|   IF/Curtlo/Gunnar - Pluses & minus of each (posted in Tech) | Rev Bubba
Jan 31, 2002 5:39 AM | | More and more I see a custom "steel" hardtail as my next purchase of choice. I say of choice, because, if my I-Drive frame breaks, I will have no choice but to replace it but that is not something I can plan for.
Anyway, of the three builders listed, is one significantly better then the others. I have been told of questionable paint on the Gunnar and maybe the Curtlo and possible geometry issues with Gunnar. No one seems to have anything bad to say about IF except the added cost over the other two.
So, what is your experience with each? This is a long term goal for me. Maybe two to three years down the line. I even have my wife involved by asking her to come up with a custom paint job. (she is very artistic).
I also have been told to look at Oswald but don't know anything about this company.
This is to be the "ultimate" bike for me. One I hope will last many, many years. Full XTR, King headset, etc. Kind of a no holds barred purchase. Yes, I have and will consider titanium but still feel very drawn to steel.
Thanks. |
| So will this be.... | fred³
Jan 31, 2002 5:47 AM | | a hardtail?
fred3 |
| Absolutely. Hardtails are timeless but FS changes too often | Rev Bubba
Jan 31, 2002 5:53 AM | | As technology moves on, FS changes with it. This is not a bad thing but I see no reason to invest in an expensive FS that will be outdated in a few years.
Let's face it, the geometry of a hardtail is pretty much set. The human body is not evolving at any great rate and what works today will work just as well in ten years. Because of this, I can see making a long term committment. Also, I've been back on on aluminum hardtail for the past few rides and find I miss the light feel.
As for the FS, if I do have to change frame, the Loco is most likely the way I would go.
I want one of each. With different tires, the HT can double as a road bike as mine does now. Maybe not the most effecient, but not all that bad if not racing and hardtails make very nice city bikes. |
| Seven makes a nice looking steel bike . nm | fred³
Jan 31, 2002 6:12 AM | | |
| Agreed. | Doc
Jan 31, 2002 6:59 AM | | The seven sola is a sweet ride. I'd make mine a rigid single speed though- with disc's.
That'd just about be the perfect bike, UST wheels- Hayes brakes, no gears.... mmmmmmm.....
butter baby! |
| Gunnar is as close as you'll come to a custom for..... | Chip
Jan 31, 2002 5:52 AM | | the $650 or so the base frame starts at. I think they also do custom sizing too. Only geometry problems I've heard of is a long top tube.
They're made by Waterford Bicycles in Waterford, WI.
Have you looked at the Waterford 2400 as another option? Well, upon closer look at the Waterford website they no longer have a mountain frame. At any rate the Gunnar is a great buy. Good luck and do the research! |
| take a look at Steelman | The Weasel
Jan 31, 2002 6:07 AM | | When I was looking at steel bikes, this name was mentioned several times. The Manzanita gets great reviews and the paint jobs are also quality. I had read (again-only read) about some soft paint issues on IF's. I emailed IF asking them to clarify some reviewers comments, but never heard back. Strange given the wonderful comments people have posted about their customer service. Steelman's are only a bit cheaper. depending on the options you choose. |
| Want ultimate? | celly
Jan 31, 2002 6:22 AM | | DeKerf makes sweet steel. I almost bought their flagship HT back in '01 just before I went FS. Sweet rides. Skogan has one and likes it a LOT. From what I've seen, DeKerf owners are very loyal. Made in Vancouver. Says it all. |
| p.s. | celly
Jan 31, 2002 6:23 AM | | The Canuck buck is at an all time low against the Yanqui Greenback. Would be a great time to buy "made in Canada". |
| Ultimate is a very subjective term at best | Rev Bubba
Jan 31, 2002 7:04 AM | | I'm just starting my research so I may not even be able to define "ultimate" in my terms yet. Certainly a bike that suits my riding style (conservative) and terrain (eastern technical woods). A great downhill or freeride bike would not be the ultimate for me. It might for many others. Cross country I guess.
Most important of all will be fit. A combination of standover and reach and all the other angles. Comfort, components, paint, performance, weight, etc. etc. The "ultimate" bike for me will have to be more then the sum of its parts. There definetly will be that intangible something that you can not put your finger on but you know is there.
