|   Mechanical vs. hydraulic disc brakes . . . | Socrates
Nov 27, 2001 7:42 AM | | What are the advantages/disadvantages of mechanical vs. hydraulic disc brakes? I am thinking of building up a Trek Fuel 100 for XC riding only (no killer freeriding). Thanks for your input. |
| I love Hayes, but... | Doc
Nov 27, 2001 7:50 AM | | It's hard to justify the cost of a full hydrolic hayes set up when there are such good alternatives out there.
Avid makes a great brake for about $80 a wheel. That's cheaper than some V-brake set ups!
According to people who know, the avid mechanical comes closest to the feel and power of the hydrolic hayes better than any other mechanical, and some hydrolics.
If I build another bike from scratch it'll have Avid's. |
| re: Mechanical vs. hydraulic disc brakes . . . | Phillip
Nov 27, 2001 7:56 AM | | Check out the current Bicycling magazine. They did a test on
about 20 disc brake systems including mechanical and hydraulic.
Avid mechanical was rated #1. |
| Sorry, wrong! | Doc
Nov 27, 2001 8:51 AM | | The Avid was rated as the best Value and best Mechanical.
Hayes Hydrolic was rated as Best Overall
Hope's Enduro 4 was rated as Best Hydrolic (I'd have to disagree with this one...) |
| funny cause | Jm
Nov 27, 2001 9:59 AM | | my hayes-running friends always like my hopes more than theirs when they try them
DOH! |
| The feel is great and the power is good on Avids... | kristian
Nov 27, 2001 8:05 AM | | ...the only thing I can think of is that you are going to have the same problems with cable stretch and cable stiction that you would with a vee brake so you are theoretically going to have to replace your cables and housing every year to keep the feeling perfect. With hydraulics, the only thing you will ever have to do is replace the pads (again this is theoretical I've know a few people who have to re-bleed their Hayes on a yearly basis or so--luckily I've never had that problem though)
I've never seen the inside of an Avid caliper but the other thing I would question is how sealed it is from the elements. Any moving part that can collect dust and mud is eventually going to get sloppy. Although, this might take years to be noticable.
If cost is something that you are worried about, you can get a set of Hayes (caliper, line and lever) for $139 at wheelworld.com. |
| Avid User | Steve-O
Nov 27, 2001 8:07 AM | | I have the Avid Mechanicals and have been very happy with them... I'm into keeping things simple on the bike and wasn't interested in bleeding brake lines and trying to figure out what fluid to use.
For general XC the Avids are fine. The give you much more stopping power and won't fade after stream crossings like a traditional V brake. My only problem with the brakes was self induced. I left 2-3 inches of extra brake cable when I first installed the Avids (just like you would with a V brake). While riding through some brush a twig pushed the excess cable into my rotor. The bike ground to a halt and the extra cable was sheared off between the rotor and the brake pads. Now I trim the excess cable a little shorter to prevent this freak accident from reoccurring. |
| The only reason I have Hayes Hydros | JRinCA
Nov 27, 2001 8:09 AM | | Is because I got a killer deal of a $175 for both wheels. I don't think the guy works for specialized anymore...! |
| Avids here.... | troy
Nov 27, 2001 8:14 AM | | and I'm extremely happy with them. As stated above, I'm also into simplicity on the bike. The avids were easy to install and easy to set up. Adjustment is also very easy with the dial on either side of the caliper.
I haven't tried hydros but Hayes seems the way to go if that's your thing. If I had to do it over again I would still go with the Avids. |
| When it came to spending my money, I went for Avids | Rev Bubba
Nov 27, 2001 8:33 AM | | Less expensive although the Magura Marta are about the same price now.
Easier to adjust with those two knobs I can get at without any tools.
Plenty of stopping power for me.
No worries about leaking hydraulics or bleeding brakes although I have to honestly say my Magura HS33 rims have never required any maintenance.
The mechanic who does the heavy work on my bike recommended them. |
| Mech vs Hydraulic | shabadu
Nov 27, 2001 8:48 AM | | For your purposes I'd probably suggest the avids, unless you are riding in really sloppy conditions where grit and grime can get into the caliper and housing...like Kristian said.
