|   5th Element Low Down | Mr. Damper
Jan 28, 2002 11:07 PM | | Well, I finally got to take a look at the much anticipated 5th Element damper and here's what I found.
1. I was suprised to learn that the compression damping is not actually progressive. What effects the dampers bottoming resistance is just the build up of air pressure in the compensator chamber. Air not hydraulics? I thought the whole point of the patent was progrssive damping?
2. It appears to use an non-hardened steel shaft that has been Nitride coated ala Rock Shox Super Deluxe. If anyone has ever owned a Rock Shox damper with this black coating on the shaft you now how quickly it wears.
3. The piston assembly only controls rebound damping. They use a small cavity style "air trap" cylinder on top of the pistons compression face instead of the normal shim style stack to control oil flow. The cylinder isn't actually presurized, but traps air during assembly. Basically it's a one way valve. It opens on compression and allows oil to flow through the piston and closes on rebound to force oil through the shaft orifice.
4. The shock uses a 1/2" diameter shaft but the transfer hole in the reservoir bridge is only 0.175" in diameter. This becomes a factor during displacement when the shaft speeds increase and the oil has to move back and forth through the bridge to match this rate.
5. The low speed compression damping or "starting stroke" adjustment is just a tapered needle that meters a straight orifice. Clockwise decreases the effective hole size, couter-clockwise increases the effective hole size.
6. The "ending stroke" adjustment is where things get unusual. It's a spring loaded cylinder plug that is used to control how much presure is required to open the valve and how much fluid can pass. It's actually the exact same system that Fox uses in their Vanilla RC to control low speed damping. It doesn't actually control the ending stroke of the shock, but actually effects the entire stroke and has to be adjusted in conjunction with the "starting stroke" screw. ??
7. Where's the replenish circuit?? All shocks have a one way valve to allow oil to "dump" back into the shock body from the reservoir during the rebound stroke. This keeps the shock from cavitating on extension. The 5th Element, however, doesn't have such a circuit. It seems that they're relying on the oil to pas back through the orifice used for the "starting stroke" adjustment. Well, if you have this adjustment turned in, then it will restrict oii from getting back into the shock body and give you this effect. If anyone can shed some light on this one I'd be interested.
8. Such a small volume of air has to be affeced by heat, elevation, etc.. This is why shock manufactures use Nitrogen gas. It seems like a lot of work, always having to check your air presure.
Anyway, just thought that someone might be interested. I've had a pretty good look at this thing so if you have any questions, I'd be happy to comment. |
| re: 5th Element Low Down | mtnbikfrut
Jan 28, 2002 11:18 PM | | thankyou for the info.
much appreciated.
I am waiting for others to contest/validate your conclusions and questions so we can have a complete picture of this shock.
thanks again,
-garrett |
| So what your saying is..... | AD
Jan 29, 2002 6:22 AM | | That the shock is going to be high maintence!!?? |
| sounds like one of the curnutt boys | Jm
Jan 29, 2002 9:00 AM | | I heard the same complaining at interbike from Curnutt about Progressive, they are extremely "sore" about the fact that they sold their patent.
So you haven't ridden it, and you are "guessing" about its durability?
And as for progressive damping, who said it has to be controlled by just oil? The mechanics of that are pretty crazy, much easier to use air if possible. |
| Thanks now I'm confused.... | Avalanche or Progressive??????
Jan 29, 2002 9:09 AM | | I was gonna get a 5th/Bullit, but now I may go the extra mile to get an Avalanche from Craig and forget about all the knob-twiddling B.S. |
| Ditto ! | JeffG
Jan 29, 2002 9:40 AM | | After reading all that I'm starting to think the same thing. I'm far from a being a shock guru so I can foresee that thing whoopin my ass. I still want to hear some more feedback from actual riders before I totally count the 5th Element out. |
| I OWN ONE | Bullitman9
Jan 29, 2002 9:31 PM | | I am now an owner of a 5th element. I must say, it is super confusing to set up, but after 2 hours of set up, it is simply unbelievable. I have 30 percent sag, running a 375 lbs spring, myself being 180. THE BIKE PEDALS LIKE A HARDTAIL The air is used to make the shock progressive in the end of the stroke, thus resisting bottoming, and it is used as a threshold blowoff setting. Anyway, after setup, the shock is much better pedaling, and I feel I WILL be faster, however, I think an Avalanche will soak up the little stuff better, but the big stuff AND pedaling the 5th element has the technological edge on. Not to mention they went all of last season w/o a technological glitch. |
| sounds like one of the curnutt boys | Rimpy
Mar 8, 2002 5:15 PM | | Sheesh!
