|   A letter for all you SUV fans to read... | Farewell Passion
Jan 19, 2004 5:03 AM | | Pulled this off another board. I know most people don't want to hear any of this, so I hope not to offend anyone, that is not the intent. But I just thought it would be some good parting words for this board. The SUV reference is near the end.
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Letter To The Editor:
My concern is what we, as a society, are leaving for our children. In 2003, with four barrels of crude oil used for every one discovered, projection is that by 2010, ten barrels will be used for every one barrel discovered...and by 2015 twenty barrels used...and on and on further depletion of the world's oil reserves is projected. This is the untold threat of "peak oil" (as well as peak drinkable water) facing all world consumers. The question is, now what? The shit has hit the fan for Third World citizens who watch as corporate America (thats us) takes out the remaining axis-of-oil nations to fuel our cars, trucks,homes and industries. We as capable, intelligent world
citizens wave the banner for war completely in denial of the slaughter and massacre which these illegal wars-for-oil usher forth. Our own self-indulgence keeps us asleep at work, in our churches and in our homes...asleep to the autrocities of our own making.
North Americans are less than 5% of the world's population consuming more than 35% of the world's natural resources. Presently, corporate
trans-nationals are also buying up this planet's water supplies. BC's clean fresh water is not exempt.
Unfortunately, trans-national forest giants also love our raw logs fuelling their Washington state lumber mills, but care less for BC communities supported by BC lumber mills. So much so, that BC owned lumber mills are being bankrupted by these same trans-nationals corporations who lobby for American gov't 27% tariff charges on our exported milled lumber products...while our government offers up on an international platter the fruit of BC's raw timber resources. Say "so long" to communities across this province supported by the likes of Rick Doman's lumber mills. These also are autrocities of our own making.
Our North American economy is also fueled by the war machine (just take a look at present employment statistics)...yet the radio-active fallout from depleted uranium tipped missles is not only killing our own soldiers, but leaving dangerous radio-active dust scattered throughout the Middle Eastern countryside (to be carried by global winds and tides across the planet).
I would say "a shift of priorities is vital" for us North Americans caught in the Big Lie (the lie that this kind of environmentally destructive activity, politely called consumerism or globalization, can continue to sustain the human species).
So, what are each of us willing to give up? Shall we withdraw our support from this planetary cancer called 'economic growth'. We have a short term high from the spoils of war and our gluttonous appetite for more/more/more...a fancy house, sharp clothes, new SUV, and mutual funds in the bank. However, this fossil-fuelled consumer train
is headed for a wall of bedrock bereft of oil and drinkable water at two hundred and fifty miles per hour...I would suggest it is time to somehow stop the train, what are your suggestions?
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And i leave you with a quote from Sir Alex Fraser Tytler, a Scottish Jurist and historian...
"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largess of the public treasury. From that time on the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury, with the results that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world's great civilizations has been 200 years. These nations have progressed through this sequence: from bondage to spiritual faith, from spiritual faith to great courage; from courage to liberty, from liberty to abundance; from abundance to selfishness; from selfishness to complacency; from complacency to apathy;
from apathy to dependentcy; from dependentcy back again to bondage." |
| Yawn... Another whining liberal with a keyboard! | nice-tooth
Jan 19, 2004 9:43 AM | | |
| ignore the problem and it will go away, right? | Farewell Passion
Jan 19, 2004 10:04 AM | | So, do you have a replacement for oil? You'll be a rich man if you do, but there is no replacement anywhere on the horizon. Thats why we gotta use war to secure whats left of the stuff, all so we can continue to drive our SUV's. |
| how do you propose he is a liberal? | tiny tim
Jan 19, 2004 11:11 AM | | Please tell me what things he said that are liberal?
I agree with him completely, and I am a pretty hard-fast conservative.
The real problem is that most people who think they are conservative are not. George Bush is NOT a conservative. Just look at his spending and deficit.....
elf |
| how do you propose he is a liberal? | Slick
Jan 19, 2004 11:21 AM | | elf?? environmental liberation front? Gonna go smash some SUV windows in new car lots and burn down new construction sites..eh? |
| No need to stereotype... | Goodbye Passion
Jan 19, 2004 12:02 PM | | I'm not violent, and I never intend to be. It doesn't get your point across. Unfortunately, years of industrial growth, prosperity, and the accompanying overindulgence has created a culture that won't accept the fact that oil is their crack cocaine, and they're doing nothing to kick the habit. This coke is different however, it runs out, and the withdrawl aint gonna be pretty. |
| Um... | Slick
Jan 19, 2004 12:15 PM | | Who's stereotyping here? Tim signed it "elf" and "elf" is the acronym for the famous environmental terrorist group. Perhaps you're just paranoid.
