|   Rim Shots | hfly
Mar 23, 2003 8:33 PM | | Though I went up the Moab Rim with my fiancee' to hike over to the Endless Caves (one of which is a pitch-black alleyway about 300 feet long that ends in a seemingly bottomless pit), I had my camera along and managed to get some quick but slightly blurry shots of people enjoying the new trails.
Here's an anonymous rider just below the top, which is marked by a long downsloped bridge leading into a drop:
.jpg) |
| Below The Bridge | hfly
Mar 23, 2003 8:35 PM | | A rider below the same bridge seen in the last picture:
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| why would someone build that | Brodiegrrl
Mar 23, 2003 9:43 PM | | there?
That doesn't blend into the scenery at all.
This is blending in, and the bridge is there to allow you to ride over the swamp.
 |
| thats blending in? what you got professional grade beavers? | Jm
Mar 23, 2003 10:04 PM | | err, sorry, that looks very manmade. The only reason it blends in is because you got trees hiding everything and its on the ground. If there were no trees most of "northshore" bridges and ladders would look pretty obtuse eh? |
| Sticking out like a "pile of lumber in the desert" ... [ O ] | Duncan!
Mar 23, 2003 10:25 PM | | aesthetically, natural/local materials look better and they usually last better. There's nothing uglier up here than a pile of pressure-treated lumber in the rainforest. Making local materials work can push the limits of ingenuity ... check out some of Diggers handiwork. You'd never see a kit for this at Home Depot:
 |
| If that bridge wasn't there (in Moab)... | slowride
Mar 24, 2003 4:52 AM | | There'd probably be some guys in Jeeps trying to drive up or down that hill leaving big black tire marks. |
| yup (nm) | Jm
Mar 24, 2003 7:24 AM | | |
| BC Lumber ramps in NM or AZ is obscene; not in BC | TEAMSLOPPY
Mar 23, 2003 10:31 PM | | The northshore has been logged. A bridge of cut lummber blends in a forest of cut trees (they are both cut trees). The lumber to build it is probably from a few miles away.
That ramp off a peak in the greater mohave desert (the southwest of the USA) is obcsene. That lumber probably is from Canada (1000 miles away). |
| Have you ever been to Moab or AZ? (nm) | Fat-tire
Mar 24, 2003 7:56 AM | | |
| matter of opinion, trees don't usually like roller coasters | Jm
Mar 24, 2003 8:07 AM | | I don't see a huge difference, only one group that feels they are justified because they have trees hiding their constructions. |
| it started here for a reason | Brodiegrrl
Mar 24, 2003 9:19 AM | | instead of cutting the trees so you can avoid them, you make is so you can ride over or on them.
its been used in other areas where they don't have as much dead fall or swamps to create this stunt culture.
Also, the best stunts here are made from the dead fall, and not man made materials from the lumbar yard.
right or wrong is a matter of opinion.
A wooden stunt here is as natural as a slickrock huck in Utah. |
| an example | Brodiegrrl
Mar 24, 2003 9:31 AM | | this is an extreme example on an older trail that is highly ridden and a few lines have resulted...
http://www.pinkbike.com/modules/photo/?op=view&image=75713
Would it be better to cut the trees so you can just ride by them? |
| Cut those trees so this doesn't happen | Pete.
Mar 24, 2003 9:48 AM | | Who are these idiots?
 |
| not to mention the foreign element they attract... | Brodiegrrl
Mar 24, 2003 10:03 AM | |  |
| K'endo on some crappy Brodie FR bike - those were the days ... | Duncan!
Mar 24, 2003 12:35 PM | | ok ... emoicon - or whatever those stupid things are called - time
:-)
PS I've met Paul Brodie (Paul DUNCAN Brodie actually), and his bikes are definitely cool. |
| SW freeriders still need to find their soul | Paul B
Mar 24, 2003 10:14 AM | | Seeing wooden stunts being built in the AZ desert says to me that our freeriders/stunt riders haven't yet figured out their own take on what freeriding means to them. They know what freeriding is "supposed" to be by watching videos from the NS, and they want to emulate what they see.
Problem is, the wooden stunts in the NS are there for historic and functional reasons. The really crazy stuff is an extension of that history. Building similar ramps and jumps in the desert is a pose.
What I'd be more excited about is seeing some of the young turks leading out the local freeriding movement (Monk, Phil, Ken, Kyle, others) look to their own natural resources and create a style that is distinct and unique to this place. What does the desert have that the NS doesn't?
Dragging lumber into the desert just shows a lack of imagination and self-confidence. You guys can do better.