Maybe its the "holy grail" of bikers and something we can always strive for but never quite achieve. I don't think one bike can do it all which is why I have no intention of replacing my full suspension with a hardtail. I want to improve upon the aluminum framed hardtail I now ride. It is a step up from my last hardtail but not "there" yet.
Guess I didn't answer your question, did I?
Oh, yeah, I have nothing against Canadian bikes if I find one that fits my needs. |
| Check them out nonetheless..... | celly
Jan 31, 2002 7:17 AM | | Chris DeKerf was a master welder for Rocky Mountain for many years before he bailed to do his own thing. I'm fairly certain they'll do custom work as well. He has a lot of nice touches that are unique to his company. The "wishbone" rear is a trademark. His welds are gorgeous and the bikes have a great feel to them I'm told. You're a big guy are you not? Careful what kind of steel bike you go with. I remember DR1 getting himself a Kona Hot and hating it afterwards because it was too noodly under his weight. Sold it to Big Dave and he loved it. Chris ended up going with a small custom builder in Iowa I believe and he built a frame more suited to Chris' Clyde status. I forget the name of the builder now, but his frames are very sweet. Ask Mike T about "True North" as well. He had one before he got is Seven and was quite happy with it.
You've got a long time horizon and the decision won't be easy. Lots of great stuff out there. |
| Tom Teesdale.. | 2melow
Jan 31, 2002 3:28 PM | | Was the frame DR1 had made by him. Tom makes some really nice rigid forks as well.. |
| That's the one. | celly
Jan 31, 2002 3:31 PM | | He was pretty happy with that hardtail. |
| IF is great... | kristian
Jan 31, 2002 6:27 AM | | ...but wouldn't you be happier getting a fully custom job--possibly even from a local builder who will walk you through the whole process? What if the local job cost even less than a stock IF? That's the situation I found myself in. I had my heart set on getting an IF (stock Deluxe) and then I happened to meet a guy with a bike company who was riding up an incredibly gnarly downhill in the Park. We talked a bit and I ended up having a bike made.
That was almost two years ago and I couldn't be happier. Every tube, angle and measurement on the bike is designed for me. He helped me come up with a really cool looking paint (powder) scheme and the bike looks way cooler than any stock IF.
There are a lot of excellent builders that I can recommend who are in the western US, but I'm sure there are at least a few who are local to you. Before making the descision to get an IF, you owe it to yourself to investigate a few smaller builders--I think you will like what you find.
BTW, Gunnar was also a company I was looking into. They employ a lot of Paramount's old welders and their bikes look fantastic. I have no knowledge about their paint issues, but their geometry is kinda like the Fisher Genesis (which everyone either loves or hates).
Good luck! |
| You want the best? Go with IF. | Doc
Jan 31, 2002 6:28 AM | | There is a reason it costs more-
What's more important? Componentry or Frame?
Why put 1500 in components on a 500 frame? |
| Easy, cuz you can save over $600 | Roger
Jan 31, 2002 6:45 AM | | and sign up for La Ruta to test out that new steel ride, or have the nest egg started for a sweet mtb vacation. ;0) |
| We truely are a generation of instant gratification aren't we? | Doc
Jan 31, 2002 6:57 AM | | Personally, I'd rather spend 2k on a good frame that's made to fit me and will last me 10 years than 500 on a cheap Al or cheap steel frame that won't fit me right or will not last 5 years but leave me with enough to go on a weekend's worth of vacation.
To me, the frame is the most important piece of any bike. Followed by wheels, fork, and components. I rode for 6 months, hard, on a set of deore shifters- they worked flawlessly until I sold them. Most people don't realize that the difference between XTR and Deore components don't add up to much unless you race or ride hard.
For example- on my Limited frame I run XTR shifters and a XTR cassette. Everything else is XT. Would a full XTR group provide better preformance? For me, no. Spending 1/2 as much on XT components let me spend more to get a nice frame, which has made biking more enjoyable.
However, on my commuter bike everything is old school 7 speed deore components. I've had less trouble with these parts than the 9 spd XT/XTR stuff.
