|   888/demo9 complaints | fatlip
Dec 10, 2003 5:26 PM | | i have read a lot of complaints about the demo 9 and 888.
"it's a gimick."
it's a 4 bar, but they got 9 inches out of it. and they did it with a real tire (26"). 2 of the biggest complaints of the bighit.
"it's too heavy."
it's a freaking freeride/down hill bike. boo hoo. go climb a hill. who else has the travel and tire size and comes in under 44#?
"the 888 is too long."
if you look at the head angle of the demo (66 degrees) and the angle of the big hit, with the super t, (66.3degrees) it would indicate that the frame was built around the fork. many motorcycles have been built around new suspension tech (re: ktm linkless rear shock). could it be that we are moving out of the stone agaes and building macines with matching components?! dear god.
and finally, who else has the specailized warranty.
dont get me wrong, i love to see the little guy make it. but who every was the brand to make this rig, they got my money. |
| under 44lbs....there's a bridge in brooklyn in the classsifieds | Jm_
Dec 10, 2003 5:58 PM | | Sure....
Titus makes a 4-bar, it has 9", Intense makes a 4-bar, it has 9". There's nothing spectacular about the demo9 because it has 9" of travel....jeeze.
And "too heavy" is used when a frame weighs in excess of other comparable ones, for no particular reason, just like the demo9. |
| under 44lbs....there's a bridge in brooklyn in the classsifieds | fatlip
Dec 10, 2003 6:16 PM | | of those, which has the warranty?
i honestly dont know about the weight of the other models. what do they weigh?
and price seems about average of the intense type bike.
you will always be able to find a lighter one. but will it last? and if not will the factory cover it? foes didnt. that bike worked great, till it broke. now it collects dust.
so, for a 4 bar, 9in, 26" wheel, built to carry an 8"fork without turning into a chopper, with a real warranty and good parts network, what should i buy? |
| you are kidding right? | Jm_
Dec 10, 2003 6:29 PM | | anyhow, I have a 4-bar FSR link bike, 8" of travel, cost me $1899, replaced the crap fork(but was able to sell it new so the total price is the same), and I have a bike every bit as good, with a company that will stand behind it.
And I've been to Tituses factory, they'll stand behind all of their bikes, and they are extremely impressive. If you are going to dump the kind of money on a Demo9, your money is much better spent on a Titus SuperMoto.
Many bikes can take an 8" fork, Monster T, Shiver is only 10mm shy of the 200mm 888, Stratos S8, Champ8, Avalanche DH8....
Like I said before, the Demo9 is a visual rehash for marketing purposes. You simply can't sell the same frame year after year, people see it as stagnating and they all flock the the greatest new thing, like a VPP10, or M3, or the new Turner, etc. |
| Why do you care about weight on a DH bike? | ThoughtfulPirate
Dec 10, 2003 6:51 PM | | Or even on an XC bike? That whole argument is weak. I dont see a problem with saving weight if you can, but dont whine about it, its for riding DH. A pro for specialized at one of the bike stores I go to has one, a prototype, and its incredibly sweet, and he wins races on it. |
| because it has a helluva lot more to do with pedaling than bob | Jm_
Dec 10, 2003 7:10 PM | | does.
Try and ride a 40lb bike all day, it's impossible at any kind of good pace. Even if it has a 5th element, or Romic, and doesn't bob.
Ride a 25lb XC bike, and you'll be much MUCH faster, even if it does bob, it basically won't matter as much.
Pedaling is important in DHing, it's simply critical in racing. Being able to pedal your bike is very important, and the total weight has a LOT to do with this. It's not a weak argument, it's simply something that those with experience know, those that haven't been dhing for 6 years might not understand it as much, but trust me, it's important.
And again, the point wasn't that the Demo9 frame weighs ~14lbs, it's that it weighs a few more pounds than many comparable frames, the bighit included.
What are the benefits? As I said, lowering the CG improves manueverability, but making the bike heavier makes it worse, there's extra metal and material on the demo9 as opposed to a reglar traditional 4-bar, and why? Does it make it better in ANY way? There is no benefit, at all. There is nothing about the demo9 other than the 26" wheel that you can say is better than the Bighit. It's simply a redesign for marketing purposes.
It's the best example yet of specialized's marketing hype. |
| your getting it. | fatlip
Dec 10, 2003 7:16 PM | | ok, you admit the 26" rear. as far as bob goes, isnt that the basis of the 4 bar. |
| once again, specialized hype | Jm_
Dec 10, 2003 7:20 PM | | they'd have you believe that the 4-bar pedals so much better than anything on the planet, yet the demo9 comes with a SPV shock.
My other bike(not dh bike) is also a 4-bar, the difference between an SPV shock on it, and a fox, as far as pedaling is concerned, is huge. It doesn't pedal great with the fox, like mush. With a romic it was a much better pedaling bike. The point is that while the 4-bar pedals fairly well compared to other designs, it's not "that" big of a difference. It's not the end all in pedaling, not by far. The main advantage is really the braking, because a properly set up 4-bar will remain fairly active and constant under braking, so it doesn't need a floater.