Stirring the pot,
p. |
| Here Yeah! | Brodiegrrl
Mar 24, 2003 10:31 AM | | I don't think Juniper would make for a very good ladder bridge but...
I agree with you 100%.
There's nothing wrong at being creative with your environment, but have some pride in your work. |
| its already been said, but rather have people riding off trail? | Jm
Mar 24, 2003 11:01 AM | | and im not talking right next to the trail, but hucking things well off the trail like phoneixken, and in and around moab of course the crypto soil. The moab rim trail and slickrock are two places where you can roam fairly free, but brodiegrrls comments are self defeating, as she states a reason why its "ok" in BC is because they use lumber from the lumber yard, so if we use lumber from the lumber yard its ok? Hey, rocks happen and rocks keep you from riding certian lines, kind of like logs happen and logs keep you from riding certain lines. So they put up a bridge or something. It is only "acceptable" there because you can't see it unless you are up close. I don't think that moab should be come an eyesore filled with bridge stunts, but I think the odd bridge won't hurt either. Bridges are not natural, ANY KIND. I don't care if you make it from plastic, dirt, wood, or rock(unless its those big ones in utah), its NOT NATURAL. It may be made from natural things, hell plastic is made from natural things, at least originally. It just seems to be a big "holier than thou" attitude. And like others have said, at least jeeps wont be putting black marks on THAT piece of slickrock.
BTW, it is my understanding that these new trails are at and around the moab rim trail. A fairly "secluded" and "not visable" section of moab....hmm kind of like the northshore where you can't see the stunts either? You pretty much have to be going down the trail to see anything there, you definitely can't see it from town or around the colorado. Heck, there's a friggin lift going up to the top of it though. It is a really fun area, and any work to imporove it in my opinion is great, since it is pretty secluded and you will never see it unless you ride it. |
| You're missing my point | Paul B
Mar 24, 2003 11:21 AM | | I'm not addressing the naturalness or aesthetics or visibility of a bridge/stunt. I'm talking about the history and local necessity that led up to those stunts. NS-style stunts are a natural extension of a very practical creation: wood platforms over mucky/unrideable ground.
The desert has lots of dry ground. Ramps are unnecessary, so introducing them is pure artifice. Yes, rollercoasters and other deliberately crazy stunts are also artificial, but you can still see their family lineage.
To be clear, I'm talking about AZ freeriding finding its own soul. It's just like music or food or any other creative human endeavor. Remember how silly Tempe garage bands sounded when they all copied Seattle grunge? Rather than digging into their own resources, they saw that grunge was cool and profitable and became wannabes.
Skinnies, bridges, rollercoasters in the desert: They're the grunge of freeriding. Nice in context, phony out of context.
New Jersey Mexican restaurants. White rappers. You get the drill.
I offer this as a creative challenge to the desert freeriders I KNOW can do better: How do you create a form of desert freeriding that is unique to the desert's demands and needs?
p. |
| You mean like this? | Pup
Mar 24, 2003 12:08 PM | | 
photo credit: Nick
Yeah I know Waterfall isnt man-made (is it?) -- but it seems like what yall desert boyz have in piles and heaps and stacks, that we dont have any up here (really-- its all mud and "duff", the ground even springs back when you fall on it)
is ROCKS.
Rocks rocks rocks great huge poky slabby rocks.. seems like yall could do more things with rock pile stunts and invisible lines and spines and etc., than any timber stunt could compare to. I know I cant see the lines you take down /through that stuff, its all invisible to me!
Of course, rocks are a bastige to move around. Well, no pain..
P
so sad didnt make it this year |
| A good start, plus... | Paul B
Mar 24, 2003 12:47 PM | | ...packaging.
It occurs to me the reason NS-style stunts are so popular and replicated is because they're so well documented. Gorgeous, misty, backlit photos of riders high in the trees on bridges fill Bike Magazine calendars. Half or more of the mountain biking videos that come out every year are full of similar imagery. Is it really any wonder where impressionable freeriders get their ideas?
Red Bull Rampage is an excellent start -- certainly the most visible desert-style freeriding out there. AZ's Black Hat Productions is trying to crack that nut, too, with a freeride video. The Bootlet Canyon races are also starting to show up on film.
But desert freeriding needs to appear in magazines, calendars, posters, video games, ads, DVDs -- everywhere the bridges and such appear.
p. |
| actually the one I ride is to the right of the rider | Jm
Mar 24, 2003 1:01 PM | | and it looks like nothing more than a pile of rocks like you say. Look at the guys with the blue jerseys at the top, and look at the lowest one, he is on the "line" which goes from there down to the big rock about center at the very bottom of the picture.
