|   ISIS Bottom Brackets: What's going on here? | Kittmer
Jan 2, 2004 7:42 PM | | I'm in the market for a new crank set and bottom bracket. I am heavily inclined to purchase Race Face cranks for a number of reasons (performance, quality, ring options, Canadian) but I'm having doubts over their ISIS bottom brackets.
All the reviews I read are either "the seals are crap and then the bearings blew out" or "hey this thing works fine". What's going on? Is there an issue with the bearings, and has there been a resolution?
What's the deal in general with ISIS bottom brackets. There are very few reviews posted for any of the products so I'm looking for some experienced gearheads to shout out.
Happy 2004 |
| re: ISIS Bottom Brackets: What's going on here? | SilverStar
Jan 2, 2004 9:02 PM | | I was in the same situation as you as I wanted to try RaceFace cranksets for the first time (I've always used Shimano and wanted to try something new). RF rings and cranks are really nice but their bottom brackets are very expensive. I can't remember what Tscheezy said but he said too that RF rings and cranks are nice its just that ISIS sucks---they creak are aren't very durable. I'd stick with what Tschezzy told me: stick with Shimano cranks and when the rings wear out, replace them with RF rings (not the cheap Prodigy ones) so that way you have the stiff and super Shimano Octalink bottom bracket. |
| Never bit on the ISIS BB/cranks, so I can't say I,m an experienced... | Bikeless Rider
Jan 2, 2004 9:11 PM | | ...guinea pig, but I've heard enough riders, mechanics, and people in the bike industry say they haven't had good durability with the BB to trust it to be true. If a LBS that has a fair amount of ISIS BB equiped bikes on their floor can admit the cheaper Shimano will outlast them, I don't see a reason to argue the point. Chris King's descision to hold off with his BB was mostly due to the lack of success with the ISIS system. I don't blame Race Face or any of the manufacturers that sought to develope the ISIS system, as they were up against stiff (literally) competition with Shimano's Octalink and had to work within the current size of BB shells on frames. If you really want a setup that looks to be a winner, wait 'till the March release of the Race Face 2 piece cranksets if you can. It's design looks much more intelligent than Shimano's 2 piece, utillizing one simple spindle bolt rather than a split crank arm and pinch bolts, and high load, full ball compliment bearings, with a chainline of only 48.5mm (quite good for an external bearing BB). I just saw an '04 Race Face Evolve crankset (unfortunately ISIS) on a Giant the other day, and the new rings (now incorporating shift plates) are a thing of beauty with lots of CNC machining. The 2 piece Atlas will no doubt give Shimano a run for the money, targeted to be as light and stiff as the Shimano XTR (and so far RF says they're doing well with that goal), but for about 2/3 the price! |
| You've seen the RF, tell me... | Schtoo
Jan 4, 2004 4:53 AM | | What side that 'intelligent' RF crank bolts up with please?
Granted, using a single bolt does have it's attractions and all that, but from what I have heard, RF bolt up on the chainring side. What's the %^$^%$^ point of making a stiffazell 2 piece crank if you make the break right where you want maximum rigidity??? Yes I know Shimano hold some patent and RF changed their bolt up to avoid that, but still, who the heck dreams up this stuff?
Not chewing you out, but RF just don't really impress me at ANY point. I've tried a few of their cranks now, and I still have yet to find them superior to my current lowly LX octalink in rigidity or shifting. Yes they are great if you use one ring and don't flex a square taper much, but I use 3 rings and flex '03 XTR enough to make it worried (only crank so far I can't chain-derailler grind, not quite!). If they could just simply come up with something LOGICAL to take to Shimano, I'd buy it in a &^$^%$^% heartbeat. I'd pay any money for a stiff crank I can't flex if it were not Shimano AND it made sense. So far, I have no serious options worth considering. The RF turned me off when I heard they decided to make the left crank fixed to the spindle. Heck, why not make BOTH sides attatch and shave the $$$ off the thing in production costs? Same end result, less cost. That would 1: Make sense and 2: Make me consider buying the thing.
That's why I have an '04 XT crank waiting for me at my LBS...
