complacency"? | Shiva
Sep 10, 2001 1:06 PM | | Wow, you can read between the lines like nobody's business!
20 years from now you won't even remember this incident. At least for your sake I hope you won't.
Face it, those guys rode their bikes faster than you did that day, no matter what label NORBA stuck on them.
Shiva (Will this incident affect the temperature of my hot tub?) |
| "stressing complacency"? | ignazjr
Sep 10, 2001 1:26 PM | | funny. I wasn't reading between the lines, I was just reasoning using the logic that you had set forth.
You are correct. They rode their bikes faster. I won't give a shit in 20 years or in 2 years. It will all be forgotten. I've kissed the silver medal goodbye. You seem to have missed my point, though. As a few have pointed out, this is a UCI/NORBA issue, which you seem to have overlooked. There are discrepencies between the two. I hope that, by challenging the existing bylaws, we can bring them more in line with one another so we can eliminate this from happening in the future.
Surely no hard feelings. Soon, we will have forgotten about one another as well, eh? |
| Certainly no hard feelings on my part. | Shiva
Sep 10, 2001 1:38 PM | | And you are 100% correct about the age/class UCI/NORBA thing. You certainly have the right to take this issue up with NORBA.
Wanna buy a box of dusty old BMX trophies? I think they're still in my parents attic. { ;^)
Shiva (Pastes a gold star on Ignaz' forehead) |
| So which should it be? | Ken in KC
Sep 10, 2001 2:05 PM | | Should UCI change to follow NORBA guidelines or should NORBA change to follow the UCI guidelines?
They legally entered a NORBA race. You could enter a UCI race just the same, if you were to travel to Europe. Your standing with NORBA wouldn't matter.
You got beat by faster riders that were legally entered in your class....
...or you took the podium in a race with European pros.
Ken "trying to provide a little perspective" in KC |
| I liked this | ignazjr
Sep 10, 2001 2:26 PM | | You know, for the sake of uniformity, NORBA should change to be more compatible with UCI like they've done with the Masters designation.
Thanks for the perspective, that's why I was here.
Dave (who used to race at Landahl when the trails at the park were newly cut, but I'm not Dave of Dave's Maze) |
| If I were a racer ... | NewMex
Sep 10, 2001 1:45 PM | | which I am not, I could see a very good reason why this would be important, Sponsorship. If I were to take and base my livelihood on racing and I was going to a sponsor I would much rather have a second place finish on my resume than a fourth place.
Perhaps you should consider that people ride for a variety of reasons. |
| That sucks | kristian
Sep 10, 2001 12:22 PM | | What they did would not be fair in a NORBA comp, but Vail is a UCI event if I understand correctly. They both squeeked by on a technicality that isn't fair to you, but it sounds like it's fair to the UCI. You know you came in second; we know you came in second; everyone at the race (who knows your story) knows you came in second. Unfortunately, I guess that's going to have to be enough for you...
BTW, Congrats! Either Fourth or Second Expert in a World Cup Finalie is pretty impressive by my book! |
| You're right to be pissed. Just deal. | Chip (nm)
Sep 10, 2001 12:45 PM | | |
| Problem solved... | D.F.L.
Sep 10, 2001 1:01 PM | | Call Steven. I think this may fall under "alternative dispute resolution."
Racing isn't fair. Even when the rules are followed, inevitably someone is born with bigger lungs than you. |
| In a sense, it happens all the time... | PT
Sep 10, 2001 2:17 PM | | Something similar happens in road racing all the time -- at least it seems so in principal. In the Rockie at least, many top road riders are veterans/masters. One week, they ride and win the Pro/1/2 category, the next week they ride vets/masters and work over the regular joes. The rules allow this, but I'm not so sure it's so good for racing in general. The practice doesn't lend itself to consistantly high quality Pro/1/2 fields and it is a little abusive to the mortals in the vet/master ranks (although they do very little complaining).
I comiserate, but I think you should just deal with it. With all of the crap going down with USA cycling, sorting out the rules about catergories with the UCI won't be high on their list. And I think "Shiva" is just blowing smoke -- he has no basis for understanding the situation. Folks ride for all sorts of reasons, and copping a superior attitude doesn't help anyone. |
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