So, are you suggesting a "Mad Max" scenario? Do you think currency will become gas, ammuniton and guns?
Dang, I just was out mowing my lawn (I know..I know..I should have hired illegals from El Salvador to do it) and I let the Briggs & Stratton run while I was edging my lawn, waisting gas and polluting the environment. Oh my God, I even sprayed some weeds with Round Up. I hope I don't go to Hell for that one! |
| Just because you don't like what was written, how about | r
Jan 19, 2004 12:09 PM | | How about "another whining poster...." and leave it at that or are you just another whining conservative.
How do you know the poster is a liberal. He may not even be British.(That comment may be over your head) |
| You're Right! | Slick
Jan 19, 2004 9:45 AM | | We should give up all those things we have obtained through all of our lust for greed....
And go back to the simple ways and I'm sure our lives will be simpler...
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| So, is oil renewable? | Farewell Passion
Jan 19, 2004 9:59 AM | | If not, what happens when demand far exceeds supply? And what happens when its all gone? This could be right around the corner. Do a little research and you'll find out. Running out won't be the real problem however, all the wars securing whats left of the black gold will be the real problems. All so we can retain our more-more-more lifestyle.
And by the way, I never said we had to return to life the way it was in that 2nd picture, but a nice happy medium between the lifestyles shown in those two pics would ensure that our kids have a life as comfortable as ours. A 10 year old kid will be 35 in the year 2029. Do you think they will have oil then? Not at the rate the industrialized world is using it up, and it only seems to be getting worse. And last I checked there is nothing to replace it, and its probably too late for that.
Study some history. Wars in the past have been waged to control natural resources, and you can bet the big energy users of today will be duking it out soon just so they can survive. First stop, Afghanistan...whoops, didn't find enough oil in the Caspian, now its time to invade Iraq. |
| Comon..Clary... | Slick
Jan 19, 2004 10:41 AM | | Do you really think you'll change the world? Go have a little whine with that cheese... |
| You wrote black gold | AndyE
Jan 20, 2004 10:07 AM | | I can't believe you actually called oil black gold. I agree that there is no need to super size everything, nor is there any reason for a soccer mom to have a brand new Tahoe so she can look trendy getting Bergerking, but if you really believe that every thing that the U.S is doing is to drain the Middle east of it's oil you really are as out of it as your black gold comment.
And where is the MTB content? |
| Hmmmm.... | Goodbye Passion
Jan 20, 2004 11:01 AM | | Take a peak at where our military is on the move. First it was Afghanistan for the oil that was supposed to be in the Caspian, that place didn't work out, so they went after Iraq. Is it strange that you don't hear much about Afghanistan anymore? Maybe because its not strategically important anymore. We now have troops in Iraq and Saudi Arabia, where some of the largest reserves are located. Makes you wonder doesn't it? |
| Hmmmm.... | AndyE
Jan 20, 2004 1:15 PM | | Just like all the free oil we got from Kuwait, right. Was the Taliban a cruel authority yes, is saddam a vicious murdering tyrant, absolutely. Do I think that there is a hidden agenda for us to be over there? If I didn't I would be an idiot. If it is for oil, it isn't to get their oil, but to justify opening up Alaska to drilling. If it is too risky to get it from the middle east then we have no choice, but to open new domestic sources. It would be nice to pull all of the troops out of the middle east, but that is not possible. |
| Alaska? | Goodbye Passion
Jan 20, 2004 3:40 PM | | Alaska has no where near the oil that the middle east has. ANWR would only supply us for a short time. The Middle East is the mother load, nothing else comes close. Take a look at this chart and you'll see why (you can add the missing Iraq to the top 3 on the chart)...
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/ene_oil_res
No wonder our military is all over the middle east. Bet you didn't know that our bases in Saudi Arabia are located just between the largest oil field in the world (the Ghawar) and the border of Iraq. How convenient. And now we occupy Iraq, another country with huge amounts of oil.
Gets you thinking doesn't it. War on terror? I kinda wonder. |
| I agree Somewhat... | Marcus75
Jan 19, 2004 9:53 AM | | about the negative consequences of "economic growth" (its exploits on our natural reasources). I think the real problem lies in our exploding population (We are the most destructive creatures on the planet)!
So our Prez speech on "space exploration" is beginning to make more sense now?
Totally disagree with the scotish dude! I think the Roman empire and the ancient Chinese civilization lasted far more than 200 years!
