|   trail building observations (pics) | Brodiegrrl
Sep 6, 2002 3:52 PM | | While on a little ride today, we went down a trail that is in NEED of some work. Following are example of old stuff, and new stuff.
Examples of Structures built on the North Shore, North Vancouver.
Many builders find it easier to use treated wood from home. While this works, it doesn't tend to last in the rainforest environment and it doesn't look as nice. One of the important things to consider is the asthetic value of the work. Not only should it be functional it should look cool! Treated wood has a very sterile quality to it, while great on the deck it just doesn't fit in in the wilderness.
Once people realize the value of using natural products around them, like cedar, they start to understand. The common mistake is to make the rungs too small and too far apart.
This structure avoids a marshy area by taking the rider along a log and down beyond the mucky area. You can also ride off earlier if you choose.
View as riding comes onto structure;
View looking back at structure;
Example of rungs too far apart and not thick enough. This will have to be repaired next year.
This is an old section of the trail where the builder attempted to make a line along the log. Although a nice attempt, the line doesn't flow and the rungs he nailed to the log are falling off. The builder is forcing people to ride in the muck beside the log instead of allowing the rider to make this line.
This cedar bridge will be here for a long time, at least 5 years. Which is a good life for any wooden structure.
The rungs are close together and big
The bridge itself is suspended out of the muck.
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| Which trail is that? (nm) | scott.com
Sep 6, 2002 4:30 PM | | nm |
| pangor | Brodiegrrl
Sep 6, 2002 4:53 PM | | its a muck fest in the winter, if it were a horse it would be shot. |
| additional pictures | Brodiegrrl
Sep 7, 2002 8:28 PM | | Examples of Structures built on the North Shore, North Vancouver.
Many builders find it easier to use treated wood from home. While this works, it doesn't tend to last in the rainforest environment and it doesn't look as nice. One of the important things to consider is the asthetic value of the work. Not only should it be functional it should look cool! Treated wood has a very sterile quality to it, while great on the deck it just doesn't fit in in the wilderness.
Once people realize the value of using natural products around them, like cedar, they start to understand. The common mistake is to make the rungs too small and too far apart.
This structure avoids a marshy area by taking the riding along a log and down beyond the mucky area. You can also ride off earlier if you choose.
View as riding comes onto structure;
View looking back at structure;
Example of rungs too far apart and not thick enough. This will have to be repaired next year.
This is an old section of the trail where the building attempted to make a line along the log. Although a nice attempt, the line doesn't flow and the rungs he nailed to the log are falling off. The builder is forcing people to ride in the muck beside the log instead of allowing the rider to make this line.
This cedar bridge will be here for a long time, at least 5 years. Which is a good life for any wooden structure.
The rungs are close together and big
The bridge itself is suspended out of the muck.
An example of a cedar ladder bridge that is two seasons old in this picture. It's as good as new! Notice that it is built above the mud.
Another VERY important technique is Rock Work.
What this entails is the builder searching in the surroundings for the biggest rocks he can carry, placing them in the path of the rider and making sure they don't move. It is very important that the rocks DON'T MOVE when they are laid down. Any movement will be amplified as riders ride over them and the rocks will be dislodged.
One thing you cannot control is riders riding beside the rocks. They will soon understand that the rocks are there to be ridden and riding the rocks will prevent erosion of the trail.
Another example of rock work. After this drop, rocks have been place for the rider to ride down. This will prevent a mud hole from forming after your front wheel lands below the drop.
If you build a ladder ramp, placing rocks in the landings will also prevent a hole from forming. Here you can see riders avoiding the rocks. A gouge will form here that will puddle in the winter.
This section of trail was an otter chute not two years ago. It was loose, steep and not very fun to ride down. The builder placed rocks on the trail, cribbed by wood he also built his trademark drainage channels. One person did this work! Kudo's to Dean.
A really steep part going down, with a ladder at the bottom that keeps you above the river this area is when it rains.
Looking back up this section of trail
An example of the rocks cribbed with wood.
Deans signature drainage. He digs out a hole, borders the sides with cedar, then nails cedar rungs above the drainage.
Unfortunately, you can see riders avoiding riding over the drainage. If people continue to do this a rut will form here causing water to erode this section. Too bad. |
| Thank you very much | AK Ken
Sep 7, 2002 9:31 PM | | for taking the time to post all these photos. There's an incredible amount of work shown there, and I applaud all those involved.
You've nailed the secret of maintaing dirt roads as well as trails--WATER MANAGEMENT! Standing water: BAD. Properly directed water: GOOD.
Some spectacular rock work there, too. Looks like a lot of fun.
Do you think the people skirting the structures and mucking things up is due to a lack of awareness, or what?