BTW, The XTR aint that stoopid for using a split-end crank. How many stripped splines you seen that were the result of slightly off kilter installation? The XTR simply slides in, then you tighten it up. No more stripped splines, well, installing the thing anyway. |
| Wow, that's alot of rant for someone "not chewing me out", but I'm cool with it... | Bikeless Rider
Jan 4, 2004 9:52 PM | | ...long as you understand we each are entitled to our own opinions. First off, if a spindle's splines are made to press fit and resist slip well, as I see the '04 RF to be, the fastener being on the drive side should not matter, as long as it doesn't loosen. If the drive side bolt is right (standard) threaded, it would be very hard for it to do so, as it is turning the same direction as the crank arm. Secondly, yes the Shimano system is NOT "fool proof", having smaller and more vulnerable splines, and requiring exact preload and torque to avoid issues with the bearings and the splines, I know of a LBS mechanic that partially stripped his,and if you read the many reviews on this crank, some customers have not liked the use of plastic, bad instructions, and lack of ease in installation. Of course there's other things you did not respond to like the chainline difference, warranty difference, bearing difference, price difference, etc. , all worth mentioning as well. I'm not saying Shimano makes crap, I just think their top of the line stuff could be designed better, and is overpriced. I'm also not saying that everything RF makes is great either, I absolutely will not buy ISIS, rather have an '03 XT BB/crank than that, which is still one of the best combos for the money I think. |
| Not you, the chewing was directed at RF... ;) | Schtoo
Jan 5, 2004 6:26 AM | | Nice to see someone else who understands that everyone has their own version of life, and it's cool for the other guys version to be skewed differently.
The problem I have with the new RF is that a fixed joint will always (weight for weight) be stiffer and sturdier than a 'broken' joint. Shimano jumped in first and made the fixed joint right side, RF jumped in after Shimano and to get around patents had to put it on the left side. Basically, this is not anything better than we can get now aside from '03 XTR and '04 XT. Of course, I have a genuine basis for complaint, I flex cranks a heck of alot and not just mashing them. I have a bike here (Australia) that has Suntour square tapers, and it reminded me of how flexxy square taper cranks really are. Fortunately it also runs gripshift, and the front derailler really needs that extra click to make sure I don't wear out the derailler side plates within an hour or so.
Back to Shimano and RF however. Don't think for a minute that I actually LIKE Shimano. I think they do more harm than good with their stupid policies and demands on us end consumers. However, having lived in Japan for a while, I understand why they do it. Doesn't mean I like it. However, they do let their top end stuff filter down if yer willing to wait for it. RF on the other hand do try to cater for the more 'serious' folk, and they charge a high premium for it. The problem is that I can't see the logic in paying a premium for stuff that does not do a better job in my opinion than something I can buy for 1/2 to 1/4 the price. I currently use an Octalink LX crank, and for rigidity it matches the two RF items I have tried in comparison. I cannot recall which RF products I sampled, other than one was about Y20,000 and the other was close to Y45,000. The LX crank is available for Y9500 (list). Yes the LX is heavier and not so 'strong', but that's not what I need. I need something that resists flex, and the LX fitted the ticket.
Unfortunately, I still make that poor LX crank flex too much for my liking which is why I will install an '04 XT crank this month. I guess I would be that X% that really gives stuff a hard time. Specifically, I give cranks torture because I that's the way I'm bolted together. Which means I need something that's bolted together properly.
I guess I'd really have to test that RF crank for a while to see if it would be worth the $$$. Unfortunately, I'm not gonna pay the asking price for something that isn't quite worth it. That's why I wont buy an XTR crank either. Too much buck, not enough bang. I'll take the XT version at half the price thanks.
BTW, are you planning on getting a set of the RF cranks in question? If you do, please let me know if they will stand up to torture without flexing too much?
Stu. |
| Couple of points about the new RF.... | Ventanarama
Jan 5, 2004 7:09 AM | | RF is doing the spindle attached to the left because their research and testing showed that it's more often the left that actually comes loose more easily. In addition, some features of the spindle itself and the way it bolts I think will make it even stiffer than the Shimano. It has better chainline + chainline adjustment, no side-load on the bearings when tightening the bolt, and the bearings feel smoother out of the box and look to be sealed better. Even better, the wholesale cost on the new RF will be LESS than XT. Originally was looking like it would be slightly more, but Shimano has been raising prices. Personally I think they'll be nice and a good alternative to XT, which recently has been the most bang for the buck.
Larry Mettler
http://www.mtnhighcyclery.com |
| $$$ kwestion. | Schtoo
Jan 7, 2004 5:24 AM | | Alright, thou hast peaked my curiosity there thine very fine fellow.