Quit shit talking! There are no "Curnutt boys" just Senior and Junior. Why would they be sore? They are the ones who sold the technology to Progressive!! If anything, they're stoked.
Peeved Rimpy |
| re: 5th Element ------air-vs- nitrogen | rm99
Jan 29, 2002 9:48 AM | | Your message got posted to Ridemonkey.com and someone replied with this:
some good insight
I won't speak to most of the things addressed until I actually get mine, but re: nitrogen vs. air. I've always liked the idea of air over nitrogen only because you can rebuild it yourself. I've heard the benefits of nitrogen over air, but my friend, sick of sending his vanilla rc in for rebuilds, reamed his out to accept a schrader valve. Now he can rebuild the thing himself because he can just inject air instead of nitrogen. Interestingly though he hasn't had to rebuild it in 8+ months of riding. |
| air-vs- nitrogen | serious
Jan 29, 2002 12:00 PM | | as this was explained to me by....hmmm, can't seem to remember right now, maybe randolph at stratos, the big reason why most companies use nitrogen instead of air is because you need special permits to transport and store compressed air, while you don't to transport and store compress nitrogen (something about nitrogen being 100% inert, while air is not), and simply being cheaper and easier to use air. he said it didn't have anything to do with the performance of the shock. anyway, that's what i heard. |
| From what I've heard... | Inclag
Jan 29, 2002 12:19 PM | | ...air is easily affected by changes in elevation and temperature as nitrogen is. |
| re: 5th Element Low Down | n10sCykls
Jan 29, 2002 10:30 AM | | I feel it is necessary to respond to this. We at INTENSE spec the Progressive shock. We have looked at Mr. Damper statements, (who ever he is) and after talking to the shocks designer, it is obvious this guy has taken apart the shock, BUT he is completely wrong on all 8 of his points. Mr. Damper has obviously not put it on a dyno, does not have an understanding of its complete operation, and is probably not an engineer as he got some of the operational stuff backwards. Progressive will rebut all eight of his points within a weeks time. |
| re: 5th Element Low Down | CJay
Jan 29, 2002 10:57 AM | | Why can't Progressive respond to this now. Why will it take a week? |
| Who are you?... | n10scyklwhat?
Jan 29, 2002 11:02 AM | | Usually when an official representative of a company posts here they include their name, so as to authenticate their identity and let people know what they're saying is valid.
What department are you in at Intense?
Just thought this would help |
| It's Marv, the owner of the company. (nm) | Zonic Man
Jan 29, 2002 11:08 AM | | |
| Oops, my bad...(more) | azonicbruce
Jan 29, 2002 11:16 AM | | sorry, I just started coming here regularly not too long ago so I'm not too familiar with who the regulars are here. Thanks, though.
If you don't mind me asking, could you tell me a little more about yourself, Zonic Man? What do you do? Where do you work? You seem to be an someone that is regarded highly by many here at mtbr, and seem to know a lot as well.
Thanks |
| I am: | Zonic Man
Jan 29, 2002 11:32 AM | | Unemployed.
Not regarded highly.
Knowledge is but a state of mind.
Good-day. |
| Oh, one more question... | azonicbruce
Jan 29, 2002 11:21 AM | | Just so I am more familiar, where does Jeff Seber fit in? I thought HE was the owner. OR is he just the FOUNDER of Intense? What does he do now?
Thanks |
| Designer and co-owner. (nm) | Zonic Man
Jan 29, 2002 11:33 AM | | |
| Thanks (nm) | azonicbruce
Jan 29, 2002 11:38 AM | | |
| The question is.... | Who is Mr Damper?
Jan 29, 2002 11:39 AM | | Why is HE anonymous?
Competing company??
Sure sounds like it.
