|   *** IMPORTANT!!! Read!! *** | Inclag
Apr 22, 2002 12:33 PM | | This is off of another mountain bike forum that you all should read
"ssaddict
Pro Rider
Registered: Oct 2001
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 293
Manitou's irresponsible trail etiquette (please read)
I found out some disturbing news when doing some trail maintenance this weekend. Manitou, while out doing testing here in Phoenix a few months ago, was not only using our trails improperly (pissing off hikers, bikers, and equestrians alike) they were also riding and doing photo shoots in closed areas and actually building their own sections of trail in places to test their forks!
For those of you not familiar with Phoenix, South Mountain the area where these trails that were used are located is a Preserve. It is a very eco sensitive part of our landscape with all sorts of protected desert creatures, plants, and in some places rock paintings from the early Indians. The trail where most of the testing and building took place is called National Trail. This is a multi use trail that probably sees more traffic than any other multi use trail in the state.
Manitou was out here for about a week doing testing, and having employees, racers and magazine editors doing shuttle runs on primarily this same trail. The results of their irresponsible actions are just now starting to affect the locals. There is now talk of the possibility of closing these trails to bikes all together. The trail, which use to be 100% single track, is now starting to develop secondary lines, short cuts, and trail damage, which never existed before Manitou came to town. Tensions between hikers and bikers are now worse than ever. Bike company's that wish to hold Demo days are no longer allowed in the park, Manitou in specific has been banned from ever coming back.
How could a company based in California, a place were trails have already been closed, be so irresponsible? National Trail is perhaps the best bike trail in Phoenix, I personally ride it 2-3 times a week, as well as thousands of other riders, hikers, and the occasional equestrians. Some of these wrong doings were personally witness by many others and myself, some of them were even caught on the film of numerous editors who took pictures of riding in closed areas on these new forks.
I'm not sure what this will accomplish but I just wanted to let you all know that members of our industry our killing our sport." |
| wow, I just lost alot of respect for them (nm) | atilla the hun
Apr 22, 2002 12:42 PM | | I SAID NM |
| DAMN IMPORTANT! | menachite
Apr 22, 2002 12:42 PM | | I was a first hand witness to this.
In fact I even garnered a ride to the top of the hill from them in order to witness their trail usage first hand.
Thanks for the ride to the top Manitou...however the ettiquette and misuse of our local trails is by no means acceptable.
I don't think that the folks over in California would like 30 or so of us Phoenix/AZ people showing up to your hotbed trails and screwing the delicate multi-use balance over there. Or would you? Then again I doubt we would even stoop so low as to doing something like that. Jeff whatcha doing this weekend?
Hey Inclag, drop me an email with any info you have regarding this subject so I can help out.
- menachite |
| EMAIL ADDRESS | menachite
Apr 22, 2002 12:45 PM | | jakebogie at hotmail dot com |
| DAMN IMPORTANT! | Inclag
Apr 22, 2002 12:49 PM | | Well, I'm actually from up in the Northeast, but when I read about this on the other forum I thought that everyone should hear know this. Go to this link here to read more http://www.ridemonkey.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=17122 . I don't know it will work. If not just cut and paste. The person you might want to contact is ssaddict. I hope everything works out for you guys down in AZ. Good luck.
Inclag |
| what a weak story | rightsleeve
Apr 22, 2002 3:41 PM | | i like the begining when he says he heard last weekend about stuff that happend a few months ago. that makes him a great source for information. i believe that manitou was out there and may have been a little irresponsible but this story sounds like it got a little exaggerated by the time it finally got posted. and besides if the locals were truely concerned they wouldn't have been letting it go on for a week. if what they were doing was truly illegal there would be someone of authority they could have informed that week instead of complaining months later. |
| So leg me get this straight... | cleatgrrl
Apr 22, 2002 1:34 PM | | You rode shuttle with them, stood around kissing ass and hoping to score some swag, then you went home and whined about it on the internet? Just trying to get the picture... |
| Not quite... | menachite
Apr 22, 2002 1:40 PM | | Negative on the standing around "kissing-ass" trying to score schwag.
Yes I did get 1 ride to the top of the hill from them out of the 5 runs I did that day. Thanked them for it too.
Went home and whined about it on the internet? Nope...I thought only girls did that.
Are you just trying to play devils advocate or are you for real? |
| Are you for real? | cleatgrrl
Apr 22, 2002 1:43 PM | | So far all you've said is somebody did something wrong, and you watched it. Sounds like you were participating in some way, perhaps riding the same closed trails? I don't really get why this story didn't end with: and then we all went out and told them these trails were closed and they really shouldn't be riding them. Didn't you say something to them? |
| I told them that cleatgrrl was cheap and easy! | menachite
Apr 22, 2002 1:52 PM | | But seriously...