On the other hand, all of that can be rolled. I KNOW there are places in BC where you can't roll, its drop or die. |
| you need to ride the Rim trail with some DHers | Jm
Mar 24, 2003 12:58 PM | | to appreciate it I guess. A few bridges here and there in that particular part are not going to hurt anyone or anything, and make it more ridable. People seem to have the idea that you can just ride off a rock. That is true, but hypocritical if you ever ride more than just one trail. There are a few places though were a little bridge make something MUCH more ridable, and I am sure this is the kind of work they have done up there. I have been up there and there are a few places that with a little cap or bridge, you won't necessarily die like you would before. It will never be the mainstay of our "riding" and I think we know this, but people are over-reacting like crazy and seem to think that just because their's is hidden, that its perfectly ok. The east coast gets it's share of mud, as well as the south, etc, and they don't have bridges everywhere. That doesn't mean that the bridges are a bad thing in the north shore, but common, there are so many other places that are continually wet/boggy most of the year too.
"I offer this as a creative challenge to the desert freeriders I KNOW can do better: How do you create a form of desert freeriding that is unique to the desert's demands and needs? "
A 60lb bike. Because if AZ freeriding is going to be just hucking off of rocks, instead of the occasional bridge gapping something leading to a nice "roller" or a smaller drop, or drop to a transition, you are going to need a 60lb bike for those drops to solid rock, which constitute most of what would be considered "freeriding" in moab or sedona. At least out at bartletts, rim trail, some stuff on porc rim, others, a few sessioning areas in sedona. |
| since you obviously didn't read what I wrote | Brodiegrrl
Mar 24, 2003 12:38 PM | | about lumber, this is what I said
"Also, the best stunts here are made from the dead fall, and not man made materials from the lumbar yard. "
So its clear to you I said NOT man made materials from the lumbar yard.
Have you even ridden here? |
| you said "the best stunts" indicating that | Jm
Mar 24, 2003 12:51 PM | | that there still are stunts made from regular lumber materials. Anyway, we got plenty of dead-fall here, in fact most of our "forrest" is dead fall(just ask Paul B). We'd be glad to donate it to Moab to make it "right". |
| Lumber structures in the forest are generally an eyesore .... | Duncan!
Mar 24, 2003 1:09 PM | | and hikers and property owners are often quick to complain about it, which just adds to that whole hiker-biker "thang". Many people venture into the forest precisely to get away from that kinda stuff. D. |
| You mean like... | Pirate Girl
Mar 24, 2003 11:02 AM | | Bridges and ramps built out of palo verde and mesquite winding over the cholla patches? Ewww...if you bail off the bridge, that would suck.
An exception would be Fantasy Island. There's SO much junk out there from years of wildcat dumping that one could build some cool stunts out of the trash piled out there. Probably wouldn't work though. The "Over/Under" was originally a "Jump or Die" and kept getting sabotaged and filled in by people that felt it was too "unsafe." They'd probably take apart any stunts for the same reason.
I still want an Ewok-style playground in my front yard. That would probably send the HOA over the edge, and we're already not one of their favorite lots. More "friendly reminder" notes comin' my way ;-)
P-) |
| Yabbut... | Paul B
Mar 24, 2003 6:45 PM | | You'd never see an Ewok playground on Tatooine. You live on Tatooine, baby -- I'll bet those Tusken Raiders have all kinds of sick lines out there 'round old Ben Kenobi's place.
Dear Lord, I am SUCH a Star Wars geek.
Fantasy Island is a really good example of trail design that taps into the soul of the place. Some of it is junky and ugly, but that's okay because it's a junky, ugly place. But the flow is good and you get a clear vibe.
Freeriders and stunt builders would have to make it clear that not every stunt is meant to be rideable by every rider. Riders also need to be educated that some stuff is just unsafe, and that sanitization is prohibited. Maybe two sets of signs -- one saying "This is a crazy hard trail, ride at your own risk" and another one saying "Do not alter the trail"?
Dunno; still brainstorming.
(Probably) see you next Saturday @ the Tucson swap meet,
p.
p.s. e me re. swap when you get a chance |
| that stuff is fun to play on Paul | Monk
Mar 24, 2003 2:44 PM | | Wooden skinnies and ladder drops are fun to play on Paul. It's kinda like building dirt jumps...they create a sensation and build a certain skill...as trail riding does also.
They increase balance as well. They also give us something to practice on so when given the chance to go to the N.S. and play on trails where these stunts exist, naturally and un-naturally, we can ride the terrain better and have more fun. Don't underestimate the impact that the NS has had on the evolution of mountain bikes and bikers.