SM |
| like I said | Jm
Jan 29, 2002 3:45 PM | | The Curnutt boys are quite sore at the Progressive boys. The patent liscensing deal was kind of sour, and they are not very happy that Progressive is making the shock(and I think it comes from the fact that the progressive will fit more bikes and is already speced on two entirely different bike companies). So Curnutt leaped at any chance to put Progressive down, their design and manufacturing. Basically saying that the way Progressive was executing it would not work at all. There seems to be a lot of resentment between them, and I think there is more than a standing chance that this poster has something to do with Curnutt.
personal observation from talking with both companies. |
| like I said | Rimpy
Mar 8, 2002 4:59 PM | | Meester,
You don't know dookie! Try actually calling Foes and asking them. They couldn't care less about Progressive. They (and anyone who knows anything, including their competitors, knows this) have been working on this technology for four years. That's why this site kinda sucks, dweebs are always posting misinformation. The blind leading the blind.
Mad Rimpy |
| Why you REALLY spec 5th Element shocks: | Zonic Man
Jan 29, 2002 11:08 AM | | Hi Marv!
You can get them for $115 via OEM, and they are SOMEWHAT better than fox shocks. The kiddies like having all the cool stuff to fiddle with.
And all 8 of ideas are TOTALLY correct. If progressive's technology did not work in the early '80's on MX bikes, what makes you think it would now? And Curnett uses the same ideas too.
The damper idea just isn't sound for the 5th element. |
| Zonic... | JeffG
Jan 29, 2002 11:44 AM | | Did you get your Ava. with reb. and comp. adjustments, or did you have Ava. set it up according to your riding style and weight? If you got it without the adjustments are still able to freeride and DH without any ill effects? |
| Little Avalanche info. | Zonic Man
Jan 29, 2002 11:54 AM | | They come with rebound and internal compression stock. There is an optional low speed compression adjuster for $100.
All avalanches are custom built by Craig, the owner of the company. When you actually order one, you have to go through a series of questions asked by craig to get it set up right. |
| Hehehe... | Inclag
Jan 29, 2002 12:16 PM | | I don't care if the 5th Element is the greatest thing out there. I will not ride one for the simple reason that they will not shut-up about how great it is. You know all the mags are getting mucho advertising bucks when they all claim this as the latest and greatest thing when consumers had not even touched them yet.
Maybe I'm just percieving 5th Element as being cocky know-it-alls, but the way they present themselves and market have made it that I already don't like them. On the other hand, I have a ton of respect for Avalanche even though I don't even own one. They act humbly and the actual owners of their products do the marketing for them. They are becoming more and more popular too, still with little help from the magazines. In fact, I don't know of many rear shocks manufacturers that advertise (No Rock Shox, Risse, Stratos, and little bit by Fox). I hope 5th Element takes note that they did a horrible job at advertising when there are people out there that already have negative views of their product before anyone uses it. Sure there will always be a few sceptics, but c'mon there's a little more in this 5th Element debate.
Okay rant over |
| Hehehe... | suspensionguy
Jan 29, 2002 6:58 PM | | How can we do a "horrible job at advertising" when we haven't run ONE ad? Since we are concentrating on OEM sales to Intense and Santa Cruz, we have not done any marketing via advertising at all. The "Hype" is coming from magazines and consumers who want to know if the 5th Element is for real. We "humbly" believe it is or we wouldn't waste our money developing it.
You really don't know anything about us. You want to slam us for what reason I don't really know.
And slamming a product before you have even tried it??? What's with the negative stuff? You sound a bit biased for no reason at all.
Larry Langley/Progressive Suspension (and proud of it!) |
| Hehehe... | Inclag
Jan 29, 2002 8:23 PM | | Don't tell me that magazine reviews aren't marketing ploys by companies, I mean be realistic. Anyway, yes I do know that I sound biased towards your product and I really do provide no evidence other than I don't like it because all I hear is how great a totally unproven product is.
Sure I may sound a bit ignorant, but this is one of those things that just bugs me more so than it apparently does other people. I do wish you guys the best of luck with your company, and if the product does work, that's great
later
Inclag |
| re: 5th Element Low Down | Mr. Damper
Jan 29, 2002 11:51 AM | | Okay, this turned into an unintended explosion. Anyway, NO I haven't ridden the 5th element. It was already in pieces when I saw it. As with any product, the the proof lies in it's performance in the field, not the statistics that make up the product. I simply thought that this would end up being a forum discussing technical details of differnet damper designs. My bad.