Again, compared to the bighit, other than a 26" wheel, there is no real advantage. There is no advantage of the demo9 compared to other DH bikes. It's simply hype. |
| There is something I like about the D9... | go-ride.com
Dec 11, 2003 9:51 AM | | There is a reason that FSR link bikes with 8" or 9" of travel don't pedal so great without an anti-bob shock. That reason is wheel path. When a traditional style FSR bike gets up to 6" or more travel the path of the wheel moves more and more forward. The more a wheel moves forward the mushier the bike pedals. If you look at the angle of the shock link you will notice that it moves forward a lot more on a long stroke shock than on a 4" or 5" travel FSR bike.
However, the D9 did make an improvement over the Big Hit. The upper link that controls wheel path is long and laid flat. This keeps the wheel moving vertical, that is vertical compared to a big hit with the shock link angled upward. So, this does help the D9 pedal better than the Big hit in 8" travel mode.
Scott @ www.go-ride.com |
| people dont pedal in the 6"+ range... | zedro
Dec 11, 2003 10:04 AM | | so i dont really get your point there; you dont need to optimize pedalling over the whole 9" range (exept for keeping feedback at a minimum).
As for the more vertical path, it was only required because of the short chainstays mated to a 26" over 9" of travel. Go back to my first point and i doubt it has anything to do with pedalling ability.
But regardless of the reasons for the change in linkage geometry (which no one is really complaining about), the chainstay shock mount arrangement is completly rediculous, and is seemingly only an uncreative way of keeping the shock lower down. They could of instead mounted the shock 'rocker' style (ie. Stinky, Banchee...) and kept that rediculous chainstay in the design waste bin. Just IMO of course. |
| No, "walking beam" rocker style doesn't work well... | knollybikes.com
Dec 11, 2003 10:40 AM | | This is because to achieve a decent shock stroke length to rear travel ratio, the shock should have about 3" of stroke for 9" of travel. Putting a 9" eye2eye shock in the vertical position of a walking beam bike becomes a big problem: You need to have a high top tube which reduces standover height. The rocker links get really long (i.e. a la Dare) and the whole rocker linkage has to be moved up vertically to ensure that the shock achieves the correct style of suspension rate.
Now you have the problems that these bikes have (i.e. Scream in 8" mode or Dare): you either have to use a higher shock ratio with high spring rates (i.e. Scream) or you have to use really long and high rocker links (i.e. Dare) which interfere with the seat and the rider's ass under compression. Additionally, the straight seat tube now becomes an issue; the forward path of the wheel causes it to hit the seat tube. This is covered under Knolly's patent pending suspension IP.
I agree that the demo 9 is a bit over done in the chainstay department, but i don't think that chainstay driven bikes are inherently a bad idea at all.
Zedro is totally correct that optimizing for pedaling performance beyond about 6" of travel is a waste of time from a pedaling perspective, but very important from the pedal feedback perspective. And, I think that his comments about the short chainstays, 26" wheel mated to a 9" travel frame are totally bang on.
Noel Buckley
www.knollybikes.com |
| The top link on a yeti DH9(but more than that,) | Jm_
Dec 11, 2003 11:01 AM | | is essentially doing the same thing, yes it has kind of a high top tube, but it's not super crazy either.
One has to think though, with some of the CNCed bottom brackets out there, like Turner or my old Cheeta used, that you could CNC a bottom braket piece so as to fit the shock as low as possible, in other words right above the BB(notice how the yeti's is up a few inches), and basically make the bottom bracket area and tubes fit "around" the shock. Considering how much engineering specialized put into making the demo9 work, with the fancy tube attachements and such, it is surely not out of the question.
If you did a CNC design and basically made the lower part of the shock fit "within" you could lower that 2.75-3" shock around 4" it seems at least, maybe it's too much CNCing and engineering, but it seems doable. |
| Have been down that road... | knollybikes.com
Dec 11, 2003 4:41 PM | | My first designs ended up basically being 7+ inch Turner RFX's. I have several models that have used exactly what you are talking about, to try and get the rocker arms lower down and allow for longer shocks. There are problems though (aren't there always?). The issue with doing this is the piggyback resevoir gets in the way. The BB shell has to be made HUGELY long to ensure proper clearance for the shock under full compression and/or to allow for easy adjustment (ever tried to adjust the preload compression on a Balfa BB7?). You could arguably do it with a Romic, but even they are going to a piggy back shock now. If you extende the BB out 4-5 inches in front, you end up with a battering ram in front of your chain rings.
Then, that doesn't solve the issue with the tire interfering with the seat or seat tube, or having to use really long rocker links to ensure proper shock rates.
I'm not sure what Zedro means - kind of like a four bar version of the Kona Stab Primo?
We should just start a MTBR Design & Engineering forum...
Noel Buckley
www.knollybikes.com |
| no... | zedro
Dec 11, 2003 5:10 PM | | like a 'true 4 bar' version of the Primo :b.
Anyways, i was just mouthing off, if i had the blueprints then maybe i could suggest something halfway reasonable to modding their design :).
A design and engineering forum eh...man that would be a brutal ego killing ground.... |
| Not to mention... | knollybikes.com
Dec 11, 2003 5:41 PM | | that you could just lurk and rip off designs!
How's YOUR bike doing these days anyway...