I haven't ridden the avids for any extended off road rides, but from parking lot tests and watching Avid's 225lb test monkey JD ride the crap out of them and track stand in the midst of a steep, rather extended behind the seat descent I'm sold on them.
We actually saw quite a few hydraulic disk brakes come through the shop I worked at...mostly for bleeding and routine pad changes. A lot of the time, the bleeds were for brakes that were constantly in need of them due to some mysterious leak somewhere in the system...pretty dang frustrating for us and the customer. |
| Hayes Hydros rock!!! | TNJED®
Nov 27, 2001 8:49 AM | | Actaully, I can't compare them to anything mechanical, so I can't say they are better or worse.
They came on the bike I purchased the beginning of this summer (Specialized Enduro FSR). First couple rides, I loved them. Then they started to and rub and squeal all the time. I met a guy in the woods, that heard me coming from a mile away, and he gave me a whole collection of tips and tricks to get my brakes up to par. When I got home, I immediately tore into my brakes, and have absolutely loved them ever since. No rubbing, no squealing, and one finger braking no matter how desperate the situation.
Good Luck!!! |
| Hayes Hydros rock!!! | 006_007
Nov 27, 2001 8:57 AM | | you mention tips for stopping the squealing etc. I have the same thing happening (I even have the same year enduro FSR, but it is not the bike right....) and have been having a huge difficult time getting them to shut up for extended periods of time. Any tips/advice is always welcome......
Thanks! |
| First thing to try.... | TNJED®
Nov 27, 2001 9:08 AM | | Get some really fine sand paper, and sand the rotors to get all the build up off. The thing that finally fixed it for me was adjusting and readjusting the caliper assembly. There are two screws that mount the caliper to the fork/frame. If you loosen the two screws, you can slightly move the calipers side to side until the pads are making NO contact with the rotor. I used a flashlight, facing towards me, from the other side of the caliper to help see the gap, because it is a very narrow gap. Good luck, and hopefully that'll work for you. How do you like the Enduro? |
| easier way to center the rotor around the pads | narlus
Nov 27, 2001 9:44 AM | | loosen the two bolts you mentioned, then pull the lever hard, tighten the bolts, release the lever. voila, perfectly centered pads (assuming that your rotor is not warped).
this is the beauty of hayes, rather than f*cking around trial and error w/ shims a la hope... |
| No shit??!! Where the hell were you... | TNJED®
Nov 27, 2001 10:14 AM | | 5 months ago when I spent 20 minutes every ride tweeking my brakes. Damn I wish I thought of that! |
| The tip is on Hayes website. | JRinCA
Nov 27, 2001 10:39 AM | | I printed the whole darned pdf user's guide. |
| First thing to try.... | 006_007
Nov 27, 2001 10:21 AM | | I have wiped the rotors down with alcohol, but have not attempted to sand em. I will give it a try for this weekend.
I have been enjoying the Enduro very much. I puchased it a couple of days after christmas (late present to myself!). the biggest complaint I had about it was the seatpost and the seat. But those are minor details.
Have you had any issues with the fox shock? (assuming you have the expert / pro) I have had to send my float R in for 2 warranty repairs. |
| That funny you mention the shock.... | TNJED®
Nov 27, 2001 10:31 AM | | What kind of riding do you do? It's funny because I rode the other day, and I thought the shock felt noticeably softer. I will definitely check the pressure when I get home. How did you know your's were broken? Did they snap or just lose air.
I switched out the seat before it left the shop, and the post has not been a problem. Next summer I plan on dumping some money into it to try to get it under that 30lb mark. |
| not huge agressive.... | 006_007
Nov 27, 2001 10:53 AM | | I am not an agressive rider by any means, nor am I particularly large (5'9", 165LBS). I tend to do more x-country than freeride (although I have several riding buddies that are trying to get me to do some more evil stuff)
The first time I was getting a funny wear mark on the piston (wore right through the anodizing)after @ 6 months of riding so I sent it in. While it was away I used a friends vanilla r for a while (okay, 4 months). When I finally switched back to the float, there was all , sorts of "squishy" noises after 15 minutes of riding and the rebound adjustment was shot all to hell. Sent that back was just returned to me and it seems to have a whole new shock body on it. Do not know what is up, but I will try it out tonight!