PS: I don't drive a SUV. I drive a Honda Civic and don't recall paying more than $20 to fill up the gas tank. YOU ARE WASTING YOUR MONEY IF YOU BUY A SUV! |
| What's the deal with slamming SUV's???? | nice-tooth
Jan 19, 2004 10:37 AM | | Its a vehicle, get over it! Mine gets 18.5 mpg (city) and 22.5 (Hwy). Many sports cars and pick ups can't make that claim. The point is it doesn't matter, the damn thing suits my needs. It carts me and my family around, when I make large purchases I'm free from worrying about how I'm going to get the thing delivered to my house and yes it works great to carry Mountain Bikes! If this is my only vice in life then shoot me. I understand your point about everyone doing their part to improve our planet and securing a future for our kids but making blanket statements telling us all to rid ourselves of our SUV's is impractical and a waste of our time. Do you think because I read your post that I'm going to leave right now and sell my car? Really! Or was your intent to just try to stir up some guilt for a purchase that I worked long and hard for? If that was your intent then again you wasted your time as your opinion means nothing to me. The world is not a perfect place, technology will always fill the needs we have, if not we will adapt. There is already alternative methods to fossil fuels, the reason your not using them is because there isn't a need. There are enough fuel reserves to last us for the immediate future and once the need to switch to an alternate arises, believe me we will! In the mean time why not challenge your efforts into something more positive like helping your fellow humans in a more direct way. Get off your soapbox and do something. When was the last time you spent the afternoon cleaning up one of your local streets, or a neighborhood creek that's full of trash. Have you ever helped with the homeless or delivered meals to the indigent. When was the last time you walked out of your house and looked to do anything in your power to make the people you came in contact feel good. It doesn't take much but we often are too busy to think about what really counts. My challenge to you is forget the SUV's, focus on the people, the rest will fall into place. Now stop being a pest and go tell someone you LOVE them Damn It! |
| You make good points... | Goodbye Passion
Jan 19, 2004 10:49 AM | | I don't mean to target SUV's specifically, that is just an example. If you need one, that is fine, use it. I'm more talking about the ones that don't really need one, they just have one because they are the in thing (you know who you are).
As I stated, we need a culture change, and getting off SUV's is a start. There are many other things that can be done. I don't think most people are willing to make the sacrifice though, look at the defensiveness just about SUV's. Most people don't even realize there is an impending oil shortage, or atleast they don't want to think about it. That is part of the problem.
It all starts with awareness. Don't look for the government to do it, they are busy shoring up resources to ensure our economy can be sustained in the short term. |
| re: A letter for all you SUV fans to read... | PuddingMan
Jan 19, 2004 11:14 AM | | What the F does this have to do with MTBing. Well I want to get on my soapbox since this is an open forum now. I hate it when I'm at the gas pump filling up my big Ol SUV and there is no pudding. I want self serve pudding at the pump and I don't want to pay an arm and a leg for it. And to you Mr. enthusiastic about current events, I say good day! |
| a couple of issues... | javaride
Jan 19, 2004 11:39 AM | | First of all, do your research before whining to the rest of us. I've worked in the automtive industry for over fifteen years. It has been continually stated that we need to curtail the automotive population's use of fossil fuels due to the deminishing supply, when in reality, according to many studies, the automobile is far from the biggest culprit of this crime. Secondly, why are you coming to a mountain bike web site to gripe about SUV's with an article that barely even sites them anyway? Do you personally have an axe to grind??? And if you are so truly concerned about the situation why don't you call/write your congressman etc. or start a web site or organization to combat the problem? Not that I'm opposed to finding alternative fuels or conserving our limited natural resources, it just seems as though you're only here to "stir the pot", rather than to actually accomplish anything. |
| "automobile is far from the biggest culprit " | Goodbye Passion
Jan 19, 2004 11:53 AM | | So, I guess that means the auto industry is exempt from doing anything to IMPROVE the situation, since they aren't the BIGGEST culprit. I wouldn't expect any more from someone in the auto industry where horsepower sells.
This'll make it bike related...
Bicycle No Longer King of the Road in China
By Philip P. Pan, The Washington Post,
http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/55/254.html
An exerpt that the auto industry will love, but at the same time will cause oil depletion to accellerate...