I don't think the intentions are to build stunts and have the SW turn into the next stunt mecca/"freeride" destination...more playing and training areas where we can hone our skills to be on par to the riding that is done in different parts of the world. It is also a way to gauge our skill I guess...
I had an interesting conversation about this with a pioneer of "freeriding" over the weekend while in Boulder City. We were discussing the ethics of wooden stunts in a desert as well as the cool things you can do with different sized rocks when building a line...it's pretty amazing.
The desert offers many things that a rain forest does not. Personally I love it...It is really cool to see what one can do when given the chance to build a legitimate trail that would push the abilities of man and the technology of today's bikes like the awesome network of BC trails.
Yes Paul...It could be done naturally in the desert...no one around here has been able to successfully do it yet...alot of feathers get ruffled by the poeple who seem to be letting this sport stagnate.
Monk
we can talk about the "soul" part later ;) |
| Maybe I'm not being clear enough | Paul B
Mar 24, 2003 3:56 PM | | Or maybe everyone's just a little quick to defend their bridges. :-)
I'm not underestimating the impact the BC scene has had on freeriding -- it's all too apparent. But I'm still interested to see what some creativity, freshness, and pride of place out of AZ and the rest of the SW could bring to the sport/scene.
Rather than going on and on about NS this and NS that, wouldn't it be cool to be at the forefront of a riding movement where people talk about bikes specifically built for that crazy-ass freeriding coming out of AZ?
Maybe it's a different kind of stunt. Maybe it's a different kind of bike. Maybe it's a new way of thinking about trail building.
I don't have the answers. But I think the question needs to be asked.
And what's this? "A lot of feathers get ruffled by the people who seem to be letting this sport stagnate." I don't follow. Nobody's letting this sport stagnate except the ones doing it. It's really up to the young guys out front -- like you and your crew -- to keep stirring the pot and keeping it fresh.
p. |
| please clarify | Monk
Mar 24, 2003 4:39 PM | | I think I get what you're saying Paul. You think we need to step-it-up. You need more progressive stuff to right about...I get it ;)
We are progressing incredibly in our own right though. We don't ride off trail anymore and we have found ways to passify our desire to have narlier trails in our area. We go to the skateparks now...we go race on the weekends...we are finding new areas to go urban riding where the cops won't beat us down. We dream about our own spot to build a terrain park and we have started putting money away into our piggybanks to help buy that area. But that's at least a couple years away :)
We would love to have an area of land that we could build on legally...just understand that it is a slow process in this area with all the land sensitivity and such. But we are heading down that road (any help is appreciated BTW). We still envision someday having even nastier trails on SoMo...imagine the trail that could be built up there with todays standards of what mountain bikers can do? It would probably be one of the scariest trails in the country! I see the way people look at the waterfall! But it is alot of work for 5 "Saguaro Soul Riders"...so it's definately going to take some time.
Monk (can't wait to go back up to BC this summer)
NS NS NS
BC and one more BC for good measure |
| Arrgh you found me out ;-) | Paul B
Mar 24, 2003 4:54 PM | | Yes, this is all a complex ploy to be the first guy in line, present at the creation, when a new, unique, novel approach to freeriding is born here. So sue me.
Imagine the day when impressionable young bunners everywhere gather 'round the DVD player, aspiring to tackle AZ-style freeriding.
p. |
| bunner | Monk
Mar 24, 2003 5:04 PM | | I just wanna ride my bike to tell you the truth. Hey...that'd be a new style these days...
Alex would be at the forefront of that if you ask me. That guy is my idol. You shoulda seen him at boulder city over the weekend. He was passin mofo's on full suspension bikes that started a minute before him!...that's what the little bunners should aspire to be like. I took a ton of pictures and we got some sick video footage too!
Monk |
| reclamation [o] | Titan
Mar 24, 2003 7:04 AM | | A couple more years into the abandonment, and you'll never know this stuff was there.
 |
| I'm glad you understand | Brodiegrrl
Mar 24, 2003 9:10 AM | | why it works in a rain forest and not in other areas such as the desert. |
| horrible eyesore | aosty
Mar 24, 2003 12:03 AM | | A horrible eyesore, in my opinion. In AZ/UT/etc., lumber bridges really stick out and just plain fusks up the scenery.