It never lost air (I usually run @ 155 - 170PSI). I figured I just had a bad shock.
I will say that the warranty service was very fast (even up here in Canada) |
| ....Evil laugh in the distance.... NM | CraigH
Nov 27, 2001 5:48 PM | | nm |
| Mechanical vs. hydraulic disc brakes . . . | HT
Nov 27, 2001 9:09 AM | | I will have Vee brakes for a change...lighter,cheaper, easy and cheap to maintain and stop the bike as well !
HTmaniac |
| adding to the avid disc praises... | Nonny
Nov 27, 2001 9:12 AM | | built up my Voodoo with the Avid mech discs last spring and have been very happy with them from the first ride.
Easy install/set-up (simpler than vee's, way easier than any hydraulic system i've ever worked on), minimal maintenance (turn the pad adjusters an extra click in every month or so, that's all), excellent power AND modulation (single finger braking is a wonderful thing). In either muddy or dry conditions (or anything in between) i have never been let down by these brakes, and with full length cable housing i have found that the cables stay clean and dirt/grit/grime/gunk free. Will probably replace the cables and housing annually just to be safe but that's hardly a major expense or effort to go thru so i don't see it as an issue. Also the ability to use any v brake levers with the Avids is a nice bonus, stick with the levers that you like and that work best for you rather than being stuck with whatever the hydraulic system you may choose comes with.
If you are concerned about weight then the Avids are not going to be the lightest option, several hydraulic disc systems are somewhat lighter (Formula B4, Magura Marta, etc...) which may be a factor to consider if you are looking to build a lightweight XC race bike, but if you just want a simple, dependable, highly capable, trouble-free brake system then the Avid mech's may be the choice for you.
Non. (MCM#089, NADS#089) |
| Nads89 ??? | Hollis
Nov 27, 2001 9:28 AM | | Magura Cult I know, but what is a Nads member? |
| NADS = Nifty Avid Disc Society... | Nonny
Nov 27, 2001 10:09 AM | | ...kinda like the MCM's, but focused on the use of Avid's brake broducts instead. More info here. (if the website is working today...)
Non. (Magura's on one bike, Avid discs on the other) |
| This is a no brainer, of course Hayes Hydro's | JT
Nov 27, 2001 9:13 AM | | They might arguably be the best disc brakes out there, but more importantly, parts and service knowledge is vast throughout. |
| Mechanical vs. Hydraulic Opinions | Ken in KC
Nov 27, 2001 9:24 AM | | Socrates,
Having ridden Hayes Hyd., Hayes Mechanical and Avid Mechanical; my opinion in your particular case is:
Avid V-brakes in back and an Avid mechanical in front.
Hayes Hydraulic
The Hayes Hyd. brakes are far superior for stopping power over mechanical and they have no cables that can pull out of the retention bolt. They are heavier and more expensive than mechanical brakes.
Hayes Mechanical
Better stopping power than V-brakes, but heavier and more expensive.
Avid Mechanical
See Hayes.
Conclusion
You are building a bike with a lightweight race frame, therefor you are at least marginally concerned with weight. You aren't going to fully utilize disc brakes due to your riding style and intended use for the bike.
Why suffer the added weight of disc brakes when V-brakes are lighter and (sometimes) less expensive?
Ken |
| Mechanical vs. Hydraulic Opinions- Shimano? | EricP
Nov 27, 2001 9:40 AM | | Ken,
What have you heard about the Shimano Deore Mech Disc? I know they are fairly inexpensive ($44.00). I am building a XC bike around a tight budget. I already have the Access frame from Supergo, and a great set of Mavic 317 disc wheels from Ebay.