Anyway, I don't feel that any conclusions on how this product works should be made based on my rambling. Just a technology geek here. |
| gotta love Empty Beer . com! | rm99-nm
Jan 29, 2002 12:26 PM | | nmnm |
| re: 5th Element Low Down | n10sCykls
Jan 29, 2002 1:11 PM | | The proof is in the pudding gentlemen, or is it the pedaling . The new MBA will be out any day now and there is a test of the SLX with old tech shock versus new tech, the ride tells the story. |
| Sorry, mag review is not proof | dout'in Thomas
Jan 29, 2002 2:22 PM | | sorry, man been around the mag biz to long (10 years). I know where the mags captial flow stems from...............
and it isn't in subscriptions |
| Insight | Jeff Wells
Jan 29, 2002 10:55 PM | | Jeff Wells here, I am the National Sales Manager at Progressive Suspension, Inc. I have been with the company for nine years now. Progressive has been making suspension products for 20 years now. Just like any other company that has been around for this amount of time, we did not get this far by making a worthless product. With that said, I want to make a few comments here.
1st; I am going to let Roy Turner (VP of RD at Progressive) respond on the technical aspects of our 5th Element. This is his baby and he knows it better than anyone. His response will be posted shortly. By the way, Roy was previously employed by Rock Shox and Kawasaki, where he was responsible for the careers of the likes of Mike Larocco and Ricky Carmichael (ever heard of these guys). Roy know's what he's doing.
2nd; As Larry Langley (Progressive Media Relations) stated earlier, we have not spent any money on advertising or promotion of our product. The product speaks for itself.
3rd; On the issue of Curnutt-the guys at Curnutt are in the business of making suspension components. They make a very nice, high quality product as does RS, Fox, Avalance, etc. We have no hard feelings or annomocity towards anyone. We are all in the same business, competiton fuels our industry and we welcome it. We just think our is better.
4th: Who it this Zonicwhatever guy? Where does he get his information?
Whoever you are I welcome you comments, give me a call. I would love to discuss this all with you personally.
5th; Damper guy? Thank you for bringing us up. Although your comments are incorrect, we do appreciate all the interest you have helped spawn. Watch for Roy's complete response.
6th;As to why someone would want to get on this or any other site and bash us or anyone else's product or involvment in our industry without actually trying the product themselves is ridiculous.
But whatever, enjoy the reading and all I can say is this; when you get a chance, try our shock and see for yourself, make your own dicision's in life.
Thanks for your time,
Jeff Wells |
| re: 5th Element Low Down | Roy Turner
Feb 2, 2002 1:51 PM | | Progressive Suspension Technical Response to "Mr. Damper"
From the entire staff at Progressive, we would first like to offer our sincere apologies for the confusion that has been created by the invalidated statements that were posted on MTBR by "Mr. Damper.
We understand & support the importance of accurate information that assists consumers in making good buying decisions before laying out your hard earned dollars. Unfortunately, consumers are often left confused when self-proclaimed experts post invalidated opinions that appear believable to the non-technical consumer.
We offer the following response to the slanderous comments that have been posted against the integrity of Progressive Suspension, Intense Cycles & Santa Cruz Bicycles by Mr. Damper.
But first, a little food for thought to help everyone assess the validity of Mr. Damper:
* Who is Mr. Damper and what are his qualifications to support the statements he has posted?
* Why doesn't Mr. Damper identify himself?
* Would Progressive, Intense & Santa Cruz all support fictitious product claims as stated by Mr. Damper?
* Can a product with only positive performance reviews really be as bad as claimed by Mr. Damper?
* Has Mr. Damper actually ridden a bike with a 5th Element shock or made any ride comparisons against other manufacturers shocks?
* The patented technology was developed at the NORBA & UCI World Cup events in 2001 without one race failure..can any other shock manufacturer make this claim?
* Why would top professional DH/DS racers like Carter, Kovarik & Ronning, who have the choice to use any suspension product they want, choose the 5th Element in a direct comparison over other top name shocks, if it wasn't the best performer?
* How can Mr. Damper dispute the 5th Element's progressive/position sensitive damping without running the shocks on the dyno?
* Who is the likely person/company who would post such slanderous invalidated claims?
* Usually a product review would outline the good & bad. What is Mr. Damper's motivation for only focusing on the potential negative items he's dreamed up?