If the good Rev. is going to be saving up for three years or so than an extra 5 bills is nothing major. |
| Yes, you are right. To a large extent, $ is not the issue | Rev Bubba
Jan 31, 2002 7:29 AM | | I'm not going to put down $7000 for a bike but in the $3000 range, there are enough steel hardtails to keep me looking. I understand the difference between XTR and XT. My hardtail now is basically all XT with the usual XTR rear derailluer. Brakes are HS33's, fork SID SL, wheels, 517's, etc. An all around excellent bike which I will continue to beat and, hopefully, race for a few more years. I want to get all I can get from it and go for all new components at the time of the next purchase. Who knows what will be around then.
I agree with your comments on instant gratification which is why I have given myself the long timeline. Mistakes can happen when you rush into a purchase like this.
Hindsight is invaluable. If I had known what I do now, I would not have the I-Drive but you have to learn to live with your decisions. It is a bit of a stretch to have to look into the financial stability of a company when you buy a bike but I sure wish we could. |
| True | Roger
Jan 31, 2002 11:33 AM | | we are a want it now society, but I didn't get that out of what I posted to you.
IFs are sweet, but are they twice as good (I say twice due to the price) as a Curtlo that will be custom fit to you? For each person that answer would likely be different, it would be a interesting test to take naked steel frames from a few different makers and see which one comes out preferred to a person. It may be suprising.
Ride what ya brung. ;0) |
| Bicycling addressed this in the March issue | Rev Bubba
Jan 31, 2002 11:58 AM | | They did a test of the Jamis Dakota (Reynolds 631 Steel) and their conclusion was that all steel bikes ride very well. More expensive materials may be lighter and certainly a custom frame may have its advantages but in the end, it really is hard to tell the difference.
That being said, I'll still opt for the more expensive material because I've gone mass market on every bike I have ever owned and want to pull out the stops here. (well, alot of the stops) If I have to pay a few hundred more to save a 1/2 pound, I'm willing. If it is a few thousand for the same thing, I'm not.
I did not infer anything from your particular post. I've enjoyed everyone's comments.
An "IF" definitely is not twice as good as a "Curtlo" as the price/benefit ration trails off rapidly after a certain level. |
| Well whatever you decide upon | Roger
Jan 31, 2002 12:09 PM | | enjoy this part of the experience. The hunt for "that" bike is always the best.
Enjoy |
| I'd be asking if the IF was as good as the Curtlo | Dave K
Jan 31, 2002 12:30 PM | | Honestly, I think the only thing the IF have over the Curtlo frames is delivery times and image. One reason why the Curtlo frames are cheaper is that you buy directly from Curtlo. There are no business' between you and the manufacturer (distributer, LBS, etc). It has nothing to do with a difference in quality.
Anyways, the Curtlo's are built out of True Temper OX Platinum which compares very favorably with Reynolds 853. Similar air hardening properties as well as overall strength and weight. Also you can get Doug to custom tailor tubing specs as well. Do you want a stiffer BB because you're a big gear masher? No problem. Or do you want a softer rear triangle to take some of the stings off the roots and rocks. Again no problem. When I inquired with IF to get some tweaks to the stock geometry, I found that it was going to cost quite a bit more (e.g. $200 extra to change TT length).
Discuss the benefits of a sized to fit custom frame with Mike T. When you get something designed to fit you rather than something off the rack, it is noticeable.
Dave |
| That is my experience too | kristian
Jan 31, 2002 12:56 PM | | I have an old TrueTemper OXII Fisher frame and my 853 Fluid. The Fluid fits me better, handles better and weighs more than a pound less (frame weight), but the Fisher has a slightly livlier feel to it. That isn't to say that the ride of 853 is bad or anything (I love it actually), but it feels a little less compliant.
I'm sure that there will continue to be advances in steel between now and when you pull the trigger, but take a hard look at Columbus's Foco tubeset (or whatever it's equivelent is when you buy). If I were to do it over again, I would get Foco instead of 853... |
| Yeah, I don't express myself well over the internet, and tend to | Doc
Jan 31, 2002 12:08 PM | | wander when I type...
I guess it boils down to the fact that a high quality frame is worth the price to me. I was trying to say that I'd much prefer to pay for a high quality frame than use that same money to take a vacation or on componentry.
Components break every year- vacation memories come and go, but a good (really good) frame can last a lifetime.