Noel Buckley
www.knollybikes.com |
| was built, now almost built.... | zedro
Dec 11, 2003 6:19 PM | | well it was built but i broke a store bought crappy rod right off the bat (the crappy rod matched the self-affirmed crappy design...the perfect excuse to change it right away :). I since changed the linkage around a bit, lost some adjustabilty but kept relatively the same output and its a little more solid overall. I just have some fab work in the garage tomorrow and should be on the road after i get my shoulder bolts in. I missed the trail closure deadline so i slacked on gettin things runnin, only tobaggan hills now :(. So 99.999% there.
But already i'm workin on something different now, involving a new type of hush hush frame mounted tranny that may or may not work (the devils in the details on this one). If i get a real job with some spare change i might start on proofing the concept on a bench test. The beauty is i can probably use most of the current bikes frame 'modules' for a running chassis test platform, just swap out the backbone and fore-swingarm section. Fun fun fun.
BTW, know any job openings out west? :) |
| was built, now almost built.... | knollybikes.com
Dec 11, 2003 6:34 PM | | Sounds like you're having fun with the frame - keep your new one hush hush, in case you end up developing something cool. Then you don't have to run around at the end if you want to protect it (it is fairly cheap to file a provisional patent).
About jobs:
well, you can always check the tech BC joblist...
www.bctechnology.com
That is always a good start. I don't know of any personally opening up. You're Mech Eng - right?
I think you have to be creative and really treat "finding a job" as a full time job. It should be your JOB to find a new job. I know that sounds lame, but most people I know who have been successful in getting and keeping work have hunted around through contacts and just pursued every available link.
Noel Buckley
www.knollybikes.com |
| was built, now almost built.... | zedro
Dec 11, 2003 6:41 PM | | ya i fully realise its a job in itself, even my police buddy after going through all the official hoops and hurdles took half a year of running around, even when he knew exactly where all the available work sources were. Might be heading off to Calgary to see some buddies after X-Mas, so i might as well look into things down that end. |
| Calgary is cool... | knollybikes.com
Dec 12, 2003 12:13 AM | | no pun intended :)
Ya, you have to make that decision: how far do you want to go for work. When I left my last job, I was very seriously looking at moving from Vancouver to Phoenix as I was doing a lot of optical and opto-mechanical design; Phoenix is an optics hotbed. However, it was right when the bottom of the IT market was about to fall out, so it is probably a really good thing that I didn't take the job. My current (non-bike) job is great (and the company has fantastic culture), but it's a lot of work having basically two full time jobs right now.
Everyone is going to tell you this and it is so ABSOLUTELY TRUE: you need to network the crap out of yourself. It's tough when you're fresh out of school; most professionals that I know say that they took 2-4 years to really "find themselves" after school. I have some friends who are just rediculously networked: there is actually book out right now (I think it's called "the tipping point" or something) that talks about how these key people reach a critical "network" mass - kind of like being a Kazaa-lite super node - and all of a sudden they are intertwined with a huge number of contacts.
I haven't read the book at all, so I could be totally wrong, but that was the jist I got from my friend.
So, I don't know what else to say. Let us know where you end up!
Noel Buckley
www.knollybikes.com |
| that is both scary... | zedro
Dec 12, 2003 11:42 AM | | and oddly reassuring. Thanx :) |
| Do you mean this bike???... | ---Matt---
Dec 11, 2003 7:32 PM | | Do you guys mean this bike???
A Stab Primo but with a horst style linkage on the back?
I've always wondered how well this bike would pedal???
Here's the specs:
Material........Oversized butted AL7005.
Travel.........7 inches (measured)
Shock........Manitou swinger SPV
Damping........6 way adjustable.
Colour.........Call for availability
Dropouts.......... vertical
Pivots.......... sealed bearing
Just thought I'd mention it
---Matt--- |
| probably pedals like an Ellsworth Dare... | zedro
Dec 11, 2003 8:16 PM | | by the looks of it. But thats the basic configuration i was thinking of, but compressed like the D9 |
| Downside of that design is virtually no seat post adjustment. NM | CraigH
Dec 12, 2003 10:44 AM | | nm |
| "MTBR Design & Engineering forum" | CraigH
Dec 11, 2003 7:10 PM | | There is one, sort of.
Here:
http://forums13.consumerreview.com/crforum?14@238.edRxaH59obj^65227@.ef78dba
It doesn't get much traffic, so... |
| so how come.... | zedro
Dec 11, 2003 11:10 AM | | when the shock is mounted like on the BigHit, the shock is only a couple of inches from the frame/link pivot, so i dont see why the link length would be all that drastic if you mounted the shock on the other side compressing downward (or more towards the trie) instead of up.
Of course i havent done extensive FSR type designs....hmm maybe i should try and re-engineer this one for fun...:) |
| I didn't say people pedal in the 6" + range... | go-ride.com
Dec 11, 2003 11:59 AM | | It is a relationship of the more travel a bike has the more sag it has. Most of the Specilized style FSR bikes I have ridden have a forward wheel path once the wheel passes about 2" - 2.5" of travel. A typical 6" bike will sag about 2" and a bit more under each pedal stroke, now the wheel is traveling forward in relationship to the bike. If you take a 9" travel bike with 3" of sag it is already in the forward movement before you even start to pedal. That's why the M1 needed the Progressive shock so badly. This really is a lot more complicated than my short description, because you need to take into account chainring sizes and pivot locations, but the generalization is pretty accurate.