Eric |
| I can't say... | Ken in KC
Nov 27, 2001 11:00 AM | | I've never tried Shimano discs. If I were a betting man, I would say go for it. Shimano makes great stuff.
It sounds like you have a pretty sweet set up. I would go for it. Have you checked the reviews here for other riders opinions of the Shimano discs?
Ken |
| I don't agree | Jm
Nov 27, 2001 11:52 AM | | first of all the avid mechanicals I have used were far better than the hayes mechanicals. The difference is that to produce good power with the hayes I felt like i needed two fingers, or excessive pulling of the lever, the avids on the other hand had an extremely positive feel at the lever, and actually felt kind of like a magura gustav to me in terms of modulation, in other words the modulation was very good. I also tried 6" hayes hyraulics and i did not think they were great, I am too use to the modulation of my hopes to quickly adapt to the "on off" stype of the hayes, however I would choose the Avid mechanicals over the 6" hayes any day, because they seemed to have as much power, but i could stop and control myself much better with them, and that is what it is really all about.
As for what you said about the hayes weight and the lines, I think hayes weigh something like 420 grams each, complete, and the avids weigh more like 500 grams with a resonable lever, the avid is NOT a lightweight disc brake, the hayes on the other hand is relatively light for a disc brake, the other issue about a "cable pulling out" on the mechanicals, correct me if I am wrong, but when is the last time a cable pulled out of your V brakes? If we are going to say that the cable-retention thing is a "negative" you might as well mention the possibility of hydro lines getting torn, which as we all know is VERY small.
My point, Avid makes a real good brake, as good as some hyraulics in my opinion. The Hayes mechanical did not impress me at all. The hayes(and other lighter hydros in general) is a better choice to save weight.
And lastly, I agree with your statement about V brakes, I have avids on my hardtail and I can modulate(control) them just fine with one finger, and that is all I need for that bike. |
| I agree.... | Ken in KC
Nov 27, 2001 12:26 PM | | For this particular case, it seems like he wants disc brakes for the sake of having disc brakes. Should he decide to go with mechanical brakes, he would most likely be happy with either Hayes or Avid. I agree that Avid is a better brake.
Since I'm not really concerned about weight, but more about durability, I can't comment on the weight difference between the Avid and Hayes mechanical brakes. I thought that the hydraulic brakes were heavier than the mechanical brakes. Was I incorrect? I currently ride Hayes mechanical and Hayes hyd. on two different bikes. If I had the choice, I would run Avids over the Hayes mechanicals. I got a good deal on the Hayes and they came out considerably cheaper than the Avids.
As far as pulling out the brake cable goes: I was speaking from personal experience. Then again, I'm not a very smooth rider. I have pulled out the cable from mechanical discs. I have torn and twisted a hydraulic cable as well. The hyd. brakes still functioned. The mech. brake did not.
I think bikes that are built today are more prone to having standard brake cables rip or tear out opposed to bikes built before disc brakes. It's only my theory, and I'll let you know up front that I have no proof either way. Here is my reasoning:
Bikes that were built before Hyd. brakes tended to hide the brake stays underneath the top tube or directly on top of the top tube. The cable would require a little more bending when you did your routing, but the cable was also protected by the diameter of the top tube.
Bikes built after Hyd. brakes became standard tend to have their brake stays mounted along the outside of the top tube (usually on the non-drive side) to help prevent the hyd. cable from kinking and reducing braking power. This is ok with hyd. cable since it is a sealed system and the housing is extremely durable.
When people use standard cable instead of hyd. cable in the new stays, however, they expose 1.5 -2 feet of brake cable. This exposed cable would have protected by the top tube on older bikes, but is sort of out in the open on newer bikes.
I have an old steel bike with V-brakes that has a couple of dents in the top tube where brake stays would be located on newer bikes. If I had cable exposed on my old steel bike, I would have smashed and frayed the brake cable against the rocks that caused the dents. If these same rocks would have hit hyd. cable, they most likely would not have prevented the brakes from working (assuming that the internal line wasn't severed).