I'll go back to babbleing now.... |
| I'd rather be riding a good bike .... | scorcher
Jan 31, 2002 12:31 PM | | ...on some new trails in a different country, in blissful ignorance of the fact that it isn't the best bike in the world, than stay at home with a bike that belongs on the best trails in the world.
I would agree with you if we were talking about the difference between a cheap production aluminium frame and a handbuilt quality steel. The fact is we're talking handbuilt quality steel vs. quality handbuilt steel. Frankly, they're both luxury items, for even the most fanatical rider. It's about taste. We're talking vintage Krug instead of a good Bollinger, when if you wanted to get wasted you could just have a Coors (well, about 20 Coorses).
"I get no kick from Champagne. Mere alcohol doesn't thrill me at all ..." |
| So do the memories | The Weasel
Jan 31, 2002 12:37 PM | | But I see your point. Everyone has their pricepoint, and if you can afford to go with a more expensive frame and it will contribute to it's life and the owners satisfaction, then why not. Also, there is something to be said for a bike that is unique in character (both build and paint job). hey Rev, check the ultra blue euro cyclocross bike at Steelman, nice mix of blue and purple. |
| Sycip, very nice bike and guys | Roger
Jan 31, 2002 6:41 AM | | and they do custom. Price is close to that of a an IF but it'll be custom not a cookie cutter (and that's not a shot against IF they're sweet). |
| being an East coast guy | Steve-O
Jan 31, 2002 7:04 AM | | you might also check into Ted Wojcik bikes. Normally when I look at frames (especially steel frames) the first think I inspect are the welds. Ted's welds were the cleanest I had ever seen. Very impressive. Take a look here!
http://www.tedwojcik.com/ |
| The Manic Mechanic? Good idea, thanks.... | Rev Bubba
Jan 31, 2002 7:55 AM | | I remember his stuff in Dirt Rag. |
| Let's see if we can't confuse the issue a little more... | DeRanger
Jan 31, 2002 7:07 AM | | ...of the three frames you listed, I would probably opt for the IF - best rep of the three, consistent quality, and like Burger King, you can definitely "have it your way."
That said, I would like to throw out two other names for you to consider: Steelman and Soulcraft. Both are small frame makers who put out steel hardtails of love. My next bike, finances willing, will be the Manzanita, built up as a singlespeed. (Haven't quite opted for rigid forks yet, but this will definitely be my retro-wagon.) The Steelman frame geometry is a thing of classic beauty - it takes advantage of all of steel's good qualities: rigid and flexy by turns, and at all the right times. If Steelman didn't exist, then Soulcraft would get the nod; Soulcraft is basically the same bike as the Petaluma-era Salsa, one of the all-time great steel hardtail designs. The beauty of Soulcraft is not only is it the same design, but it's also the same welders - in fact, the Soulcraft has probably the cleanest welds I've ever seen: the darn thing looked like it was extruded rather than welded.
I agree with everything you said about steel hardtails generally - there is a timelessness there that defines "classic" design. I don't really have anything against full-suspension bikes - who knows, there may be an Element TO somewhere in my distant future - but I will always put a steel hardtail at the top of my "one-bike-for-all-time" list. One of the things I love most about my Blizzard is that the design is essentially unchanged after 18 years (the only difference being a slightly slacker headtube to accomodate suspension forks) - not too many FS owners can say that.
Have fun, Rev!
DeR |
| I'd vote for IF rather thAn the others you mention | Ichabod
Jan 31, 2002 7:35 AM | | although I know more about IF thAn I do about the other two builders. You have the luxury of time to make your decision, so I'd advise you to get to know any of the builders you're considering and go with the one you "connect" with the best.
For me going with Seven was the obvious choice because I was riding a Merlin, and Seven consisted of everyon who made Merlin cool, given free range to build what they thought would be the best frames they could make. I've never regretted the decision.
There are many cool builders out there and I wish I could buy one frame from each of them... |
| Another custom suggestion | Mich
Jan 31, 2002 7:51 AM | | I was looking into a steel hardtail frames a while back and then I decided to buy a FS. However, I still want a steel hardtail but I'm going to have pay off the new bike first. Enough about me.