There are ways to avoid this:
1. Raise the pivot located near the BB. That can be tough if you are using a front derailleur.
2. Lay the upper the upper link flater so it moves the wheel more vertically. This is tough if you don't use a Ellsworth/Turner RFX style linkage.
3. Raise the BB height which causes the wheel to move back more before it comes forward. Of course this also takes away from the bikes ability to corner.
You guys responded like I said the D9 is the greatest bike ever. The only thing I like about it is the vertical wheel path. Otherwise its not a bike for me. For that matter any Specialized that is $2800 for the frame is not a bike for me.
I've said this a lot of times before, but one more time. There is no perfect bike design. They all have flaws, some of them much more than others, when used for one type of riding or another. You need to test as many bikes as you can and pick the one you liked best for the amount of $ you are willing to spend. If someone tells you their bike is the worlds greatest and there can be no other then they don't have a lot of experience riding bikes, or they aren't telling you the truth.
Scott @ www.go-ride.com |
| Good Points | Jeremy R
Dec 11, 2003 10:12 AM | | Yeah those are good points, but you forgot one thing.
Bikes are now reviewed online, by people who can somehow do a complete
review of a bike, by looking at a picture on the internet. :)
I have actually ridden a proto Demo 9 that was built up as a race bike, boxxer etc.. It was the plushest feeling 4 bar I have ever felt, and it pedaled really well. The bike was a local Specialized Pro's bike, and he Killed with it all season. He said it blew the Bighits out of the water, and had the results to back it up.
But then again, what does he know, he did not form an opinion from a picture. :) |
| no one commented on how it rode... | zedro
Dec 11, 2003 11:06 AM | | but you do have to look at a bike and agree with its overall design before you buy it.
BTW, i did try out the Demo9. It felt stiff to me (i'm 165lbs geared), yet another 130lbs rider was bottoming it out like craze (tire hitting the seat). Of course the shock wasent set up properly, but still. Not worth the coin IMO.
It did pedal pretty nice though, just wasent active enough. |
| Obviously | Jeremy R
Dec 11, 2003 12:09 PM | | Man, I wish I knew how many times, I have heard someone say,
"Yeah, he only weighed 130 and was bottoming out 'insert product that you are basing here.' " You guys must ride with alot of etheopians.
So in conclusion, "A marathon runner from Kenya was bottoming out a
shock that was not setup for him, therefore a Demo 9 is not worth the money." Allrighty. |
| you missed what i said.... | zedro
Dec 11, 2003 1:52 PM | | on the same setup, a 165lbs midly-aggressive type found it too stiff, but a 130lbs aggressive rider was bottoming it out. This means its a regressive design, one of the reasons i wouldnt get it.
Geez, you really think i'm that dumb? |
| Other points about lighter weight... | go-ride.com
Dec 11, 2003 9:31 AM | | Yes, accelerating a light bike is easier than a heavy bike, with the same suspension design and shock type. However, IMO even more important is maneuverability. When racing or even out riding for fun you lift your bike, slightly, up and down continuously. Being able to do this is how Pros ride so smooth and carry speed through rough terrain. A lighter bike is much less fatiguing to ride this way. This topic goes a lot farther than just DHing. I think it is just as important when you are out DJing or Street riding. Lighter bikes are easier to do tricks and lift over obstacles and just plain have fun.
Scott @ www.go-ride.com |
| actually, I know EXACTLY what you mean | Jm_
Dec 11, 2003 11:46 AM | | And it's something I steadfastily believe.
It is why the difference between a 35lb bike and 45lb bike is more than 10lbs, because you aren't simply pedaling a 45lb bike, every pedal stroke is an accelleration, every change in direction is an accelleration, you are constantly accellerating the bike.
I've been on enough all-day rides on 37-33lb bikes to know this is true, and that the guys riding the 27-26lb strictly-XC bikes are not just riding something a few pounds lighter, its the constant effect of having to accellerate a much lighter mass that makes it easier for them to ride, while I have to put out a huge effort to ride with em. |
| Why do you care about weight on a DH bike? | fatlip
Dec 10, 2003 7:12 PM | | wow, simple logic, thanks. |
| I like this>" visual rehash for marketing purposes"........ | Beau
Dec 10, 2003 7:14 PM | | couldn't have said it better myself. Looks ugly if ya ask me. BTW, why would you buy a Big Hit if the Demo 9 is better, does that mean the Big Hit didn't work right?? If a design works (Big Hit) Why make something different??? I shy away from anything that is a first year/generation model. |
| ok, once again... | fatlip
Dec 10, 2003 7:21 PM | | 9 (not 8) inches.
built for the fork (no choppers please).
warranty as strong as specialized.
how can a marketing rehash have such different specs?