* Do the statements posted by Mr. Damper clearly show that he doesn't even understand the patent or technical function of the control valve and how it provides position sensitive damping?
Enough "food for thought"..as I'm sure most everyone reading this is smart enough to have asked the same questions about Mr. Damper's credibility.
With that said.on to addressing Mr. Damper's statements as copied directly from the MTBR site, including spelling errors.
Mr. Damper's 1st statement - 1. I was suprised to learn that the compression damping is not actually progressive. What effects the dampers bottoming resistance is just the build up of air pressure in the compensator chamber. Air not hydraulics? I thought the whole point of the patent was progrssive damping?
P.S. - We have hundreds of hours in testing & dyno runs to validate the position sensitive hydraulic damping characteristics of the control valve system. What Mr. Damper has failed to realize is the simple patented function provided by the trapped air space inside the control valve. Basically, it's a higher/increasing pressure overpowering the lower pressure of one atmosphere that is trapped inside the control valve. The more the shock compresses, the higher the pressure that is applied to the surface of the control valve. As the pressure rises on the control valve, its reaction to pressure continually increases the restriction of oil that can flow through the main piston. As the oil flow is progressively restricted, the hydraulic damping force rises. Simply put, as the shock compresses, the hydraulic damping force rises according to the air compression ratio in the reservoir. This is also how we affect the pedaling platform. Higher initial pressure equals more damping resistance to reduce pedal bob. In our dyno testing, we have actually measured damping force rates in excess of 1500 lbs at the end of the stroke. For comparison purposes, any other manufacturers bicycle shocks are generally only capable of about 200 lbs in damping force, and that is only at the higher speeds since they are only speed sensitive. The management of these damping capabilities is how we achieve good pedaling and the ability to use lighter spring rates.
Mr. Damper's 2nd statement - 2. It appears to use an non-hardened steel shaft that has been Nitride coated ala Rock Shox Super Deluxe. If anyone has ever owned a Rock Shox damper with this black coating on the shaft you now how quickly it wears.
P.S. - I'm sure Mr. Damper used a lab test to determine the surface coating and hardness of our shaft? Well, maybe not? But we do not use the same plating process as delivered by RockShox. What we do use is Nitrotec shafting with a hardness of 65Rc.If you're not sure what that means Mr. Damper...maybe you have a friend that's an engineer you can ask? Or visit the Nitrotec site @ www.fpmht.com/nitro.html As far as durability, what I can offer is our testing results: First, real world racing for all of the 2001 season without even one leak..and please feel free to ask any of the teams or racers. Second, we have conducted the normal boring dyno endurance tests of six figure full stroke cycles with a substantially weighted side load pulling on the seal head without any damage, shaft wear or seal leakage. Further, since we're on the topic of durability, I'm surprised Mr. Damper didn't bother to talk about the precise alignment & tolerances of our shaft & piston assembly that avoids binding/wear or the o-ring backed piston ring & steel body that provides 2-3 times the life cycle of other top name products that don't use o-ring backed piston rings with anodized aluminum cylinders that wear out & lose damping in 1/3 the time. Other durability features overlooked by Mr. Damper include soft hydraulic topping that minimizes the top-out that can bang your shock apart? Basically, this shock was designed with hardcore durability in mind.
Mr. Damper's 3rd statement - 3. The piston assembly only controls rebound damping. They use a small cavity style "air trap" cylinder on top of the pistons compression face instead of the normal shim style stack to control oil flow. The cylinder isn't actually presurized, but traps air during assembly. Basically it's a one way valve. It opens on compression and allows oil to flow through the piston and closes on rebound to force oil through the shaft orifice.
P.S. Well, Mr. Damper is a partially correct on his 3rd point. The control valve does close on rebound. From there, the oil is forced through 2 separate shimmed rebound circuits that allow a far better tuning balance between the low & hi-speed rebound circuits than exists on other bicycle shocks in the market. Also provided with our rebound circuitry is complete closure of the adjustable rebound bleed circuit during the compression stroke. The end benefit is less damping fade & complete control of the compression oil flow by the control valve. This is another patent pending feature of the 5th Element shock that enables the low-speed damping characteristics that provide the platform damping & great pedaling.
Mr. Damper's 4th statement - 4. The shock uses a 1/2" diameter shaft but the transfer hole in the reservoir bridge is only 0.175" in diameter. This becomes a factor during displacement when the shaft speeds increase and the oil has to move back and forth through the bridge to match this rate.