What kinda $$$ difference are we talking here. Is it something reasonable, like $20-30 or a nothing $5-10.
Ya see, where I will buy the crankset happens to about 2 hours drive time from the Shimano factory. If the RF isn't a reasonable amount of $$$ less, then it's gonna cost me about $50 more than the XT which is too much to throw at something that I have not seen or tried.
The problem is, I don't live in the US/Canada and as ^%#^%$ always, you buy anything elsewhere and it cost pretty hefty dollars. Shimano is actually the dirt cheap option in Japan, and it's reasonable enough in Australia. The alternatives are usually completely unreasonably priced, but still sell because of reputation. But not very much...
Whoa, just realized I went into a whiny, panty waisted rant there.
Ok, you know what I need to know. I hope that I will for once have a REAL choice in parts. So far I've been forced into Shimano, Fox Forx and Specialized because I have no options. Not just price option, no option. SRAM is unobtanium, Fox is stoopid cheap and Specialized have an international breeding program I'm sure. |
| On the crank/BB integration... | Boj
Jan 5, 2004 5:18 AM | | Just wanted to mention that having a non drive side crank integrated with a BB spindle is a good idea.
Power on the right side crank is transferred directly into the chainrings (without going through BB), whereas left side crank is the one that has to have power transferred through BB spindle. So if the aim of integrated BB concept is to improve stiffness it would have to be integration of non drive side crank and spindle. |
| Isis is dying and will go away. | Tscheezy
Jan 3, 2004 10:56 AM | | The wheels are falling off, so I wouldn't jump on this wagon. To make the spindle so huge (and stiff- that's good) they had to make the ball bearings really tiny (and susceptible to corrosion and wear- that's bad). It's not that the Isis bearings inherently have inferior seals, it is that they simply cannot tolerate contamination the way normal bbs with large roller balls can. And let's face it, the bb is the most contamination prone spot on the bike.
tscheezy |
| So where does that leave me? | Kittmer
Jan 3, 2004 11:46 AM | | I'm not going to drop uber amounts of money on a brand new 2004 crank and bb -- I wanted to go with LP's or Next LP's because I can get them on sale in the spring. I am also running 8 speed, and will try my best to stay away from 9 speed rings.
Now what? Find a square taper LP or Next LP and use the old UN72 or equivilent? My LBS does have some square taper stuff (White forged, Syncros forged) that's been in the display case for a while, and I'm sure I could get some 8 speed rings and have it all installed tomorrow, if I wanted to.
There's always the Second Gen XTR set-up, if I can find 8 speed rings and a bb now that the new design has been out for a while. I might have to track down those parts, it sounds like going ISIS isn't a good move (yet). |
| If you're waiting but absolutely need new cranks... | f*nætik (aka næstep)
Jan 3, 2004 2:25 PM | | ...pick up a pair of Shimano LX or XT from ebay for cheap, and shop around for a deal on new rings.
The v.2 Octalink LX I've been hammering around on for the past three years are going strong. The rings lasted me over a year and still had some life left in them when I converted them to single ring setups.
If you want to run 9 speed rings with an 8 speed setup, no problem. I ran a Sram PC59 for a couple years on an 8 speed XT/XTR drivetrain with a 9 speed LX crank and shifting was flawless. Shimano actually give a thumbs-up to this approach in their 9 speed FAQ. |
| I think it's here to stay. | fonseca
Jan 4, 2004 5:12 PM | | The splined interface isn't going anywhere imo. I think it's superior to octalink myself. But we will end up with BBs like RF is doing this year, with external bearings. That probably won't be good for chainline, at least for people that use the big ring, but oh well.
Also, Truvativ uses "normal sized" bearings in their gigapipe BBs I believe, by removing material for the spindle where the bearings fit.
Maybe oversized BB shells will catch on, but it doesn't look like that will happen anytime soon. But I'm still glad I use ISIS setups on several bikes. |
| RF Chainline..... | Ventanarama
Jan 4, 2004 7:14 PM | | The chainline on the new RF Atlas and Deus cranks will be 48.5mm + will have 3mm of adjustability. Better chainline than the XTR even without the additional adjustment, should be fine.