is a specialized enduro the same as chump jumper? no, it has more travel and different geometry. not much but different. this is no bighit. it is the next generation. funny, i kinda look like my dad, but not exactly. i'm better too... |
| there are no advantages to this bike | Jm_
Dec 10, 2003 7:27 PM | | compared to all other 4-bar DH bikes, compared to most DH bikes, and compared to the bighit the only advantage is the 26" wheel. You can put an avalanche on a bighit by the way for 9" of travel, and that'd be a lot plusher than a Demo9, but that aside, 8" vrs 9" is not a big difference, and the quality of travel is important. The Demo9 is regressive, while the bighit is progressive. Progressive is better, although for the most tuning options linear can work better for an SPV-shock equiped bike, but then the Demo9 isn't linear, it's regressive. The M1 is linear for example. Regressive is basically a bad idea any way you hash it. It can be overcome with the SPV shock, but still, better to start off with a linear design, then it could accept more shocks, with no disadvantages. |
| Looks and Marketing is all a Demo is | RFXR
Dec 10, 2003 8:11 PM | | As Jm has said the bighit is aging so specialized had to release a new bike to not look like they are slackin in the FR/DH R&D dept. But they went the wrong way with this bike. They made a bike thats heavier than its competetors, and has regressive leverage. Turner redesigned the DHR for 04 and made the bike lighter, cheaper, and better looking, and when designing a bike you want DHers to buy and hopefully race with, why make it heavier than its predecessor. Specialized thinks that through clever marketing many potential buyers look past the weight and buy it. And to top it all off the whopping $2710 price tag on a Demo frame is insane, and unpractical. Where do they come off selling their bike for more or the same you can get a lighter better crafted hand made bike for. I bet we wont be seeing the Demo next year unless it is revised, or the price is dropped to under 2 grand where it should be.
Just my 2 cents
Don |
| It looks different, hence people think it's really different | Jm_
Dec 10, 2003 8:19 PM | | not to mention several people started calling it a "6-bar".
It's really pretty smart, from a marketing point of view. On the other hand, the price is going to kill it like you say. |
| When You Think Of Spending $2000-3000 on a Frame...... | RFXR
Dec 10, 2003 8:49 PM | | You think of Foes, Turner, Ventana, Intense, and Yeti to name a few. I think that Specialized should sell that frame for arounf $1500 and then it would sell. If specialized can't afford to sell that frame for 1500-2000, then they really screwed up because a Banshee with a 5th is like $1300, now lets add on $200 or so for all of the extra metal on a Demo, and there is a $1500 msrp. It looks like specialized is pricing it extremely high so people think its so great, Its almost like specialized is charging people to ride a bike with their name on it like many european automakers do, but this is specialized mass production giant, not a small north american company known for their high craftsmanship.
Don |
| they're pricing it high because.... | zedro
Dec 10, 2003 11:58 PM | | of the elaborate frame construction. The same deal with the Trek Diesel; elaborate frame construction but in the end just a single pivot which nobody wanted to pay for. |
| I think it's because if they don't price it so high.... | sub6
Dec 11, 2003 12:33 AM | | ...it won't be any better than the Big Hit. Can't have that, now can we? |
| Progressive vs. Regressive - HOW? | Jake Wakefeild
Dec 15, 2003 8:38 AM | | How are you determining what is progressive or regressive? |
| there are no advantages to this bike | Jake Wakefeild
Dec 15, 2003 8:51 AM | | No advantages eh? What about these features:
Short 16.7" CS length
Working front derailleur (it is a freeride bike first)
Full 9" of rear travel
Tire won't hit saddle or frame when bottomed like most designs
26" rear wheel
Generous seat post adjustment
Adjustable geometry
Also, I have personally weighed a lot of frames (without shock).
Intense M1 - 10.5 lbs
Big Hit - 8.5 lbs
Demo 9 - 10.5 lbs
VP Free - a lot more
V10 - even more
According to Specialized, 4-bar is first and foremost fully active and fully independent from braking and pedaling forcing. This is crucial for DH and freeride. Do you really want your suspension stiffening under braking? All VPP and single pivots do this.
Pedal bob is secondary for a freeride bike, which is what the SPV handles. Furthermore, the progressive damping of the Curnutt valve is far more beneficial that the pedal platform in this application. Remember, the damping is very light at high speeds during the first half of the stroke. This gets the wheel moving out of the way as quickly as possible. Then in the last half of the stroke, the damping ramps up to avoid bottoming. Ask anyone who has ridden a 5th element or SPV and they'll tell you that the high speed damping characteristics far outweigh the pedal platform features. |
| jake must work for specialized... | call420_
Dec 29, 2003 12:12 PM | | His weights are biased in the spec direction...
IIntense M1 with shock, medium size, that weighs a CH under 11 lbs.
V10 with shock and float kit, medium: 12.5 lbs.
VP-Free with shock and axle, medium: 11.3 lbs.
I don't know how much a Demo9 weighs, when I asked someone at Specialized at Interbike they said 10.5 lbs with shock. I've since been told by a reliable source that a complete bike weighed 54 lbs, so that must be wishful thinking
Since a Manitou Swinger with a steel spring weights almost 2.5 lbs, I think its important to include that. |
| Did you weigh these yourself? | Jake Wakefeild
Dec 29, 2003 1:01 PM | | A Demo 9 without shock is 10.5 lbs.
A current M1 without shock is also 10.5 lbs.
A stock Demo 9 complete bike out of the box weighs 46 lbs.
Steel Spring Swinger weighs 2.38 lbs.
Steel Spring 5th Element is 2.53 lbs.
Ti spring saves about .74 lbs.