"Many Chinese agree. A recent survey in 20 cities by the Association of Chinese Customers found a third of urban families plan to buy a car within five years. Another study found most people consider knowing how to drive a car to be one of three basic and necessary skills in modern Chinese society, along with the ability to speak English and use a computer. Such attitudes alarm environmentalists. They warn that if the percentage of the population owning cars in China reaches Western levels, there would be more automobiles here than in the rest of the world combined. Air pollution in many Chinese cities is already several times above World Health Organization standards. It, and cigarette smoking, make lung disease the leading cause of death in China. " |
| put your money where your mouth is | dir-T
Jan 19, 2004 12:11 PM | | electric / hybrid cars ARE available but they account for only a small percentage of those sold. Even with the constant brainwashing by advertisers and the "gotta keep up with the Jones'" syndrome, people ultimately make their own decisions about transportation. Why should the car industry be villified because consumers haven't been buying more environmentally sensitive cars? How can auto-makers "improve" the situation when trying to do so at this point in time would cause them to go bankrupt? |
| ABSOLUTLEY!!!!!!! | javaride
Jan 19, 2004 12:22 PM | | If I have learned nothing else thus far in my life, the car buisness is all about making money, "my friend", and if people would buy electric cars, I GUARANTEE!! you, I would have them on my lot!!! I too, would like to know if you walk the walk, or just talk the talk. |
| Why don't they.... | Goodbye Passion
Jan 19, 2004 1:00 PM | | Why don't they advertise more electric cars so the public is aware of them? All I see are the ads for Hummers driving over things, Jeeps driving through mountains, WRX's racing around corners, etc. Clearly, they push those vehicles. If they want to sell more electric cars, then advertise them!!
And how about giving some tax breaks. There is one for hybrids, but it offers no where near the savings of the little loophole that many of our SUV drivers use when they say they "use them for business purposes". |
| Why don't they.... | javaride
Jan 19, 2004 1:50 PM | | Clearly you are here to do nothing more than argue. They have advertised them, they have test marketed them, they have even given away a large number of them. I suppose if you were truly interested in your cause, instead of causing trouble, you would have already known that. You're rebuttle's are weak at best, lacking any factual information, merely opinion, which you are entitled to. Just stop stirring the pot for the entertainment. |
| Well... | Goodbye Passion
Jan 19, 2004 1:58 PM | | I really haven't seen any TV commercials for any of the hybrid vehicles, honest. And at the auto show I recently attended, Hybrids got their little corner, while the SUV's and trucks got the main stage. The H2 display was huge. I even got to see the car co's roll out a few of their new 500hp concept vehicles, but nary a hybrid. Toyota was their pushing their new efforts in NASCAR, as was Dodge. Its not hard to notice this stuff. |
| Well... | javaride
Jan 19, 2004 2:00 PM | | As I said before, while you were too buisy sensationalizing like an anchor man, they can only build what the public demands, or go out of buisness, (economics 101), if the public you so emphatically speak of were so eager to buy alternative vehicles, I'm sure the 500hp H2 would've been in the little corner booth while everyone tripped over extension cords leading to environmentally friendly vehicles. Again I ask, do you walk the walk... or are you just another hypocrite waving a flag from your keybnoard |
| Well... | Goodbye Passion
Jan 19, 2004 2:31 PM | | I drive a car that gets 40 mpg, I recycle, I own a small home which is only about 10 miles from work, I don't live extravagently, etc. I think I do my part. Sure, I could do more, and I strive too. But I see the problem is that the majority of Americans do not do as I do. In fact, I get scoffed at by friends and siblings who have given in to consumerism to the nth degree. Its sometimes tough for me to stand my ground, but my parents (grew up during the depression) taught me well. We are a nation of excesses and consumerism. We're all about more more more more. You can only do that for so long when you have finite resources. |
| Well... | javaride
Jan 19, 2004 3:12 PM | | So are you still talking about fossil fuels and SUV's... or have we moved on to the moral decay of a nation... I'm not sure where we're going now... maybe mountain bikes would be a great topic... |
| Well... | Slick
Jan 19, 2004 3:36 PM | | By your standards, I do live extravagantly. I have a big, wonderful house in an exclusive neighborhood. My wife drives a big BMW and I drive a real nice Ford F-150 with all the frills. You know what?? I love it! I've lived in trailers, shacks and even my van in a KOA campground when I was groovey and cool like you. I worked hard to get here and I'm staying.
Cheers,
Slick, A consumer to the nth degree |
| Have kids? | Goodbye Passion
Jan 20, 2004 3:19 AM | | Have kids? You and people like yourself are why they won't have fossile fuels, and unfortunately unless replacements are found soon, they will not be as "well off" as you. Just think for a minute what it would be like without oil, or very expensive oil. Its used in everything. You don't think that will have a negative impact on a civilization absolutely dependent on it?
You'll be gone though, so who cares, right?
And its a wonder why much of the middle east hates us. Our government rapes and pilages their people so we have access to their cheap oil and therefore can continue to live our extravagent lifestyles.