Normally most mountain bikers stop when there is a group or even a single hiker coming up the trail we are descending. Well this was not the case for these guys...and I told everyone of them that passed me as I waited for the hikers to pass that around here that can cause major static. The hikers were in agreement with me and it took a lot of my time and patience trying to quell the anger in the hikers that they blew through.
Then when they were creating their own lines down Holbert and cutting straight shots through switchbacks I approached two of the Manitou reps...I think Jose and Doug and stated that this can't go on anymore. We get enough flack from other trail users just from using the allocated trails. I stated that we don't need anymore "illegal" "no off trail" lines on that preserve. I thanked them for the shuttle ride to the top and went along my way.
- menachite |
| You could have been more effective | cleatgrrl
Apr 22, 2002 2:00 PM | | if you had kicked all their asses! Just kidding, but I get really burned up about those people who show up and tear shiit up and go away and have no qualms about it. Believe me, they would have gotten a piece of my mind.
And then they would have said, wow that girl's a hell cat, we better pack up and get out of here right now! |
| WOW that girl's a hell cat! | menachite
Apr 22, 2002 2:04 PM | | Can we have some of that imported?
May I formerly apologize for the subject of my topic earlier? I doubt that you are cheap or easy! Actually I can't even comment on that nor would I want to.
Hell Cat women are are in no way cheap or easy...I know I married one.
Thanks...
- menachite |
| Well I was just going to order a magnum for my girl's bike.... | TNJED®
Apr 22, 2002 12:51 PM | | but I think I will hold off and review other options. Here we are trying to be careful about access/environmental issues, and a major player in the industry goes and f**cks thing up. What a shame
-TNJED |
| how reliable of a source does this come from...... | krank
Apr 22, 2002 12:56 PM | | Is there proof of this. I ask this because people have been known to make stuff up just to slander a company because they have a personal issue with them. Also because if this is true, I think people need to write to them and tell their LBS's about this! This is a very serious issue and I'd hate to see my trails here in New Mexico get chewed up like that. |
| Good point, but they were out there... | Fat-tire
Apr 22, 2002 1:02 PM | | I do know that Manitou was out there, as evident from Mt Bike Mag's June issue. Not only do I think we need to let Answer know this is BS (if true), but let the other media outlets that witnessed this know that we could care less if they get the "cool" pics if the results are that we get to ride man made mt-biking parks because all the trails are closed.
I live in AZ, and if it's true, I'm going to be more than a little pissed, since I only just "discovered" the National Trail last week. |
| Oh they were there all right | ScottN
Apr 22, 2002 1:41 PM | | A number of locals that I ran into in the past couple weeks have mentioned the disrespect that Manitou's people had for our South Mountain trails.
The trail that apparently was worked over the most was National. After riding up there a couple weeks ago, I believe that something was going on. There are whole new lines around very technical sections, spots where rocks were rearranged and filled in to make climbs more doable, and a stupid shortcut around a whole switchback section that runs straight down the mountain.
Now, I've been riding So. Mtn for a few years now and the hikers, bikers and erosion ARE taking their toll on the trail. Every year it's slightly different: more difficult here, easier there, but that's just what happens with so many people using it. What I saw last week was a major change from only 2 months ago, more than I've ever seen in such a short period of time.
It just sucks to see that kind of abuse from a big company.
SN |
| Have you been on Holbert? | menachite
Apr 22, 2002 2:00 PM | | Even the shuttle heads on Sunday mornings don't touch the lines that they cut through the top section of switchbacks. |
| Extremely reliable...... | Inclag
Apr 22, 2002 1:03 PM | | This to my knowledge is all true, and I am 100% certain with it. I put my trust into everyone over at ride monkey. Plus as someone else has already stated, who is a member of this forum, he also witnessed everything firsthand. I know that rarely people do these sort of things to try to destroy a companies reputation, but this isn't the case here. |
| Yes, unfortunatly its true | ssaddict
Apr 22, 2002 1:08 PM | | myself and many other trail users saw these actions repeated for about a week. |
| I will never buy a Manitou Fork again...Blatant lack of respect. | UrbanFlow
Apr 22, 2002 1:18 PM | | I come from a whole family of Mtn Bikers and will discourage them all from buying Manitou as well. Blatant lack of respect for us all... |
| I will not include Manitou in my prayers tonight.... | Humphrey
Apr 22, 2002 5:30 PM | | That'll teach 'em! |
| What the hell? | cleatgrrl
Apr 22, 2002 1:37 PM | | And you call yourselves locals? |
| Excuse me?!? | ssaddict
Apr 22, 2002 2:21 PM | | Did I say we're not doing anything? Did I say I didn't talk to them? I was doing trail work this weekend so back off!!! Where do you get off jumping on my back? |
| she sounds like a fat ogre of a girl. | ibismojo
Apr 22, 2002 3:15 PM | | |
| cleatho | [nm]
Apr 22, 2002 3:51 PM | | |
| EYE-WITNESS! | menachite
Apr 22, 2002 1:09 PM | | And I don't have any other beef with Manitou...never have.