I think a custom frame would be the way to go. I really like the idea of having a frame built based upon your body specs. Check out Strong frames (Carl Strong) if your considering custom. I don't think he was mentioned. And I agree the other recommendations of Steelman and Ted Wojcick (sp?). I have read good things about all of these builders. |
| -------> No Brainer here.. | 2melow
Jan 31, 2002 7:52 AM | | Definitely go Independent Fabrication if you want the most custom, best finishing, and best paint in the industry.
The crew at IF is the easiest to work with. You can call them up anytime. Most of these guys came from Fat Chance and Merlin, so you know they make nice bikes.
Did I mention they are an employee-owned company also? Way cool, no slackers there.
I've got two IF bikes and couldn't be happier. My next one from them is gonna be custom for my girlfriend.
IF you go IF, definitely get the Stirling Silver headtube badge. Sweeeet!
Others worth looking at : Sycip, Rick Hunter, Soulcraft, Steelman, Vicious Cycles, Teesdale, Curtlo.
Some IF frames in my Ultimate booth @ Interbike.
~Brett (www.ussbike.com) |
| That purple color is something I have in mind | Rev Bubba
Jan 31, 2002 8:10 AM | | Really, I like purple. Even my wife suggested I go with that color if I was to get a custom frame. |
| Saw that yesterday. Too bad this is long term research.... | Rev Bubba
Jan 31, 2002 9:12 AM | | No running off to buy a frame today for me. |
| u'd have loved the color... | deanna
Jan 31, 2002 1:40 PM | | ...that my Seven used to be. It was poiple! 2-layer paint, made it look almost 3D, the shade of purple would shift depending on how the light hit it... even had some sparkles!
:)
d |
| Past tense? | Ichabod
Jan 31, 2002 1:58 PM | | Is it a different color, or gone? |
| different color | deanna
Jan 31, 2002 2:10 PM | | the frame was pretty scraped up from the mishap w/ united last May so i decided to get it repainted and have the dent repaired/filled. it's now green apple fade to black--like the mango fade to black currently on the Seven website. i pick it up from the bike shop tomorrow. yay! too bad it's too messy out to go ride this weekend. :(
d |
| if you want an artistic paint job then you have | moschika
Jan 31, 2002 8:40 AM | | to look at landsharks. those bikes have some of the coolest paint jobs i've ever seen. as well as very clean welds, etc.
however i went with curtlo last year when i decided to get my new custom steel frame. but i did think about my local builders like soulcraft and ibis(before they moved). but for the price, i couldn't stand paying an extra $100 in sales tax for the frame. $100 got me some of the other things i needed to complete my bike. plus they were quite a few hundred dollars more, at least, then many other small builders.
i couldn't be happier with Curtlo. he's been building bikes for almost 20 years, his paint jobs are excellent, his craftsmanship is spot on. and talk about a small operation, it's just him. even tho he does send out his frames for painting.
all custom for $625. i think Curtlo gets second fiddle because he doesn't charge $1000+ for his frames. but i don't think the quality of his frames are any less then the IFs, Steelmans, Soulcrafts, or Landsharks of the world that i've seen. |
| $625 is a screamin deal too. Did you get custom geometry? nm | Fast Eddy
Jan 31, 2002 8:55 AM | | |
| yes, the whole thing is custom for $625 | moschika
Jan 31, 2002 5:06 PM | | you can get custom geo, mounts, etc with powdercoat for $625. there are some paint schemes which add like $50-75 to the tag but i really liked one of the stock colors.
if i ever get a geared bike or another road bike it most likely will be a curtlo. but that may be some time yet. |
| EXACTLY! | gonzostrike
Jan 31, 2002 3:16 PM | | do you want to ride "a piece of art" or a bike made to your specs with good but unspectacular paint, and the balance $$ in higher qualityu components?
Doug Curtiss knows what he's doing. At $625 his frames are practically a gift. Only a fool would pay an extra $450 just to get the IF "name" and the IF "custom paint job." Neither of those two things makes the bike ride any better. This is what Doug Curtiss knows, and it's why he's able to sell to wise shoppers.
As Sy Syms says about his clothing stores,
"an educated consumer is our best customer"
I'd say the same about Curtlo |
| another one... | bones
Jan 31, 2002 8:56 AM | | Probably not one you've thought of but I have one of their frames and I cannot say enough good things about it. They are hand built in-house and are built for strength. The welds are beautiful and the powdercoat they use is very, very good.