"The average age of the world's great civilizations has been 200 years. These nations have progressed through this sequence: from bondage to spiritual faith, from spiritual faith to great courage; from courage to liberty, from liberty to abundance; from abundance to selfishness; from selfishness to complacency; from complacency to apathy; from apathy to dependentcy; from dependentcy back again to bondage."
|
| There will always be... | Slick
Jan 20, 2004 3:51 AM | | the "haves" and the "have nots", and there will always be whiners like you! |
| Sure, but... | Head Whiner
Jan 20, 2004 5:37 AM | | The "haves" are using up a non-renewable resource at such a feverish pace that even the "haves" are going to be screwed. I wouldn't be "whining" about it if we had 500 more years of oil, but we might only have 20, and seeing as there is no forseeable replacement, and we are so addicted to the stuff (like crack), its kinda scary, especially for our kids. They are the ones that will pay the ultimate price. But thats fine if you are happy with your lavish lifestyle, you'll be long gone and won't see the problems you've created. |
| Eve of Destruction... | Barry McGuire
Jan 20, 2004 6:06 AM | | "Can't you understand what I'm tryin' to say..can't you feel the fears I'm feelin' today...don't you know, we're on the Eve of Destruction.."
Seems to be a re-occuring theme....
I hope you're not expecting an apology for my successful life..you won't get one. Maybe in 40 years they'll be having the same argument and someone will be quoting you in jest.
Adios, Muchacho, Recuerdos a todos! |
| What constitutes a successful life? | Goodbye Passion
Jan 20, 2004 6:37 AM | | Big house? Big truck? Fast car? Lots of toys? Ahhhh, the American Way. I guess its all about consumption aint it...thats what makes you successful. Get a bigger house than thy neighbor, get a faster car than your friend, yadda yadda yaddda.
Good stuff. You teach your children well. |
| What constitutes a successful life? | javaride
Jan 20, 2004 6:46 AM | | I wish I had some explosives to blow that box out from under you!! You must be closely related to GOD to be so judgemnetal!! |
| You tell me.... | Slick
Jan 20, 2004 7:29 AM | | I was raised in shack with a dirt floor in the Sacramento Valley. My dad worked in a prune dehydrator and my mom, sisters and me had to pick prunes, peaches and pears to help out. Fortunately, my parents realized I had some potential and stayed in the same town. From there I was able to get an athletic scholarship and get an education.
I taught special ed. for 25 years working with the lowest functioning of the severely handicapped. I coached Special Olympic teams as well as regular high school sports.
Now, I'm older, much older, (still riding too) and I've moved on. Lecture me when you've done something with your life other than bitch about those who've got more because they worked for it! Personally, I think I've done pretty good.
By the way, what have you done? |
| Whatever bike your riding..sell it. | Crash_FLMB
Jan 21, 2004 10:50 AM | | Because you need lube for the chain, shock and fork. Unless you have some kind of new fancy bike w/o those things. Buy a nice pair of running shoes for $150.00 and start jogging everywhere. But wait, those shoes are made by poor 10 year olds who only get paid 5 cents an hour. So you can't buy those either. And those 5 cents are HUGE in their country.
So it looks like you either a consumer or you die. Your choice.
I prefer to ride one of my three nice bikes. All are overlubed as I like to waste a lot. Watch it drip onto the ground as I'm working on my bike. I like to drive my F-150 just to drive it. No where to go, just to waste gas. My wife likes to drive her Volvo for no good reason. So we're on the consumer side. |
| Sure, but... | javaride
Jan 20, 2004 6:44 AM | | Well, I guess I'll have to partially agree with you about the kids issue, I have three. Hell it's scary sending them to school anymore, one, or several of them could be shot and never come home again. I guess I just choose not to live my life in fear, but to live life to the fullest, as is best fit for me. I ride mountain bikes every chance I get, I spend as much time with those kids as I can, I cut my own firewood and heat my entire house with it all winter long. I guess my point is that these are issues much larger, with so many far reaching connections to so many other things that are way beyond your grasp, you might as well be trying to legalize murder. Again I say, if you feel so passionate about it, your in the wrong forum. Have you actually said any of this to anyone outside your computer? What actions have you taken to effect other peoples lives and the situation as a whole other than to rant from your keyboard? Quit picking on our great country and have some faith that with all our technology we will get through and past this, to become a more ecologically minded nation and world, so that our childrens children for ages to come will be able to enjoy the same and even more security and comfort, and conveniences, without depleting the worlds natural resources any further. I, for one, would like to think that progress is just that... moving forward. Mistakes have been made throughout the history of the world and yet we are still here. Truly NO ONE knows when the oil may run out. They are all educated guesses. From the time I was a child I've heard we were suppose to run out. Several estimated times have come and gone. When we do, and I truly hope we don't, but we will find another way, as we always have. Wow, I'm sorry!! Didn't mean to go on... I need to go ride now!!! |
| SUV are Big Profit Margin Items! | Marcus75
Jan 19, 2004 2:50 PM | | SUV's aren't going away for sure because they are highly profitable. (think about it, SUV's are technologically same as passager cars w/ bigger engines and frames so you have bigger price points)!