VP-Free is not on the market yet - who do you know that weighed one?
I weighed these myself. Where did you get your weights? Your reliable source is flat out wrong. |
| I hear Bullits are pretty nice!...............................nm | Beau
Dec 10, 2003 7:27 PM | | |
| What was your gripe with Foes? | Stain
Dec 10, 2003 8:57 PM | | I've only heard good things about thier customer service. I'm interested in what your experiance with them was as I'm probaly going to be getting one soon. |
| Yeah, what was your gripe with Foes? | hypoxic
Dec 10, 2003 10:43 PM | | They have one of, if not THE BEST customer service and warranty track records. For instance, I know for a fact that they've offered new frames at cost to people who've bought second hand frames (to which no contractual warranty applies) which have broken.
They're also really good about warrantying and replacing products which break.
I stand to be corrected here, but I also believe that they haven't had one manufacturer-related failure on any post '02 Monos.
By the way, I'll be ordering a new DHS mono for next year ... to replace the 1999 model I've been riding since the beginning of 2000. |
| Granted the price will still be high but... | D Buck
Dec 11, 2003 7:54 AM | | I was told by a rep that the prices on the website are high to protect the dealers. So you think you are getting a deal. So in reality the bike probably will sell for much less than the price on their web page. I think it would be a cool bike to ride, but I like my Bighit, tried and true
LAter
Dbuck |
| The Demo9/888 look a lot like 64 degrees, not 66... | go-ride.com
Dec 11, 2003 9:19 AM | | I getting this measurement by copying the large picture of the complete D9/888 from Specialized website, and then rotating the image until the fork sits at 90 degrees. It took slightly over 26 degrees of rotation to do that. Granted, sometimes images can be deceiving, but this one looks pretty close.
I also saw this bike at Interbike and we had one at our shop a couple of months ago. Every time I've seen one they look a lot slacker than 66 with the 888 on it. It's really not that big of a deal, it just means with a standard 7" fork the D9 is about 66 which is pretty standard for a DH race bike. However, it seems obvious that it was not designed to be 66 with a 888.
Scott @ GO-RIDE.COM |
| that's kind of flawed in a few ways though; | Jm_
Dec 11, 2003 10:03 AM | | because exactly how much sag is the rear of the bike supposed to run compared to the front? If the 888 runs with a good amount of sag, it may not be as drastic as it looks in a static situation.
Another important fact is that the SPV shock on the demo9 won't compress during G-outs and turns, so that is going to effectively steepen the head angle, in fact there are a few people that believe the SPV shocks resist the brake-squat somewhat too, even if they dont, they don't compress as much for the other two situations, and that's going to make the situation "not as bad", but the handling won't be as constant either. |
| Not from my experience... | go-ride.com
Dec 11, 2003 4:55 PM | | It is true that I have not ridden the D9, but I've seen a number of them being ridden and the sag looked pretty standard for a 9" bike and the HA looked very very slack. I have, however, ridden SPV shocks for the last two seasons (Progressive 5th & Curnutt). They do compress in G-outs and when set up properly in corners. I wouldn't want a shock that doesn't compress corners. That compression is what loads the bike and makes it stick in the corners. SPV shocks actually recommend up to 50% sag on a DH bike, which is a lot more then the normal 35%. So, I would estimate the D9 to run 3" to 4" of sag which is a lot.
Scott @ www.go-ride.com |
| Advantages of Demo Nine are... | ID -Rida
Dec 11, 2003 9:51 AM | | Full Length Seat Post
26" wheel or 24" if you like(advantage over bighit)
Lower center of Gravity
More Rigid Rear End
More Progressive Shock Placement
9 inches of travel
150mm through axle hub
16.7" chain stays
Tire Clearance
Warranty
Forged Head Tube Design to take more abuse
Designed to protect the Rear Der
Stand Over Height
Front Der Compatability
I have done extensive testing on this frame/bike and it kicks ass... the "small guys" are not building any better bike (notice I did not say that their bikes are worse... just not any better... well no, definately some of the others are worse now that I think about it).
What can a foes, m1, or ventanna do that a demo9 can't? Nothing!! At level of frame it really comes down to rider talent anyways. Didn't we have a pro win the over-all world cup dh championships with a single pivot bike and no floating rear brake most the year? Yeah, I though so... |
| your missing the point tho... | zedro
Dec 11, 2003 10:06 AM | | we like to rip things apart here. Gives us stuff to type about.... |
| many of those are flat out wrong; | Jm_
Dec 11, 2003 10:12 AM | | "26" wheel or 24" if you like(advantage over bighit)"
Yeah, but compared to every other bike, not an advantage.
"Lower center of Gravity"
As it has been said before in this thread, the effects of lowering the CG but increasing the weight by a few pounds will cancel each other out. A heavy bike(frame weight ~14lbs) is going to be sluggish to push around regardless of the CG.
More Rigid Rear End
Actually, the opposite could be said about the top link, as it's MUCH longer now. Whether it's more rigid or not is hard to tell, and it's a major flaw of the FSR design, it's not something that can't be designed around, but compared to bikes like the Foes Mono DHS, FSR bikes are quite flexy.
"More Progressive Shock Placement"
Completely wrong. The new shock placement is regressive. The bighit was progressive.