Plus, you'd probably be the only one out on the east coast with one.
http://www.jerichobicycles.com
b. |
| If I were doing it again | WAM
Jan 31, 2002 8:56 AM | | I'd go with a frame from either Tom Teesdale(tetcycles.com) again or Curtlo, or Hunter then If you're really into a cool look, then have it shipped to http://www.spectrumpowderworks.com/spwbikepics1.htm spectrum powderworks for a really nice powdercoat.
I think the gunnar is great if their geometry is perfect for you, but you end up paying a similar price as a one of the other builders custom builders. I've heard people complain about their stiffness in the rear end and others rave about the compliance. That's what you get with a production frame. The same frame will be a noodle to someone and rough to others. Big differences between two people with the same measurements, one may be a 145 pound finesse rider and the other is a 195 pound masher.
GO CUSTOM! |
| I'll second Spectrum | kristian
Jan 31, 2002 9:21 AM | | My bike is a Fluid which at one time was Spectrum's house brand (they are too busy powder coating to screw around with frames anymore though). Mark can do just about anything that IF does in terms of painting, but he works with powder and special wet paint that integrates with the powder clearcoat so a Spectrum finish will outlast any IF finish (which is wet paint). I've seen a lot of Mark's work and he is truely an artist, plus he's one hell of a good rider. |
| My TET... | DAS
Jan 31, 2002 11:57 AM | | is on the way!
I had it built up fully custom geometery, dimensions, he's doing an auto paint job on it...it should be here any day. Columbus Zona.
AND, I got it with an Eccentric Bottom bracket, disc brakes, with cable stops and a derailleur hanger. That makes it both a Single Speed specific bike AND a geared hardtail frame if I ever go back to gears.
Price is in the Curtlo range...I didn't go Curtlo b/c I heard the timeframe was like 6 months and i don't like that ovalized tube. I could be wrong, maybe just vicious lies?
Should have pics soon. |
| I just ordered a Curtlo for myself and... | Dave K
Jan 31, 2002 9:12 AM | | And I bought one for Penny instead of an engagement ring. I don't think there are much better steel custom frames out there. Actually I don't think there are many builders that take the time to fillet braze frames together anymore (they may braze on cable guides and brake posts, but not the actual frame). The end result is a gorgeous frame that is truly custom.
When I was ordering Penny's frame, I needed a custom geometry as his stock sizes were too big. After a bit of research on my part, I came up with some numbers and Doug offered some suggestions as well. The end result was this.
Penny with the bike that we built in Doug's shop.
Doug was very easy to work with. We custom ordered the parts spec as well.
I also have a Dekerf and it is also an amazing frame. Nice welds and very solid construction. It handles like a dream, but it's an Implant and not an XC racer. I wanted slightly different geometry for my XC frame and since we already have one Curtlo, another would be welcome. Also the price is very hard to beat.
Doug offers a few paint options. The standard is a single colour powdercoat. He does also have someone who will do fancier "wet" paints, but of course that costs a bit extra.
When looking for Penny's frame I looked at IF, Dekerf, Kelly, TET, and a few others, but I decided that Curtlo would be as good as or better than any of the others at a price that was lower. While IF/Dekerf and the others make nice welds, you really have to see the fillet brazed frame to see how beautiful it is. I don't think there is a nicer way to put a frame together.
The only downside is that it takes a bit of time for Doug to finish the bike for you. From what I've heard, that is not uncommon for small custom builders though.
One frame that I don't think I've seen mentioned is the Edge Cycles Foco. Again, it's a really nice frame sold by some incredibly great people. You could probably do some custom geometry tweaking if you'd like. www.edgecycles.com. Screampint can help you out here.
Hope this helps,
Dave |
| Your previous posts first got me looking at Curtlo | Rev Bubba
Jan 31, 2002 9:17 AM | | So, the good stuff that is available here really does help. Thanks. |
| Your previous posts first got me looking at Curtlo | Rev Bubba
Jan 31, 2002 9:31 AM | | So, the good stuff that is available here really does help. Thanks. |
| Well, as long as we're naming every ....... | scorcher
Jan 31, 2002 9:42 AM | | ...quality steel frame out there I have to mention the Edge Foco Peach. I considered just about everyone mentioned above, but didn't have a 3 year time frame to make a decision and wait for the frame to arrive!