The reason why hybrids hasn't really taken off is that they are inferior to the good ole gass guzzlers, if the automakers seriously invest their time and energy to make this a comparable alternative than we'll see more of these on the road. |
| I agree completely! | dir-T
Jan 19, 2004 12:05 PM | | If he feels this strongly he should be writting his congressman and telling us instead about what a great bike commute he had this morning.
I'm sure we'll run out of oil someday but that was already predicted to have happened 2 or 3 times by now. How does he know whether or not his prediction is based on better logic? As a matter of fact, the increasing world population numbers have even been questioned recently. It seems that while many less developed nations are expanding there populations, many other nations have attained zero or even negative pop growth.
I think it's a shame that so many "non-profit" (bs! someone makes $) groups get donations/funding from folks by stirring up controversy based on poor and sometimes unethically conducted science. This gains the support of many people who just don't have the backgrounds or time to sort through the facts and in the process resources, time, and money are diverted to fight for relatively insignificant issues when we all could be working together to find answers to bigger problems. |
| That's fine, but... | Red Ascent
Jan 19, 2004 11:56 AM | | So you found a nice piece of propaganda. How nice. But tell me, if all of this crap is really this important to you, do you:
1. Drive a vehicle with a renewable energy source;
2. Utilize renewable energy sources, and minimize non-renwable source usage for home heating and lighting (i.e. solar heated hot water, low wattage flourescent lamps, etc.); and
3. Pledge money (real money, as in hundreds or thousands of dollars) towards research, development, and promotion of renewable energy sources (i.e. solar power, wind power, fusion, etc.)?
Actions speak louder than words. There's alot more to resource conservation than just throwing someone-elses words around on a bike-oriented message board. Want to change the world? Live like you mean what you say.
Phil
P.S. By the way, don't tell me none of the above is impossible or impractical. There are plenty of true advocates of conservation that do all of the above on an every day basis. Is it easy? No. Inexpensive? Certainly not. But if it's important to you, you'll find a way. Otherwise, take your hypocrisy and shove it. |
| Its all about awareness my friend. | Goodbye Passion
Jan 19, 2004 12:10 PM | | Maybe a few people will read this and wise up. If so, it was worth it right? For those like yourself that dismiss it...what can I say, I tried.
And how can it be propaganda if it's true? |
| but IS it true? | dir-T
Jan 19, 2004 12:14 PM | | How do we know you're "facts" are any more factual than those that refute them? What's the source? Who funded the work? |
| but IS it true? | Goodbye Passion
Jan 19, 2004 12:28 PM | | From the studies I've seen, it is true. Show me a study that negates what I'm saying, and I will read up...I still can't find one though.
The one study I've read so much about is the one by M. King Hubbert who worked in the oil industry in the 50's. He predicted U.S. oil production would peak in about 1970 and decline thereafter... he was dead on. The US now uses way more oil than it can pump out of its own ground, thus we are HUGELY dependent on foreign sources. More here... http://www.oilcrisis.com/hubbert/
I wouldn't be pissing and moaning if oil was renewable, or we had an alternative that was. Unfortunately we don't though, and time is running out, especially if everybody gives two $hits. |
| Get educated you moron | EndUser
Jan 21, 2004 2:22 PM | | OK...now your getting into my territory and you've completely misrepresented the facts. I'm a Petroleum Geologist that works for a super-major oil company in Alaska, so let me clear up some of Goodbye Passion's spin.
The book that he refer's to is Hubbard's Peak by Kenneth S. Deffeyes. This book was written for energy sector scientists and unfortunately it has become a rally cry for Enviro-Nazi's worldwide. You've got the broad concept, but you failed to read what's wrong with Hubbard's approach to predicting future production peaks and what it really means for us in the future. Hubbard's concepts did not take into account the technology advances that we now use to unlock challenging reserves. Like horizontal and low angle drilling techniques, secondary and tertiary recovery methods (water, gas, and fire flooding), topside separation technologies etc.
Raw oil production rates and peaks are NOT meaningful ways to judge let a lone predict what will happen in the future. If you read the f**king book you loser, you would have discovered that what IS more meaningful is understanding how the energy per unit of production in temporal space has increased. In short, we may not produce as much oil as we did in the 1970's, but our energy output per unit barrel of oil has dramatically increased. The net effect is ZERO even as demand thru time increases...and demand will continue to increase proportionaly with population growth. As time goes on, we are learning to use our oil production much, much, more efficiently than ever before...but no mention of this in Goodbye Passion's rant. You need to divert your focus to global population growth because that, sir, is the root of all our problems...not the use of HC energy.