They focked up good this time though. |
| So what did you say to them | cleatgrrl
Apr 22, 2002 1:33 PM | | when you witnessed these acts of wanton destruction? Or did you just witness? I personally would have said something. When we have closed trails, there are usually authorities that can intervene to stop the illegal riding. Or were they actually doing anything illegal? |
| Anybody have any contact info for them? | Fat-tire
Apr 22, 2002 1:35 PM | | I can't find a damn email or phone number for them on their Web site. |
| Write a letter | cleatgrrl
Apr 22, 2002 1:49 PM | | Write a serious letter, signed by about 50 mountain bikers that expresses your beef: Manitou testing was conducted in an irresponsible way that worsens the plight of mountain bikers in this area. You'll probably get a nice apologetic reply, and maybe even a donation to your local trail advocacy group. Had the "witnesses" intervened at the time, the problem could have been prevented, but now after the fact, economic retaliation is pointless.
When we see mountain bikers f'ing up around here, we tell them, "Hey, buddy, you're f'ing up our trails. Learn to brake without skidding and taking the whole mountain down with you." |
| more on the topic... | trail advocate
Apr 22, 2002 2:03 PM | | I couldn't agree more with cleatgrrl. If they were there for a week, as previously stated, why not go up and give them hell on the spot? It is better (and much more effective) to correct a problem and save the area from damage than it is to complain after the fact.
As for what to do now...
The most professional and effective way to go forward would be to pen a letter to them and cc the board. Let Answer Products know that you are posting the letter also (you can call them directly to get the name of the President by calling information for Valencia, CA. The area code is 661.). This way, if in fact true, they have to respond as they know many people will read it. If you don't get a response then, and only then, start the bashing and multiple email letters of disgust.
Good luck. If it is true then I will do my best to put pressure on them from a local level as well. |
| wow ... | Nick
Apr 22, 2002 2:16 PM | | "Had the "witnesses" intervened at the time, the problem could have been prevented"
Is that right?
I doubt that the Manitou skid crew would have packed up and found another testing area at the request of locals saying "Hey, buddy, you're f'ing up our trails" ... even as compelling and powerful a statement that is.
Place the blame where it belongs, on Answer Corp.
I DO agree with you and believe me I think I would have little trouble telling what I thought myself, but I don't think those that witnessed it nor posted the info here deserve any grief.
I talked with some Manitou reps a few years back at the bike show when I was working a booth for the local IMBA affiliate. I asked them what they could do for us, any swag they would donate to give away to volunteers, a fork, hats, t-shirts, $$; anything. They told me outright that "they don't do that kind of thing" and I should focus on the local shops for "giveaways".
I'll never forget that.
Nick
(3, no 4 RS products, 1 Marzocchi, 1 Stratos even ... zero Manitou) |
| one way to stop 'em -- clothesline technique | [nm]
Apr 22, 2002 3:52 PM | | |
| contact info for Answer.... | wg
Apr 22, 2002 2:07 PM | | This pisses me off. I'm a SF BayArea rider and know what if feels like to have trails shut down because of a few a$$es that ruin it for everyone.
Here's contact info I could find doing some quick searching:
Taken off their web site http://www.answerproducts.com/
661-257-4411 Looks like that's the main number. Tech suppt, warranty etc all start with this number.
Answer Products
28209 Ave. Stanford Valencia, CA 91355 -3984
Found on the Consumer Affairs web site and on another site: Answer Products Inc. at (800) 423-0273 |
| hey clitgrrl... | mtbberzrkr
Apr 22, 2002 2:14 PM | | If you read menachite's post, he did say something to the fuk's who hacked up our trail, but they ignored him, so he left. Others on the trail talked to them as well throughout the week, but they were obviously ignored.
A friend of mine who works at a local shop emailed manitou, and promptly got a call back from a rep. The rep. stated that they were in the wrong and apologized. He also said that they would'nt be back(not like it's their choice).
Their crew included not noly manitou reps, and product testers, but magazine editors(who should know better) and some pro racers, including John Tomac.
