|   Disc Pads ( Metalic vs. Resin)?? | Weak Link
Mar 29, 2003 9:06 AM | | What are the pros and cons of each type of disc pad?
I have also seen posts where some are running one of each. What are the advantages and drawbacks of doing this and does it matter which side of the disc each pad is put? |
| Mountain Bike magazine had a good run down on the ... | AndyH
Mar 29, 2003 12:39 PM | | ... differences between pad types. I'll post the info when I get home this evening.
I have also seen posts where some are running one of each. What are the advantages and drawbacks of doing this and does it matter which side of the disc each pad is put?
I can answer the second part of this question now...no, it doesn't matter which side of the caliper you run the organic pad and which side you run the metallic pad in. However, if I was running that setup, I'd probably flip-flop the two different type of pads from side-to-side every so often to promote even wear on the rotors as the metallic pads will probably wear the rotors down faster than an organic pad. |
| Here's the info from Mountain Bike magazine ... | AndyH
Mar 29, 2003 4:46 PM | | From the November 2002 issue of Mountain Bike magazine where they had a whole bunch of articles on disc brakes:
Pad Basics
Sintered (Metallic) vs. Organic (Resin)
Sintered metallic pads, the most common pads in the disc-brake world, offer the best wet-weather performance and durability, but are also likely to be a bit noisy, and are slightly more expensive (Hayes sells its sintered pads for $24 per wheel). To explain the improved wet-conditions performance, Len Cabaltera of Hayes offers, "Water can be absorbed into and pass out of a sintered pad like a sponge, which ensures immediate engagement and maximum friction between pad and rotor."
In contrast, with organic or resin pads, which do not absorb water, the pad will briefly hydroplane on the disc rotor (until the water is pushed away) before delivering full stopping power.
Semi-metallic pads (like the ones that Hayes sells as "All Weather" for $16 per wheel) fall somewhere in between in terms of performance.
Why offer or use resin or semi-metallic pads? The performance can still be good, and the resin pads reduce cost as well as brake noise. And, they don't transfer as much heat into the caliper, which can give a boost in performance to low-fluid-volume/small-reservoir or closed-system brake designs. Some manufacturers claim better modulation with resin pads, as well. Among those, Shimano will offer consumers the option of sintered or resin pads (or the combination) with the upcoming XTR disc.
Beyond all of those generalizations, a disclaimer: Pad manufacturers guard their pad ingredients lists like military secrets. Meaning, it's impossible to say, based on anything but trial-and-comparison, which pad will perform better/worse/differently than any other pad. Your best bet: When you find a pad well for you, stick with it. |
| re: Disc Pads ( Metalic vs. Resin)?? | Dougal
Mar 29, 2003 3:34 PM | | The metallic pads have a higher friction coefficient (more bite), deal better with water, last longer (2 years or more of normal riding) and cost more. They also conduct heat better to the pistons which can lead to fluid fade in a system not intended for them.
They make a noise similar to an oilstone in some conditions and can squeak at sub walking speeds.
Resin pads are cheaper, wear faster and don't stop as well. However they do insulate better so your fluid runs cooler. They're also more prone to heat fade.
I don't see the point in mixing pads. I'd also be concerned about generating different amounts of heat on each side of the rotor, in extreme cases it'll make it buckle.
Dougal.co.nz |
| I agree about the mixed pad thing | Sparty
Mar 29, 2003 8:15 PM | | It's like wearing a fingerless glove on one hand and a full fingered glove on the other because you're not sure how warm it's going to get that day.
Instead, I'd try both pads and pick one. If I lacked the confidence to make a decision before I started the ride, I'd bring the other kind along in my tool kit. But I wouldn't mix 'em. Instead of perceiving that I'd always have one pad that would give me superior performance, I'd look at it the other way -- one pad will be inferior.
If braking performance is better with one type of pad than the other -- and certainly it will be -- why not use the superior pad on both sides of the rotor?
My 2¢ worth of twisted logic.