On a brighter note, Hfly... lovely pix as usual :) ...aside from the lumber. |
| Firewood? Nm | Jrm
Mar 24, 2003 7:27 AM | | |
| It's Been Fun... | hfly
Mar 24, 2003 8:00 AM | | ...to read these reactions to the wooden contraption set in the slickrock. The one thing I've noted about the trails on The Rim that involve these bridges is that the bridges themselves don't impart anything unique to the flow of the ride. I rode over several of them and all I could think was that it was really no different than riding over boulders (though the trailbuilding required a lot more work). Isn't it curious and unfortunate (in some ways) how man-made bridges have become some sort of freeriding icon? Obviously the BC scene relies on such contraptions (made of abundant downfall) to foster travel through thick, wet forest. I think the two trailbuilders up on Moab Rim were experimenting around with boulder-bridge fusion to see what would happen (it's on private land). I agree that the bridges seem somewhat extraneous and contrived, though there a lot of people riding up there who seem to dig them. Again, I think what you see is an experimental attempt to co-opt the iconic power of wooden contraptions, but since they are so displaced from their natural element, the effect flops. That's not to take away from the two trailbuilders, who have done some remarkable terrain work on the Rim and have started to receive their due kudos.
I hope you got my email yesterday, BG. Any ride we do when you are here will be natural terrain stuff. :o) All of my routing is proudly stealth.
hfly |
| got it | Brodiegrrl
Mar 24, 2003 10:04 AM | | just replied.
I had to discuss with gary...
good thing you don't have a lot of rain! It makes the wood slippery... |
| <i>"...an experimental attempt to co-opt the iconic power of..."</i> | Pup
Mar 24, 2003 10:13 AM | | hah, how cool is that. Nice one Fly. Nice pics too.
P |
| good for moab | J.D.
Mar 24, 2003 9:46 AM | | Yes, I said it.
Why?
It keeps "them" concentrated instead of running all over the place and damaging the cryptogamic soil.
Sure, it's fugly and intrusive.
A neccessary evil to protect sensitive outlying areas.
How could Tim take beautiful pictures of pristine locations if the thundering herd wrecked them?
I like seeing green amongst the rocks. Just sand dunes would be much less beautiful. |
| it is private land | Brodiegrrl
Mar 24, 2003 10:00 AM | | its good to keep it in one area... |
| I knew | J.D.
Mar 24, 2003 10:18 AM | | you would comprende, Sharon. When are we going to see youse twose down here again? BTW, I bought a new truck (I'll never lease again) and am trying to fanagle some time in August to make it up there this year. Nothing firm yet. |
| yes | Brodiegrrl
Mar 24, 2003 10:28 AM | | we'll be at the festival and have been talking to Kevin about riding on Sunday and Monday.
A new truck! But the old one was so you! :-)
I told kevin anytime in August is good, we're not planning to go away.
I don't have your email, email me - baderATalumniDOTsfuDOTca |
| cunning stunts... | airwreck
Mar 25, 2003 11:15 PM | | is the best methodology.
just be careful if you try and say it too fast. |
| Random Panorama | hfly
Mar 23, 2003 8:40 PM | | This is the view from near the Endless Caves. My fiancee' is visible sitting in the far, upper right corner of this picture taking in the view. The Portal Trail is in the far left portion of the picture:
 |
| Bring On The River | hfly
Mar 23, 2003 8:45 PM | | Final shot. A tiny rider is visible disappearing over the edge toward a widewild vision of river.
Good rides to everyone!
hfly
moabdublab AT citlink DOT net
 |
| The pics are really helping... | RLinNH
Mar 24, 2003 6:09 AM | | These pics are really helping my cabin fever out. ;-) Nice pics. Don't have any bridges over here, but we do have some nice trails also. I can't wait until they dry up so I can get some miles in. |
| Can't win! | Poppa-D
Mar 25, 2003 12:28 PM | | Okay, I am not sure why I am sticking my hand in this because every time I do, I pull back a bloody stump. But . . .
This thread is discussing the pros and cons of "freeriding" natural terrain vs man-made stunts and when/why each are appropriate. I get the impression that generally speaking most of you don't think wooden stunts are the best "addition" to the desert terrain. So there is a strike against man-made stunts. Some of you suggested moving rocks and utilizing the natural rock and boulder formations to "freeride" on. But this is not feasible. For one thing the moment you step off-trail you become a very very bad person (Bad freerider! Bad!). For another thing, you can't build natural stunts on the existing trails because they are multi-use trails (bikers, equestrians, and hikers). So there is a strike against natural stunts. My challenge to you that don't believe the SW or AZ should have wooden stunts but rather rock stunts, is to suggest a location that the natural terrain can be modified and I won't be cursed to hell for being off-trail. I can't seem to find a place where this can be done without pissing everyone off. |
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