Unfortunately, I missed out on riding with them the day menachite got to (some of us have to work :), but I did see them at the top of Holbert, before menachite and myself did a run. I wish I could've stayed and kicked Johnny T's ass down the side of the mountain for disrespecting our trails. If you read this Johnny, I'm the guy with the devil horns, come back if you have a problem. A-HOLE! YOU SHOULD KNOW BETTER! |
| There you go making more friends... | menachite
Apr 22, 2002 2:23 PM | | No wonder the playground emptied when ever you took off the feed bag and went out to play.
HAHA!
Let's go do shuttles in Valencia, CA this weekend...I can loan you a Manitou fork to break. |
| Hey Jeff ... | Nick
Apr 22, 2002 2:23 PM | | I saw you're selling off the Bullit + misc. stuff, what's the scoop on the new frame? What are you looking to replace it with?
More important than that, do you think you'll be able to get all the blood off the frame before you ship it?
On that note, beat Johnny T down the mountain and you get to ride WHATEVER THE HELL YOU WANT!
Nick |
| actually... | mtbberzrkr
Apr 22, 2002 2:34 PM | | I'm keeping the bullit, took the ad off this a.m. My wife is gonna help me witht the extra funds for the new ride, KHS Dominatrix, Romic shock, Hanebrink world cup fork. The blood stays on!
As far as Johnny T goes, I didn't say anything about riding my bike with him.
Take care :) |
| Hey, Geoffrey | Pup
Apr 23, 2002 8:43 AM | | How about some finesse with the name-calling.
You want chew on Sami, do it on what she says and does as opposed to some relative differences in your body parts, eh. If for no other reason, for the sake of us out here what have to hear it.
If you're lucky, she might give you some material to work with....
P |
| I WAS GOING TO ORDER ONE OF THEIR FORKS THIS WEEK, BUT... | Mountain Cycle Shawn
Apr 22, 2002 3:04 PM | | this changed my mind. In fact I will not buy a Manitou product ever again! |
| 205.188.197.24 | Mountain Cycle Shawn
Apr 22, 2002 3:07 PM | | I WAS GOING TO ORDER ONE OF THEIR FORKS THIS WEEK, BUT... |
| contact the mags | chupacabra
Apr 22, 2002 3:10 PM | | The magazines might not be so quick to print your letter, but Manitou would certainly pay attention to bad press in one (or all) of the magazines. I think you'd get a quicker response from them than just posting here. I'd hate to lose national trail just because some out of towners don't know how to behave on a multiuse trail. I don't think you'll see many Sherman forks sold in Phoenix if we don't have anywhere to ride them. |
| re: *** IMPORTANT!!! Read!! *** | ^Dr Evil^
Apr 23, 2002 1:30 AM | | Quote
i found out some disturbing news when doing some trail maintenance this weekend. Manitou, while out doing testing here in Phoenix a few months ago, was not only using our trails improperly.
they where there for 1 week and wore out the trails !!!!
---------------------------
first he says he found out, then he says he seen it happen !!!!
this has so many holes in it ,i don't believe it at all. |
| The freeriders were behind the grassy knoll... | Paul B
Apr 23, 2002 3:49 AM | | > first he says he found out, then he says he seen it happen !!!!
> this has so many holes in it ,i don't believe it at all.
* * * * *
Bucky, this shiit happens every spring -- EVERY spring for the past, oh, 3-4 years at least. Manitou sets up their trailer at the Pima Canyon parking lot (the main access to South Mountain) and runs their tests up and down National and other trails for about a week. Last year they also invited the mountain biking media, as they did this year.
I've seen the trailer, year after year. I've spoken to Tomac and the technicians. Their presence at the park is not in question.
The fact of the matter is, Answer/Manitou has been abusing the trails for years. YEARS. Every spring they show up, do their damnedest to tear up the trails, and vanish at the end of the week. The media shows up and gives the riders the camera courage not only to ride sick(er) stuff but to wander way off-trail to set up better pictures.
Then the year goes by -- forgive and forget, right? Probably it'll happen this year, too.
I personally blame the photographers. Before the testing became a media circus, I don't recall seeing the test riders wander (too far) off trail. Now they're spending more time posing than testing. If you were Answer, would you give up several full-page photos of your product in the midsummer issues?
I also credit more vigilance on the part of local riders and trail advocates, who are paying more attention to sticky issues like access and abuse.
Don't expect it to stop, unless Answer either owns up to the damage or gets its ass kicked out of the park.
p. |
| re: *** IMPORTANT!!! Read!! *** | NateHawk
Apr 23, 2002 6:07 AM | | I'm stripping the Manitou off my ride this summer and getting something else. It also looks like I'm buying new shoes. Until that moment, I'm removing Manitou's name from all my products. They don't deserve my business. |
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