--Sparty |
| What do I know, I use Avids, but... | Tscheezy
Mar 29, 2003 10:56 PM | | some people have reported that modulation with one type of pad is better than another on the XTR discs, for instance. But the pad that modulates best may not be the same pad that offers the best braking force. If you mixed pads, you could have moderate modulation and decent power. It is not like one pad will do everything the best, and a mix of pads may offer a compromise which is better than any one particular flavor by itself.
I buy pads based on one single criteria: no squeal in the wet. Everything comes in a distant last place. Makes shopping easy. That said, the Avid pads tend to do everything else very well in my experience, so there is no compromise needed. When you have achieved braking perfection, it is hard to fathom the trials and tribulations of mere mortal brakes. As a purely academic exercise, I will, however, accept that something *could* be gained through mixing pads.
tscheezy |
| "...a mix of pads may offer a compromise..." | Sparty
Mar 30, 2003 7:29 AM | | Compromise is the word, Cheezy. If we have to put one kind of pad on one side of the rotor and another kind of pad on the other side of the rotor in order to get the best braking performance, then the pad manufacturer needs to go back to the drawing board with regard to his pad compound, IMO.
Blend 'em at the factory, not inside the caliper. I expect Shimano (as well as any other brake manufacturer) to get it right the first time. If they think we need a mixed compound pad, then they should produce one in addition to the two they've already got.
EBC has three.
Just another of my miserable opinions.
--Sparty |
| So then you do agree there is an instance when it makes sense | Tscheezy
Mar 30, 2003 9:39 AM | | to run mixed pads: when you are unlucky enough to own brakes from a manufacturer which offers exactly 2 different pads, each with quite different characteristics, neither of which appear to be perfect in all aspects (e.g. XTR, from anecdotal information). Does EBC make XTR pads? That may be the answer right there.
I agree that it seems like a strange band-aid. XTR owners seem to be doing it and liking the results (delusion? perhaps).
It's all good (as long as you run C4s or UCPs)
tscheezy |
| It's not a perfect world | Sparty
Mar 30, 2003 1:26 PM | | I just have a hard time respecting a product -- ANY product -- that doesn't shout "I've been thought through to the nth degree and you won't find a single overlooked aspect in me from design to finish!" That's always been XTR's great appeal and the very reason why so many are willing to pay so much for it.
I'm not saying there's anything wrong with the XTR disc brake, either. I don't own 'em. I hear they're great. It just seems that if the most popular way to set them up is with one pad of each flavor, Shimano ought to address that with an intermediate pad.
And maybe they're doing so as we speak.
Heck, if I owned XTR discs, I might set 'em up the same way! Without owning them, how can I know? I'm just being a philosophical, picky ol' jerk, as usual!
:D
--Sparty |
| Hey Sparty... | Tscheezy
Mar 30, 2003 2:41 PM | | Check out my stack-o-spare-[non-XTR]-pads. (Dunno where they all came from!)
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Sparty wrote: "I'm just being a philosophical, picky ol' jerk, as usual!" While this may be the case, you have a keg on tap at home, so you will always have a few [thirsty] friends!
tscheezy |
| Nice stack o' pads | Sparty
Mar 30, 2003 6:29 PM | | Hmmm... let me go draw myself a cold one and study that stack of brake pads for a while. This may take a while... no need to standby...
Ahhhhhhhhh! Okay, let's not rush this. I'll get back to you sooner or later...
--Sparty
...*slurp* |
| Okay, it's after dinner. More opinionated babble herein... | Sparty
Mar 30, 2003 9:14 PM | | Cheezy, quoting you: "...some people have reported that modulation with one type of pad is better than another on the XTR discs, for instance. But the pad that modulates best may not be the same pad that offers the best braking force."
Let's think about that for a minute. But first, keep in mind that one well known mtbr Brake Time regular has asserted that modulation is the inverse of power. Personally, I agree. Okay, if these two aspects are, in fact, trade-offs, what's to be gained by running one pad of each type? The rider doing so is really saying that the resin pads aren't powerful enough and the metallic pads are too strong. I submit that if that's the case he should run metallics and spend some time practicing his braking technique.