P.S. I'll assume that Mr. Damper is trying to insinuate that our shock would lack flow rate on the rebound stroke or spike in hi-speed situations where shaft speeds exceed 1 or 2 meters per second? Again, I would offer our dyno test results & the valid comments of our racers that have used the products all season. This is one of the shining qualities of our system. The higher the shaft speed & resulting pressures above the piston, the more the control valve is forced open to absorb the spike (remember that the control valve action is regulated by pressures). In actual ride & dyno tests, we have conclusively proven the opposite of what Mr. Damper is trying to claim. We can factually state that the 0.175 hole provides a sufficient flow rate for a ½" shaft. Additionally, if you compare any normal "shim stack piston assembly" that is used by just about all other shock suppliers, you will find that the higher shaft speeds always produce higher damping forces and spiking at high shaft speeds, since most other bicycle shocks use only a speed sensitive damping system. Also worthy of note is the fact that other shock brands use transfer holes as small as .090. Finally, when we talk about a ½" shaft diameter, what sounds stronger to you for the hardcore free-ride & downhill applications.a .375" shaft as used by most other shock manufacturers or a ½"/.500 shaft? How many bent .375 shafts have we seen through the years on free-ride & downhill bikes? This isn't some low leveraged 4" wheel travel sport anymore.
Mr. Damper's 5th statement - 5. The low speed compression damping or "starting stroke" adjustment is just a tapered needle that meters a straight orifice. Clockwise decreases the effective hole size, couter-clockwise increases the effective hole size.
P.S. Well, another point missed by Mr. Damper. He has obviously not even looked at the owners manual or the sticker on the reservoir. Mr. Damper has described the beginning & ending stroke adjuster completely backwards. Here he talks about the "starting stroke" adjuster as the tapered needle that meters a straight orifice. This is actually the ending stroke adjuster.
Mr. Damper's 6th statement - 6. The "ending stroke" adjustment is where things get unusual. It's a spring loaded cylinder plug that is used to control how much presure is required to open the valve and how much fluid can pass. It's actually the exact same system that Fox uses in their Vanilla RC to control low speed damping. It doesn't actually control the ending stroke of the shock, but actually effects the entire stroke and has to be adjusted in conjunction with the "starting stroke" screw. ??
P.S. Well, yet another point missed by Mr. Damper. What he has described as "ending stroke" is actually the "beginning stroke" adjuster. Maybe a manual would help? And again, how is Mr. Damper evaluating the damping result without a dyno? The performance result described by Mr Damper is accurate for a typical speed sensitive bicycle shock, in that the adjustment affects the damping force for the entire stroke, according to the speed that the shaft compresses. But again, Mr. Damper's technical explanation has failed to consider the position sensitive performance of our control valve system when combined with a speed sensitive hydraulic adjuster of this type. In the 5th Element, the combination of these two features produce an entirely new position sensitive damping result. The result of the beginning stroke adjuster is similar to a regressive curve.where the damping force change is much more pronounced at the beginning of the stroke, as compared to the end of the stroke. And we do have the dyno results to back up these claims.
Mr. Damper's 7th statement - 7. Where's the replenish circuit?? All shocks have a one way valve to allow oil to "dump" back into the shock body from the reservoir during the rebound stroke. This keeps the shock from cavitating on extension. The 5th Element, however, doesn't have such a circuit. It seems that they're relying on the oil to pas back through the orifice used for the "starting stroke" adjustment. Well, if you have this adjustment turned in, then it will restrict oii from getting back into the shock body and give you this effect. If anyone can shed some light on this one I'd be interested.
P.S. Mr. Damper is correct in his statement that all piggy-back style shocks must have a way for the oil to return to the main cylinder on rebound. But lets all be realistic here.if the 5th Element didn't have a way for oil to return to the main cylinder, then how could the shock functioning properly? Again, another point claimed by Mr. Damper that can only be substantiated with a dyno.unless of course the shock has no rebound damping? Three details missed here by Mr. Damper. First, the return circuit is through the ending stroke adjuster, not the beginning stroke adjuster. Second, when the adjuster is turned to maximum (full in), the needle that restricts the oil flow rate does not shut off the oil flow path. The tapered point on the adjuster needle reaches its max limit before it can close off the oil passageway. Further, the oil passageway is a larger diameter than the max diameter of the adjuster needle. Basically, two safeguards against any rebound flow restriction. During our dyno testing, we conducted tests in the maximum closed adjustment positions with varying level of pressure checks. Cavitation was never experienced unless the reservoir pressure was reduced below 35psi. This is no different than any other manufacturers shocks. The recommended pressure range for the 5th Element is 50-175psi. Maintain the recommended pressure & there is no problem.