"9 inches of travel"
It's not the amount of travel when looking at 8 vrs 9, but the quality. A progressive bike like the bighit with only 8" may be plusher and absorb bumps better than the regressive Demo9. Just because it has 9" isn't an advantage, especially since it's not progressive.
150mm through axle hub
Not bad, but I like my 165mm rear hub better, it shifts so easy and the chainline is just awesome.
"16.7" chain stays"
Are an advantage in some situations, and a disadvantage in others.
"Warranty"
For the $2700 dollars the frame costs, you can buy some pretty awesome frames from other companies, and they'll stand behidn their product at least as much as specialized will. Foes, Titus, etc.
"Forged Head Tube Design to take more abuse"
Headtube diameter is directly proportional to the strength, a 1.5 headtube will take a lot more abuse, and resist ovalization to a much greater extent. Specialized needs to catch up to Iron Horse.
"Front Der Compatability"
Again, many other bikes can take them too, my Iron Horse SGS pro will, a Foes Fly will, Titus Supermoto will, etc. |
| Agreed | knollybikes.com
Dec 11, 2003 11:05 AM | | The forged 1.125 head tube is a waste - that will add considerably to the cost of the bike, and the stength IS proportional to the diameter. Additionally, the 1.5 headtube standard defines MINIMUM cup skirt insertion lengths - the 1.125" head tube diameter does NOT. A 5mm wall thickness 1.5 headtube can easily resist ovalization more than a forged 8-10mm (~3/8") wall thickness 1.125" head tube.
The seat tube is NOT full length: it is interupted. Sure, it goes down farther than a bighit, but a 6' rider will need to drop the seat by at least 7" normally if they are riding in difficult terrain.
I do like the 150 hub - 150mm hubs are great and achieve excellent chainline with a 128mm BB spacing.
I think that four bar linkage bikes CAN be made to have stiff rear ends (we made one), however, it needs to be done right and will certainly cost more (better pivots, more engineering, stronger linkages) to do than building a stiff single pivot.
As usual, my biased $0.02
Noel Buckley
www.knollybikes.com |
| the rear end did feel plenty stiff.... | zedro
Dec 11, 2003 11:14 AM | | that upper link is quite built up with a welded ovalish tube bridging the two sides, making it a solid unit.
Wow, Specialised would be happy the bike is getting so much attention, good or bad... |
| Mostly bad though | RFXR
Dec 11, 2003 1:08 PM | | but on the opposite of the demo there is knolly's bike which looks and is better than a demo in almost every way, and it appears to be just as if not more elaborate, and im not sure of knollys price, but im guessing its cheaper. Now i'd much rather have a nice handcrafted bike than some overpriced thing made in a tiawainese factory by someone who couldnt tell you what a bottom bracket is.
Don |
| Price... | knollybikes.com
Dec 11, 2003 3:52 PM | | Just for the record, I think that Specialized has some of the nicest looking overseas made frames on the market. There welding is almost as good as what comes out of Sapa (Ano Inc) and probably easily as good as what comes out of Kenesis.
Frame price is not finalized yet, but will be in the same ball park: probably around $2600-2800 USD with the Progressive 5th Element rear shock depending upon the CDN-USD exchange rate. We are certainly not planning to sell thousands of V-tach frames in our first year :)
However, many of the comments are valid. As a new company, there is certainly an inherent risk as far as warranty is concerned: even if we have a fair warranty and excellent customer support, the company could be poorly managed and be bankrupt within one to two years. Knolly, (while remaining a wholly singular rider owned company) has acquired business experts to develop and mentor the company to ensure that it is set up properly and realistically. We are hoping to avoid as many of the pitfalls as possible, but it will certainly be a bumpy road at the least. I am sure that we will learn many lessons with our first production run in 2004.
I'm not even going to reply to the zealotous flame bait below. Jm_'s already ripped his initial post to shreds. That is par for the course of being an active member of any discussion forum and representing a company (i.e. the flack that GO-ride and Evil received in another recent thread).
While my comments may be valid engineering wise (supported by several of the local "board experts"), they will always been seen as biased due to my position within the industry. However, I think that my comments have been solidly based in engineering facts, and I have simply never said that we have "designed the best bike ever". I have designed a solid, aggressive freeride bike that eliminates many compromises with four bar linkage bikes (ok, apart from cost!). The technology is easily portable to other types of suspension frames, including linkage actuated single pivots. Additionally, the bike is an absolute blast to ride and that is what really matters.
Noel Buckley
www.knollybikes.com |
| Knollybikes is on of the small guys I was thinking of when I | ID -Rida
Dec 11, 2003 1:05 PM | | said I though the Demo9 was definately better than a few of them. |
| Now why would you say that? | Pat T.®
Dec 13, 2003 12:07 AM | | The Demo 9 is an overly complex single pivot that Specialized is trying to push onto the public as new and inventive. There is nothing new about adding more tubes and weight to a single pivot bike. But the V-Tack is a damn good design, I don't remember seeing a bike like it before, and you have not ridden it...so how do you know it's not as stiff or as good (much better IMHO) as a Demo 9? I think if your going to trash Knolly's design you should at least have ridden his bike to back up what you say. |
| Set the record straight on Demo9 | Specialized_Eng_Director
Dec 13, 2003 3:36 PM | | Hi all,
Glad to see the 20 different users talking about the Demo9.