Cheezy, you continue: "I buy pads based on one single criteria: no squeal in the wet. Everything comes in a distant last place. Makes shopping easy. That said, the Avid pads tend to do everything else very well in my experience, so there is no compromise needed."
In this instance, your fourth sentence justifies the reasoning of your first. Personally, I've used other brands of brakes that felt great to me, especially in the area of modulation, and then when I returned to my own setup I was blown away at how powerful my personal brakes were. After using one "well-modulating" brake for a month (let's call it "Brand A"), I nearly endo'd onto my nose upon getting back onto one of my bikes outfitted with my favorite brand. Going to the Brand A brakes, I hadn't noticed how much power I'd given up in order to achieve "improved modulation." After all, with the Brand A brakes I could always squeeze hard and come to a stop. I hadn't noticed, that is, until I got back on a bike with truly powerful brakes. But dang, my brakes didn't modulalte as well, did they. Well, they only didn't modulate as well until I remembered that just a small part of modulation lies in the actual mechanics of the brakes. The vast majority of modulation lies within my own braking abilities and technique. Give me really, really powerful brakes. I'll learn to modulate them.
Disclaimer: this thread was labeled "opinionated babble" up front so I'm feeling free to delve deep into my own selfrighteous tripe. Plus I've enjoyed at least a couple of those self-drawn pounders, therefore I'm unafraid to float the above poop plus the following theory: I submit that there are a lot of riders out there riding brakes that they believe are awesome, and that this situation is principally due to the fact they haven't experienced true braking nirvana. But if they believe their brakes are awesome, what's the harm? Let 'em mix their pads or whatever else they want to do. They got that right. If a man is happy, then isn't he happy? He only becomes unhappy when he finds out his own circumstances are comparitively substandard. It's the American way!
What the heck, let's all be happy! :D
And now, to bed.
--Sparty |
| The problem with my "arguments" are that they are based on... | Tscheezy
Mar 30, 2003 10:02 PM | | other people's comments, and I am taking them at face value (living in small towns makes you gullib... errr, a trusting sort).
Hayes, for instance, have been described to me on many occasions as having an "on-off" feel to them. "Like a light switch" I think is also a regular analogy. They are also credited with being powerful. This says to me that they lack in modulation (relative to other brakes perhaps), but provide ample power. Lots of folks run them happily, so they obviously don't automatically turn the bike into a medieval siege weapon, catapulting its owner over the town wall like a plagued corpse ripe with buboes. Could they benefit from a more progressive power curve? Perhaps, but I cannot say I have any time on them so I will defer to others here. (Note that this progressive power scenario is different than an EITHER modulation OR power situation.) To go to the extreme, a stick in the spokes stops great with very little effort at the lever, but also lacks somewhat in modulation. Should we all carry sticks at the ready and just learn to adapt to their lack of modulation? (Dancing on the edge or irrationality here, I know. Just doing my part on the debate team.)
Sparty, don't make me come down there with my wally-dong and flog you (and maybe have a Spank Dog too)!
The cheeze |
| No, not the wally-dong! Please! | Sparty
Mar 31, 2003 6:51 AM | | I dunno what one of those is, and I don't wanna find out!
How ironic, coincidental or whatever it is that I happened to be wearing my Spank Dog Ale T-shirt at the time you wrote that. Wore it all day yesterday, in fact, even on my 53 mile 'bent ride. It got up to 78° here on Sunday, with cherry blossoms bustin' out all over the place. Beautiful! Finally!
Let's see, what were we talking about, anyway? Oh yeah, bicycle disc brakes. Power vs. modulation. Okay. You mentioned Hayes and tossed out the "light switch" comment. I owned a pair of Hayes hydraulics and pounded the heck out of 'em for two years. They're great brakes with plenty of power. In fact, for a long time all the rags referred to Hayes as the standard by which other disc brakes were judged. The reason the magazines did so? Hayes' power.