Boy, I seem to be rambling a lot lately. Sorry about the long post. Perhaps I need to find some work to keep me occupied for a while.
Ken |
| i think the "exposed cable" and | Jm
Nov 27, 2001 1:21 PM | | just the fact that they run regular cables as opposed to hydro lines is the real concern, the breaking of lines or whatever is probably secondary to this(from what I can tell). I think what the real issue is, is cables verses hyro-lines, and in those two there are distint distadavantages etc. Cable friction, gunk build up, wear, maybe stretch(at first), these things are probably the kinds of things to think about IMO.
The other thing that got me was the weight, mechanicals are not currenty lighter than the lighter hydraulics, I can't speak directly for the Hayes Mech, as I only tested it-i did not really look up its numbers, but I doub't it is significantly lighter than the avid. The avids though are not lightweight brakes, and Magura Claras, Hope Minis, and Formula B4s are all significantly lighter.
anyhow, if he was just uprading for the sake of upgrading, I say go ahead if money is no option, you only live once! But otherwise, good avid V brakes are excellent. |
| possibility of hydro lines tearing = small? umm... | narlus
Nov 27, 2001 12:32 PM | | maybe my friends and i crash too much, or have too many trees around, but i've personally torn out two magura lines (rim brakes, and the stainless steel crossovers have taken care of that problem) on my trials bike, and killed a rear line on my hope. i've got friends who have similarly killed hayes lines while riding. maybe the stainless braided lines of the shimanos are a lot tougher and more impervious to damage, but i would not quantify the chance of tearing a hydro line to be very small; in fact, it's much greater than damaging a brake cable, in my experience.
and a lot of the v brake/disk argument really depends on where you live. if you ride in muddy or icy conditions, power doesn't really matter if it's applied to a slick rim wall. disks are clearly better for this application. |
| I can't argue with that, but the point was that | Jm
Nov 27, 2001 1:13 PM | | the point was that the cable-rentention argument of cable-acuated brakes was not really much of a viable one, that if you are going to mention cables pulling out, that you might as well mention the hyrdo lines, even though with my experiance my friends nor I have ever ripped a hydro line. |
| Hydraulic for wet/sloppy climates. | Twilight Error®
Nov 27, 2001 9:59 AM | | Cable discs suffer from the same problems that affect cable rim brakes - the cable is exposed to the elements. Avid's Flak and Full Metal Jacket cables, the Gore cables and some of the other knock-off cable sets are a lot better than the unprotected cables of a few years ago, but they still get contaminated with exposure to water, mud, sand and ice. I stopped using cable vee brakes because I ride during the winter and would loose the brakes very early into a ride. My Magura HS24 calipers never failed to work, no matter how much frozen mud built up on them. When I went disc, the cable models hadn't developed well enough to even be an option - not that they would have been anyhow - I'm completely sold on hydraulic brakes.
Now if I can only find reliable hydraulic shifting... |
| Not much of a problem... | shiggy©®
Nov 27, 2001 6:01 PM | | ...I run full housing with my Avid discs. and have not needed to replace or lube the cables in a year of hard use in the wet and muck.
-shiggy NADS #69 |
| I'm impressed, but not enough to switch from hydraulic. (nm) | Twilight Error®
Nov 28, 2001 6:43 AM | | |
| Hydraulics.................. | Mike T.
Nov 27, 2001 10:08 AM | | .... - for the same reason that we go with discs in the first place - impervious to the weather and the lack of need for maintenance. Your discs hydraulics feel the same at Day 1001 as they did on Day 1. |
| Surely---->hayes hydraulic disc | mrsuperlight
Nov 27, 2001 6:00 PM | | 1.5 years later my Hayes Hydraulics feel & perform like new. I've had trouble free operation and surprised to find out from web retailers such as cambria bicycles offer small parts replacements for Hayes brakes. I love how my hydraulics FEEL. I doubt cable actuated brakes will pass the test of time, Hayes or other brands.
P.S. For and additional $60, after market levers (only) are available for Hayes. |
| |