US Oil production is down - that's a good thing
US Efficiency is way up - that's a good thing
US Pollution is way down below pre 1970's measurements - that's a good thing
US Standard of living continues to increase - that's a good thing
Global population is way up - that's a BAD thing
Goodbye Passion's on this board with diarrhea of the mouth - that's a BAD thing too
You need to stop projecting, man. What's good for you may not be good for me. Man, you really piss me off because you do nothing more than play on the fears of others. Individuals like Goodbye passion, have created a perceptive set that some humans like he have transcended the natural order of things and above all else feels the need to judge and condemn. What are you so afraid of that forces you lie, mislead, and misquote? I love it when people tear down others to make themselves look righteous. You reek of intolerance, sir, and we all know that intolerance is always based on fear, jealously, and hate...what are you afraid of and why do you hate? You, Goodbye Passion, are starting to sound like an elitist segregatist with a selfish agenda and I'm beginning to believe that you've lost all abilities for independent thought. Are you just another radical minion of the Environmental(ly ill) and Socialistic Industries or do you actually have something meaningful to add to world? You, sir, seem brainwashed and repressed and by the looks of it you couldn't reason your way out of a wet paper bag. Seriously, tell us what constructive purpose you serve on this planet other than endlessly displaying your narcissistic, ego maniacal, annihilistic, uneducated, self-righteous, self-defeating blabber? I know many people like you.a pragmatist you aren't.an alarmist you are. I have you pegged. You and people like you are relentlessly in my sights.
Let me know if you have any questions.
Get educated
EndUser |
| Thank God for the voice of knowledge!!! | javaride
Jan 22, 2004 6:32 AM | | Facts are facts and fiction is ... well, Goodbye Passions expertise. |
| Propaganda and truth are not mutually exclusive. | Red Ascent
Jan 19, 2004 12:22 PM | | Propaganda is often (but not always) the publishing of a selective set of truths out of context, to further a predetermined point of view.
Also, I did not dismiss your points. In fact, if you read closely, you'll see I agree with some of them. What I dismissed was the possibility of your espousing of them without actually following through as if you actually believe in them, and without actually proposing a solution for the long term. That, my friend, is what it means to have "tried" to change the world. Don't try - DO IT.
Have you done any of the things I mentioned above? I, myself, may or may not have, but since I'm not the one standing on a soapbox waving my finger at the world, I don't feel obligated to justify those decisions to you or anyone else. You know, glass houses and all that stuff....
Phil |
| Its all about awareness my friend. | Slick
Jan 19, 2004 12:25 PM | | Personally, I think you're angry and too wound up. This will make you feel warm and happy inside.
Peace, Love & Granola
Slick
http://www.adnite.com/flash/shooting/10.asp |
| How can it be true if it's propaganda? | Fast Eddy
Jan 19, 2004 1:39 PM | | No matter how good the intention, preaching that way makes it propaganda, which, by definition, is not truth.
The fact is that the true environmentalist will realize that the real problem is human overpopulation of the planet and go out in a blaze of gunfire, taking as many breeders as possible with him. |
| Interesting thread | Erok
Jan 19, 2004 7:55 PM | | I have some questions for Goodbye Passion. If everyone in North America who drives an SUV voluntarily gave them up for something more fuel efficient, how big of an impact would it really make on the oil situation? How many more years or generations would the oil last if we did this? Would it be that significant as to really matter at this point, before we need to find an alternative energy source? |
| Its not just an SUV issue, thats only part of it... | Goodbye Passion
Jan 20, 2004 3:31 AM | | If everyone that didn't need an SUV used something more fuel efficient, or better yet, if detroit would just make an SUV that got 35-40 mpg, then it would make a difference. And that would just be a start. Baby steps. This is a cultural change. Carpooling, living closer to work, buying smaller/more efficient homes, recycling plastics, driving more fuel efficient vehicles, buying food and other goods produced locally, etc are all things that would make HUGE cumulative differences if more people would join in. |
| How can it be true if it's propaganda? Well actually... | race frehley
Jan 20, 2004 3:49 PM | | Propaganda can be untrue or true.
The definition is: The systematic propagation of a doctrine or cause or of information reflecting the views and interests of those advocating such a doctrine or cause. Material disseminated by the advocates or opponents of a doctrine or cause.