In the end I plumped for the peach firstly because it had the geometry and fit I wanted without having to go full custom (although it was only the second "between sizes" frame so was virtually custom). Basically it had the same geometry to the Kona I knew and loved, with a longer head tube and even steeper head angle. The most noticeable difference from my old Kona, in spite of the reduced weight and steeper head angle, was its descending ability - the result of the longer head tube, steeper angle and alignment from a quality build.
The second reason was responsiveness - so many of the other builders gave me a good impression of being flaky - at least one well known and droolworthy brand didn't respond to my calls for a couple of months, not giving me much confidence that I would be able to deal with them through the whole ordering process. The people you deal with should be a big factor in your decision.
I'll shut up now - I'm beginning to sound like this is the most important decision one can ever make in a lifetime.
Oh, did I mention the bit about picking it up in person, having it built up and getting its first rides in on the trails where it was conceived with some local guidance? Very cool. |
| Where do you get one of them from, then? | Jive Tolkien
Jan 31, 2002 9:52 AM | | |
| I got it from this really cool town in Colorado called ...... | scorcher
Jan 31, 2002 10:06 AM | | MOAB, at this really cool shop called OVER ...
No wait, it wasn't Moab, it was ....
Sh!t. I've forgotten now.
Something to do with vegetables. |
| Ah yes..... | Jive Tolkien
Jan 31, 2002 10:16 AM | | Aubergine CO is on my list of must-visit towns. |
| That's the one. Thanks. | scorcher
Jan 31, 2002 10:43 AM | | I'd also definitely recommend Fruita if you're in the area, but I don't know if they've got any riding there. |
| STRONGFRAMES.COM! | mojoman
Jan 31, 2002 9:57 AM | | Strong frames built by Karl Strong are the best I've seen. I saw a nice cross-bike he did last night. He does Full custom, uses all materials to get the ride you want. So many tube/shape choices too. I have an IBIS and I hear he used to build for them too....
Definitely check him out, he's supposed to be great to work with, his paint rules, and his rides are amazing...He'll make my next bike when I get the dough!
mojoman |
| Sealed tubes | The Weasel
Jan 31, 2002 12:42 PM | | Surprised nobody mentioned the issue of sealed tubes. I heard all the tubes in IF's are sealed, except for the BB, headtube, and seat tube of course. Any word of this about the curtlo, steelman, dekerf, or gunnar, since these seemed to be mentioned quite a bit. |
| Good point. I remember the ad's referring to it now. (nm) | Rev Bubba
Jan 31, 2002 12:49 PM | | nm |
| That's something I asked about | kristian
Jan 31, 2002 1:05 PM | | The tubes on my bike are not sealed and there is actually a reason why that can be bad (something about trapping gasses but I don't remember exactly...so take that with a grain of salt). I didn't worry about it too much since Colorado Spring's climate is one step away from being a desert.
Rev: If you use a rust proofer on the frame before you build it up, I don't think you will have any problems with rust, but sealed tubes are definately something to ask your builder about. |
| Nope....all IF tubes are sealed, except for the seat tube | 2melow
Jan 31, 2002 1:31 PM | | ...its all in the finishing process that adds cost.
"We want your IF to last forever. That's why we seal up the tubes so moisture can't get in to cause rust. The only tube we can't seal is the seat tube, so we treat it with J.P. Weigle's Frame Saver. We use threaded brake mounts with replaceable posts, which can get you back on the road or trail fast no matter where you are. Our dropouts are machined and heat treated, making them light and strong. Even our bottom bracket shells are machined and relieved on the inside, keeping the strength high and the weight low.
Of course, all these things added up can't really make a bike feel like it's yours. So we offer all our customers a huge variety of ways to personalize their bikes. Choose top tube or downtube cable routing on mountain bikes, and cantilever or V-brake setups on the mountain, cross, and touring bikes. Brake cable routing on road bikes? It's your choice and there's no extra charge. Want more? Well, we offer three stock fades and two single colors (all pictured on the featured bikes in the catalogue). You can also pick any single color from our fades or change the direction of a fade from front to back or top to bottom again, at no charge. Want even more? Well you might have to pay a bit, but you can add fender eyelets, rack mounts, extra water bottle cage mounts, custom paint, hydraulic brake cable routing, and the list goes on.