Larry Mettler
http://www.mtnhighcyclery.com |
| "Blackspire" cranks use.... | VernDog
Jan 3, 2004 6:06 PM | | If your looking for a decent crank, made in Canada, check out the blackspire cranks, offered with the shimano octalink spline...seems that the shimano bbs last longer then the current isis bbs www.blackspire.com I've been using their cranks/rings for some time now. Decent, well built stuff.. |
| how do you guys... | mtnbykr
Jan 4, 2004 4:28 PM | | treat your bottom brackets to have this much trouble?? i've got sq taper rf bb's that are going on 5+ years old and they've never given me any troubles. 2 bikes w/ rf isis bb's [1 1/2 years] and not a noise
out of them. i also don't spend much time washing the hell outta my bikes either. i rinse them off maybe 1-2 times a month. and yes, it gets muddy, sloppy, icy up here. [n minnesota] my opinion, people force too much water into the bb shell when cleaning and it ruins the bearings.
k |
| That's my point, the opposite experiences | Kittmer
Jan 4, 2004 6:32 PM | | Some people love 'em and have no problems. Other people have problems before the bb is a month old. From the sound of things there IS too much probability of a bearing failure for me to consider using ISIS. I ride hard and don't have disposable income, so I want parts to last, perferably without hassle (UN72 comes to mind). On the other hand, I want 'high performance' parts that are also light weight...
Cheap, Strong, Light --> Pick two, right
So Octalink may be what I have to use. |
| Any BB bearings can spin smooth and feel good new, but like... | Bikeless Rider
Jan 4, 2004 10:05 PM | | ...Tscheezy said those tiny balls in the ISIS bearings will never resist contamination and load as well as the larger ones. If by riding hard you mean often, some drops/jumps, and in varied weather, avoid ISIS. No one in responding to your post has put it this way, so I will; why does one of the biggest makers of ISIS BB's (FSA), whom also has a two year warranty on their ISIS BB's and claim they hold up just fine, see fit to urge frame manufacturers to adopt a bigger BB shell standard for their "Megatech" concept if ISIS is so great? |
| FSA ->Majority of problems | xctearor
Jan 5, 2004 2:09 PM | | FSA I know has been getting a fair amount of their Platinum pro BB back. The guys in the weight forum had a discussion about them a while back and most people who used them found that they developed play after a short period. I think that if you want an ISIS crank, go for it but don't look for a light BB that won't take any abuse. When I built up my MCM, I ordered the AMClassic/Shook ISIS and as soon as I took it out of the box and saw it I called for a return #. It probably would have worked fine for somebody smaller (under 185#) but I didn't feel like dealing with it later. I opted for the heavier (60g) RF Sig Ti after doing some research and have foung it to be bulletproof for a year and half.
XC |
| Too many bikes (time vs. distance). | B R H
Jan 15, 2004 8:25 AM | | With all those bikes, I doubt any of them sees enough use to wear out much of anything in a year! I only have one bike that gets ridden pretty hard about 3,000 or so miles each year. I have yet to have any ISIS BB bearing last more than 6 months. None have been smooth after 2 months. Some were never smooth. The bearings are simply too small.
We should all consider reporting distance rather than time. It is a more meaningful measure of wear for these things. |
| Back to ISIS and splined bb's in general... | Kittmer
Jan 5, 2004 7:41 PM | | I don't give a chain pin about the new Shimano or Race Face two piece cranks. Two words for ya: student budget
Right now my shopping choices are:
1/ Second Generation XTR & BB, perferably 8sp (the grey ones)
2/ Shimano LX and BB
3/ Race Face ISIS and BB
I don't really like #2 and #3, and I don't like only having one good choice so far. If I could afford some FSA Carbon Octalink cranks they'd be on my frame yesterday.
My last set-up was AC LoPro Forged cranks, XTR rings, OEM UN72 (1995 baby!). The rings were great, and lasted through two seasons, but are definatly worn out now. It would be nice to bolt on a bb and crank arms and just replace rings for ever.
Happy Tuesday. |
| Don't forget RF makes at least 3 levels of Isis BBs.... | CraigH
Jan 6, 2004 10:51 AM | | I've been killing the signature level BBs in just under a year (one was the regular model and one was FR model), but RF has been great with warranty and replaced both with no problem.
The Isis spline interface works great, it seems the problem is bearing life. The new outside bearing BBs hopefully fix the problem. I'm hoping they make a new outside bearing BB that will fit current Isis cranks. |
| Agreed. My Sig XS wears fast, my cheapie SXR keeps going. nm | Tscheezy
Jan 6, 2004 1:36 PM | | |
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