I'm not going to get into this SUV/consumerism etc. debate, but I think your tongue in cheek assertion that overpopulation is a serious problem is right on the money. The planet can only support so many, and when we hit that number we're gonna be in trouble. |
| Why must you leave this board? | Schwinng
Jan 20, 2004 3:35 AM | | You won't find any more or less sympathetic ears to your outcry elsewhere. Plus, this has got to be the best mtn bike related website around.
Like I've told you before, bro, I feel your pain and hate feeling helpless to turn the tide around.
But, until the relationship between big business and politicians' large pockets can be severed, we're stuck.
Schwinng (I'm moving to Hawaii in several years so that my family has less chance of developing health problems related to pollution) |
| Wake up, fellow, smell the coffee of reality.... | Jaybo
Jan 21, 2004 8:22 PM | | Come on, now, please wake up. We need to go back to the land of reality. You have to take your meds per your shrink's orders.
Oh, sorry, this intellectually bankrupt argument was putting me to sleep.
ZZZZZZZZZZZ,
Jaybo
PS you undergraduate moron! Cars eat gas also. The argument is much bigger then that moronically written diatribe you cut and copied. |
| Paging: Farewell Passion: EVERYBODY RUN!!!! THE END IS NEAR!!!! | Mellow Yellow
Jan 22, 2004 5:13 PM | | First, why is it always this website and this message board that gets used for slaming SUV's?? I'm going to go with an assuption that most of the SUV owners in this board use them, amongst other reasons, to take them selves, friends and/or families, and their bikes out into the woods to go riding. I used to own an SUV and sold it, not because of enviromental concerns, but because it had 210,000 miles on it and it's time had come. I'm driving a Camry now, but WILL get either an SUV or a Toyota Tundra as soon as this car is paid for. Why??? Because I have considerations I need to make that won't work if all I did was to live in a shack in the woods and lived on Tofu for the rest of my life.
I have kids who need to be transported to/from school, home, boyscouts, etc. I will own a home again, and any home owners out there who do any work on their homes can tell you how helpful having a truck is for transporting stuff from Home Depot. I'm 6'3" 240pnds; guess what? the list of cars that I fit in is rather small. Yes, I can stand to loose some weight, but I can't loose the height. Trucks and SUVs are the vehicles that I fit in comfortably; where my knees won't be even with the equator of the stairing wheel.
As for the comments you made about the advertising practices of the car companies; do you think that people are so stupid that adds turn them into mindless zombies who can't think for them selves?? I would LOVE to own a Subary WRX. In fact, After the wife's car dies, she'll probably inherit the Camry and I may get one of those for my everyday car. Why? becuase for what it does, IT IS prety enviromentally friendly. Toyota and Honda DO advertise their electric hybrid cars. Perhaps they may not be as much in your neck of the woods, but they do up here in the Pacific Northwest. I see both of their models on the road on my daily commute. I ride my bike into work when the weather is warmer, but I don't do it every day. Why? because I would loose 3 hours of my day in just commuting, showering when I get to work, and washing bike clothing every other day. Which doing that much laundry can't be good for the salmon. I also don't feel that I should risk my health riding every single day in the rain and sub freezing temps (this time of the year in Seattle) simply because some hippies think that the end is near.
Do I think there is a looming energy crisis? Yes. Do I think my kids will have no fuel left when they become adults? No, I think there won't be any Medicare left when I hit 65; but I think, no, I know that they will be an alternative fuel source left by the time they grow old. Why do I think so? because the same people you accuse of being heartless and only worried about corporate gread also have to drive to work; they sometimes have to fly across the country for meetings; and most of them also have kids. Do you think they don't worry about them as well??
The one good thing about the new message board is that we can put these types of retarded post at the bottom very easily by not replying. Please, take this crap somewhere else.
One final note; please let your friends who go out to damage SUVs in their sales lots and who spray paint the side walks with the message "Consume Fewer Resourses" (they are all over here in Seattle) that Twice as many resources now have to be used in order to fix the damage that they cause when they deface sidwalks and driveways, and when $50,000 H2 Hummers need to be repainted, all new windows replaced, and all new interiours redone. These are the same geniuses who released 3,000 (yes, three thousand) Minks in the woods 45 min north of Seattle. Most have been caught; but there are a little less than 1,000 of them who are still out there causing enviromental havock by killing wildlife that is not prepared for them. That's if, the don't die first from the elements.
Please, go away and never come back!
mellow yellow (my now forgo the Tundra and get a big ass yellow H2 instead) |
| YOU'RE RUINING THE LAST DAY OF OLD PASSION!!!!!!!!!!! | upNdown
Jan 23, 2004 7:00 AM | | ...sniffle, sniffle...
Guys, can't we just get along? Sniffle, gulp... Today is the last day of the Passion forum as we know it and you're ruining it with political debate! sniffle |
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