So, as you can see, investing in an IF is more like investing in yourself. Go ahead. You deserve it, and its okay to let everyone know." |
| Some commments.... | Pisgahboy
Jan 31, 2002 1:13 PM | | from a dedicated hardtail pilot. I've got four Fat Chance bikes that I beat on. Two YoEddy's, one Ti and a Wicked Lite. You know IF's history with regards to Fat so I'll skip that. A friend of mine has an IF which is the same size as my Yo's. I've ridden it plenty to be able to compare the two so I'll give you some opinions based on my experience. First, I think 853 is one of the more over-rated tubes sets out there. No where near stiff enough to keep me happy. I also think it was over-hyped as well. Notice that many production bike companies are moving away from 853. IF's front triangle is 853. I'm a fairly aggressive rider so stiffness is a good thing for me. I'm 5'9" and 180 so I'm not exactly a featherweight. I feel that the front end on IF's frame is way too noodly when the going gets rough. This could be in part to the Judy fork on that bike, but, I can feel that frame giving when I'm really leaning on it. Also, the bb is a bit too flexy for me as well. IF's tubes are 1/8" smaller diameter on the top and down tube because of the 853 tubing. Bad thing in my opinion. That wee bit of extra diameter really gives that design a whole lot more precise feel. I believe (and I may be wrong on this) that the stays are smaller diameter as well. That bike is patterned after the Yo and it is a decent copy. It's not as good as the original, in my opinion. I still think the MA Fats are better than the NY. At this stage, if I broke one of the Yo's, I'd buy a Curtlo for the fact that I could get it built exactly the way I want it without giving up the retirement savings. True Temper tubing is a must for me on a steel ht frame. I dealt with the guys who work for IF when they were with Fat and can say without a doubt, they build one kick @ss bike. I just don't like the tubing they use. One other thing I'd say is also important is clearance to run a 2.3 tire. I've started running Gazzalodis on mine and they rule. 33 psi in back and 30 up front. Really makes the ride more comfy and they corner like crazy. Make sure you can mount discs as well.
You've got lots of choices. Good luck in your quest.
A. |
| One caveat to throw in there | kristian
Jan 31, 2002 1:43 PM | | There are a lot of different choices in terms of tubes. With 853 there are several different tube diameters, thicknesses and butting lengths that can dramatically effect its ride characteristics. I find the ride of my 853 bike to be stiffer than the ride of my OXII bike--which basically all boils down to the tubeset choices. I'm not sure if I would go so far as to say that 853 is over-rated (it rides very well and is very light for steel), but I don't think it's the best choice anymore--Foco beats both 853 and OX Platinum IMHO.
Good call on the tire clearance and the disk mount. Clearance for a 2.3" is about perfect because it won't get in the way of your chain and you can still use relatively short chainstays if you want to. |
| Another tally for IF... | S+J
Jan 31, 2002 1:17 PM | | I did a corporation report on IF last year for Business 101. I have also ridden a friend's IF Deluxe (same friend owns a Somerville-built Fat Chance Wicked as well). After doing this, I have come to a conclusion: IF rules. I've never ridden a nicer-looking, smoother-feeling, or better-handling hardtail at any price. If I win the lottery there will be a custom Deluxe hanging in my garage.
Bonus: Several IF employees formerly worked at the Fat Chance factory in Somerville under the master Chris Chance himself.
Anyway, good luck on your purchase Rev!
S.J |
| Another tally for IF... | 2melow
Jan 31, 2002 2:10 PM | | ...also, don't forget IF and Seven got all the great welders when Merlin was sold and moved to Tennessee.
Too bad the folks in sales at Seven are stuck up and think they make the greatest thing since sliced bread. That attitude to me just makes me want to run away from ever owning a Seven... |
| REV !!!-- GO TO THE BIANCHI PAGE IF YOU... | dlowell
Jan 31, 2002 2:32 PM | | are looking for a first rate steel steed. Look in the "reparto corse"
section -- NO ONE -- makes a finer steel bicycle. Of the others you mentioned look to IF - it is the best of the three.
You could also check out the Ritchey page -- there are lots of options particularly if you want to design something with natural cush.
For a hard ass hard tail go to Cove bikes -- Vancouver.
Just my $.o2 -- Dave |
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