Mr. Damper's 8th statement - Such a small volume of air has to be affeced by heat, elevation, etc.. This is why shock manufactures use Nitrogen gas. It seems like a lot of work, always having to check your air presure.
P.S. I'll start this reply by pointing out that our air volume is larger than most of our competitor's shocks. Second, air pressure change at different elevations is minimal at best, since the air is contained in a hard shell. When air is contained inside a soft flexible membrane (like a balloon), then the pressure would change with elevation because it can expand or be compressed. But in a hard shell that maintains a constant volume, the pressure is unaffected by the outside change in altitude/pressure. The exception to altitude pressure change is in the case of an air shock, where you will see a slight spring rate increase because of larger airshaft diameter. Moving on to nitrogen.what is it? In a nutshell, nitrogen is just dry air with the moisture/humidity removed. It is not a voodoo magic gas. It helps to minimize the possibility of corrosion & provides slightly less pressure rise in hi temperature situations. Generally, nitrogen is effective against excessive rise in pressures when temperatures exceed 180-220f. Ever check your bicycle shock temperature? We accurately measured shock temperatures during our 2001 race development and found that the shock temperatures consistently ran around 120-150 degrees in downhill. Not even close to temperatures of professional motocross shocks that generally run around 190-220 degrees. Additionally, during our normal battery of lab test, we've tested the 5th Element at temperatures up to 220 degrees. The 5th Element was also run through our normal six figure cycle tests with normal pressurized air, at a maintained 160-180 degree temperature. The damping results were no different than the normal "cold to hot" change of any other shock. And.what about air shocks? Doesn't every manufacturer that produces air shocks provide hand pumps to adjust the air settings? Does anybody use nitrogen in air shocks? Everyone uses pumps on air shocks as an adjustment feature. On the 5th Element, this is exactly the same situation. We use a hand pump and air pressure changes to adjust the platform & bottoming damping control. Isn't this a bunch easier than changing the spring? Not to mention, it's more effective in controlling bottoming, without getting your butt kicked from some huge spring rate. Is it really any more trouble to change the air pressure on the 5th Element, as compared to adjusting the pressure on an air shock?
In conclusion, I'd like to leave everyone with a few parting comments;
* We have taken this opportunity to clear the air regarding the comments made by Mr. Damper. We fully expect our comments to generate a number of new questions & responses from consumers that are too numerous to address. For that reason, this will be our only response of this type, as we felt it important to protect the integrity of Progressive Suspension, Intense Cycles & Santa Cruz Bicycles against these initial attacks on our product claims by Mr. Damper. If you have further interests or questions, you can view the 5th Element Owners Set-up & Tuning Guide at www.progressivesuspension.com or contact our customer service department @ 760-948-4012.
* For any consumers that have the technical background & enjoy servicing their own products, please be aware that service by anyone other than an authorized Progressive service center will void your warranty. If you make that choice anyway, a friendly tip that Progressive use's a strict build procedure to insure accurate positioning of the IFP on each travel shock. If the IFP is located incorrectly during servicing, extensive damage to your shock will result. To insure that service is always performed correctly, Progressive Suspension strongly recommends that you have service performed only by an authorized Progressive Suspension service center.
* We are in no way angry regarding the comments by Mr. Damper. If anything, we are actually honored by all the responses that were created by consumers seeking information about the 5th Element and concerned that they receive accurate information. We understand that everyone has their favorites and that some people will do crazy things to support their favorites..that's just the way it is.
* From the entire staff at Progressive, we are genuinely proud & excited to offer the new performance benefits of the 5th Element technology to the mountain bike community. We encourage everyone to take a spin on a new Intense or Santa Cruz mountain bike & let the product performance speak for itself.
* Oh, by the way Mr. Damper, your warranty is void.
With Kind Regards to all,
Roy Turner |
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