Ken |
| lack of awareness | Brodiegrrl
Sep 7, 2002 10:14 PM | | unfortunately.
They see rock and get freaked out and don't want to ride over them.
People have to learn that rocks are your friends!
The work in the last section was done by one guy working mainly by himself. I didn't take any pictures below this area but he's done amazing work lower down too, lots of nice burmed corners. |
| How can you educate them? | AK Ken
Sep 7, 2002 10:32 PM | | Are the trails on public land that has controlled access like entrance stations or gates where info can be posted? It's a shame to see so much hard work be negated by the unenlightened who would be responsive to education if it were readily available to them.
Or how about you and Lee put on slide shows highlighting some of your great trips, and throw in a little education at no extra charge?
Speaking of bermed turns, I really like the one ladder in your photos that is supered (banked) first one way then the other for the S turn. A caring craftsman did that, although the local drunk walking home that way might not think it was such a great idea.
Ken |
| at trail days | Brodiegrrl
Sep 8, 2002 7:29 AM | | and if they ride those trails in the rain, they'll see where the puddles are and why the rocks are where they are.
We've thought about putting up signs, but its a money and maintenance issue. The land belongs to the district, it would have to be up to them and they would have to maintain the signs. They don't have the budget for it.
I think people fear riding on rocks, but with the travel these days its really not an issue. Even with 3 inches the rocks don't kick back significantly.
Its pretty interesting to see some lines people take. Definately not with the interest of keeping the trail narrow! |
| So true..... | Pat T.®
Sep 8, 2002 10:38 AM | | There are some sections on Espresso that were so wide you could turn my truck around....but that trail is coming into shape nicely. I really enjoy working with Dean, and Pete. Both are top notch builders and know their stuff. Moving rocks sucks but it is an absolute must for trail work. I must have moved 4 tons of rocks for that bridge on Neds just to keep the creek from eroding the banks out from under it.
The one thing I really hate to see is work get done then people still riding around, makes me want to pop 'em up side the head with my pulaski. |
| So help fix it! | Birdman
Sep 9, 2002 5:03 AM | | Speaking as a non-North Shore rider, a few questions. Who does the TM on those trails? Who built them, and are they still around? Do they work with the land manager or are the trails illegally built? Have you tried to contact the land manager or trail-builder?
If you want to preserve the flow of the trail, contact the "owner" of the trail and offer to help out. Not every trail builder (or TM group, for that matter) is as knowledgeable about proper trail construction as you appear to be - maybe they would appreciate some help (and not just constructive criticism, but some labour as well).
FWIW, I manage a TM group in central NJ. I hear lots of "Dude, you shoulda done this", not much "Hey, need a hand with TM some day?".
Just my 2 cents - JMJ |
| So help fix it! | Brodiegrrl
Sep 9, 2002 6:50 AM | | As an active member of the North Shore Mountain Bike Association I have spent one sunday each month working on the trails here.
I have also stopped during rides to fix up some sections. Also, if I see Dean or Peter working I stop and help them.
Plus we are involved with organizing and helping individuals who want to go out and work on these trails. Including the guys doing the work in these pictures.
The reason I took these pictures and presented them as such is because that rung construction is a common mistake. Thanks for pointing out the one criticism I made though.
Thanks for your 2 cents, it wasn't worth it. |
| My apologies | Birdman
Sep 9, 2002 7:56 AM | | I only read the first 1/2 of your post where you were criticizing the trailbuilder's use of widely-spacer small rungs and poor orientation of a ride-along log. I scanned through therest, not realizing that it illustrated proper trailbuilding techniques, giving kudos to those who built them.
I apologize if I came off as some jerk... sorry.
Regarding the issue of keeping riders on the trail, I've seen instances of trailbuilders & maintainers laying deadfall along the trails at those problem areas - is that viable here?
JMJ |
| ok | Brodiegrrl
Sep 9, 2002 8:36 AM | | We do put deadfall in areas to prevent riders from going off trail, then it gets moved, then we put it back and so on and so on... the biggest problem is when they cut switchbacks. |
| Sounds like we have the same problems | Birdman
Sep 9, 2002 9:19 AM | | Here, it's called braiding - riders cutting corners because they are too lazy or inept to actually follow the established trail around a tree or over the log. That and the skidiots, most of whom are really old enough to know better.
Maddening!
When we cover a braid, we use LOTS of leaf litter and branches to totally camoflage the "weasel trail", but out west, you probably have only pine needles & thin branches.
Again, sorry for being such a jerk... JMJ |
| ok | Brodiegrrl
Sep 9, 2002 10:44 AM | | We do put deadfall in areas to prevent riders from going off trail, then it gets moved, then we put it back and so on and so on... the biggest problem is when they cut switchbacks. |
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