Hayes aren't like a light switch, it's just that people who aren't used to that much power simply don't immediately know how to harness it. They squeeze 'em just like they'd squeeze whatever they've been used to squeezin', and in so doing they scare themselves. Same thing could happen to somebody who was used to driving a car without power-assisted brakes. If they suddenly got behind the wheel of a car with power brakes, the first time they went to slow down they might give the car a jolt. (I admit a person might have to be over 40 in order to relate to this talk of a car that lacks power-assist brakes.)
Anyway, does this mean a car's power-assist brakes act like a light switch? No. It simply means the braking power is easier to access. We simply have to train our brain to utilize that braking power effectively. The car without power brakes can be stopped as well, it's just that you might have to stand on the pedal in order to get the brakes up to full power. I use this analogy to illustrate the power vs. modulation theory because even though both cars might be capable of the same ultimate braking power, in comparison to one another, one car's braking system appears to have better modulation and the other appears to have more power. I believe the truth is that the perception/judgement of these aspects (modulation/power) has more to do with an individual driver's expectations and preferences than the car's nuts and bolts mechanical features.
And with bike brakes, same-o, same-o.
So why do I prefer raw power over "better" modulation? Because I do ultraendurance rides, and after five or eight hours in the saddle my hands simply get very tired from using brakes that require a hefty tug on the lever. I've learned that I like brakes with stopping power that is easier to access -- those "light switch" brakes.
Once again, to each his own, and may general happiness prevail.
--Sparty |
| You FORGOT the wally-dong already?? | Tscheezy
Mar 31, 2003 10:21 AM | | I will first give you a visual hint, presented here in its oosik-cozy that a friend was kind (and bored) enough to crochet for me:
Your final hint is that it related directly to your recent imbibing of Spank Dog.
(Sorry, no brake content. I admit defeat.)
tscheezy |
| Oh yeah, that thing | Sparty
Mar 31, 2003 1:14 PM | | Ooooooo, SICK!
I'm both relieved and sorry to say that the wally-dong did not leave an impression on me.
But I do remember it.
Honest.
Didn't I win something for ID-ing it? A CO2 container, perhaps? T'would be ironic indeed for me to forget the wally-dong! I hoist my glass in the direction of Alaska every time I draw a pint! And another, and another, and...
...*slurp*
--Sparty
P.S. Thanks for givin' up on the brake issue. My debating technique: First try to win on the merits of the argument. Failing that, fling bullsh!t. Finally, if both strategies have failed, keep babbling until you bore your opponent to death! I often hear the phrase: "Babble on, Mr. Babylon!" |
| What's wrong sparty. | Dougal
Apr 1, 2003 12:42 AM | | What's the matter man. You're starting to sound like me!!!
Light switch brakes? Only to those who flip a switch with four fingers really fast. Try somewhere between "on" and "off" and you'll find modulation.
Dougal.co.nz |
| Sometimes I drink a bit too much and start shootin' my mouth off | Sparty
Apr 1, 2003 6:33 AM | | More miscellaneous babble:
There's plenty of modulation in a typical light switch.
The switch moves easily and gradually.
It's the electricity itself that's hard to modulate.
The time when I make braking errors is at the end of a long ride.
When my body and brain are tired, I occasionally grab too much brake.
Yet the modulation of my bike's brakes never changes.
From start to finish it remains constant.
Is it my brakes that are hard to modulate, or is it my brain?
The opinions herein are worth exactly what you paid for them.
It's only 6:30am.
I have not been drinking.
Today.
Yet.
Honest.
--Sparty |
| so, which pads do XTs come with??? nm | ELi
Mar 30, 2003 4:13 PM | | nm |
| so, which pads do XTs come with??? nm | Weak Link
Mar 30, 2003 4:53 PM | | The set that I just purchased, 2002 XT 755 with resin hose, has metalic pads. |
| EBC reds wear out fast | boof
Mar 30, 2003 6:45 PM | | EBC reds are supposedly Kevlar based.... I've had some on the front (XT disc) and they're 70% worn out after about three short steep rides in the dry. The standard XT pads and Koolstop pads lasted 100 times longer and also provided much more power. |
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