The engineering and testing we have invested in this frame is far beyond your imagination. Our testing lab has 4 MTS machines (no one has this investment) and we've been using them to develop this chassis. We have numerous pros & field testers around the world, not to mention several of the bike industry's finest & most knowledgable engineers and product guys working on this chassis.
Some of the statements a few of you have made are blatantly false and unsubstantiated. I need to set the record straight:
1) More rigid rear end: yes this is true. Statements to contrary are false and without merit. We have the lab to test & know this is a fact.
2) Progressive linkage: This frame was designed with a progressive rate rear suspension linkage and progressive is what we are selling. We think it is tuned perfectly. Unless you have ridden this chassis, you don't know and you are just another talking mouth taking a guess.
3) Lifetime warranty: yes we stand behind this product
4) Forged Headtube: This design is stronger than any other headtube we have tested. 1.5 vs 1.125 is a dumb and uneducated argument. The headtube diameter on a double/triple clamp simply does not matter compared to the materials, forging and engineering design paremeters. We do the lab and field testing that others simply do not conduct. This frame takes enormous front end loads and its fatigue life is simply staggering. We've done the testing to know.
5) Quality of suspension: 9" progressive suspension with all the features of this frame isn't matched by any when you compare point for point in design. You can speculate all you want, you can pretend you know something when you don't but at the end of the day, the Demo9 has the best quality of suspension Specialized has ever offered.
6) Front derailleur compatibility: We have 16.7" chainstays, 9" real rear wheel travel and front derailleur compatibility. Others may have 1 or 2 of these but not all 3. If someone else has all 3.....Great, I'm happy. This is a very difficult design challenge to pull off. Have you done it?
7) Pedaling performance: This suspension linkage went thru many iterations and pedals really well. If you haven't ridden it (or you rode it in a parking lot with someone else's setup) then you really don't know what you are talking about and you are just offering your speculative opinion.
8) Vertical wheel path: We have vertical wheel path. In the last few inches of travel the wheel must arc forward; otherwise the suspension would have killer pedal kickback. You cannot have 9" rear wheel travel, 100% vertical wheel path and not have killer pedal kickback. We make sure the vertical wheel path is tuned for the travel range it is most important.
Glad to set the record straight. Hope you had a great ride today. Thanks for your interest in the Demo9.
Mark Schroeder, Director of Engineering
Specialized Bicycles |
| progressive or regressive | Jake Wakefeild
Dec 15, 2003 9:31 AM | | to JM_
How is it that you are so sure the Demo 9 is regressive? How are you figuring this out?
I see it as progressive. Just want to compare notes. |
| re: 888/demo9 complaints | Tarpon
Dec 11, 2003 1:27 PM | | This has been a good thread. Can we do the same hash through on the VP Free next?
How do I get this level of participation in such a thread? Do I just need to make wild and rediculus claims about how terrific the VP Free is?
Seriously, I would like to hear this level of discussion. |
| re: 888/demo9 complaints | its a POS get over it
Dec 11, 2003 1:59 PM | | An orange 223 has that travel, significantly more tire clearance and is about 6-8 lbs lighter.
Next question? |
| re: 888/demo9 complaints | Swine
Dec 11, 2003 10:35 PM | | this.....is....amazing!, mtbr just had a thread with more then 10posts, where everyone was intellegent. most everyone was composed in their posts, and stated what they thought, and the rest of the mtbr pop replied with factual evidence. there was very little "specialized is the best, your stupid, look at it...it has to be the best". it brings a tear to my eye!
(the 223 traded out suspension performance for pedaling efficiency :P |
| d9 | ilfreerider
Dec 12, 2003 10:07 AM | | some thuoghts :
1.specilized has done a good job creating hype around this bike and for that , i give em tumbs up!
2.this bike is one of the sexiest bikes around imho and im sure that it will preform very good.
3.this is not a dh race bike and spec doesnt promote them as such. wether or not it will preform well on races remains to be seen.
4.frame wheight is (from what ive heard) around 10 lbs , and not 14 as said. i could be wrong , this is from a review on nsmb.
5.price is too high for a big company such as spec and is unjustifyed compared to prices of other companies (ie-turner - 2195$ ,canfield f-1 2250$ , bb7 - under 2000$ , v-10 - around 2000$...)
6.the main problem of this frame (surprised n/b mentioned it) as far as im concerned is wheel base . the m is 46.6"(!) and the l is 47.7"(!!!) - what where u thinking spec? common ? have u ever ridden a l v-10 , its a freaking bus. and nobody on earth could justify a front der freeride rig with such a long wb !
7.aside of the wheel base and price - i want one badly!!!
p.s - i ride a bh now and love it ,i wish spec had invested all that money in finding a way to squeeze a 26" an the bh! (looks like an eay one for their eng.) |
| Wheelbase | Jake Wakefeild
Dec 15, 2003 10:22 AM | | Rear triangle is fixed at a short 16.7"
That means that the wheelbase is a funtion of rider compartment plus fork length, fork rake and head tube angle.
Three sizes are available, with only the rider compartment (otherwise known as the top tube length) changing. You should be able to select the size with the wheelbase you like. |
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