|   ultra-low viscosity grease now available for Am Classic hubs | Bianchi4Me
Apr 3, 2002 11:12 AM | | If you own American Classic Design hubs, or are just interested in a lower-viscosity grease for general use, please see my related post in the weight topic. |
| I assume mine is in the mail? | pedalinbob
Apr 3, 2002 2:01 PM | | heh, heh...
Bob |
| So my hosting company decides to take a nap... | Bianchi4Me
Apr 3, 2002 2:27 PM | | Hey Bob,
I've honestly lost track of who has got what at this point. It's taken so long to get the correct grease delivered in a relatively undamaged condition. I'd suggest that any of my existing wheelset customers who is expecting a tube of the new grease go ahead and order one as per the instructions on my "weight topic" post. Worst thing that can happen is you'll get two free tubes. Rather send out one too many than leave somebody dry.
Website is down right now. "Temporary Network Outage", which is tech speak for "We got no clue what's wrong". Hopefully you can access the site a little later today. |
| Have you tried converting to sealed... | chris2fur
Apr 3, 2002 10:20 PM | | The AC hub on my new rear wheel has Swiss sealed bearings added by the wheel builder (Dave Thomas). The hub body has no grease port. From what I've heard, by the time the old grease is pushed out of the "greaseable" type, your rear hub is full of grease and much heavier. The Swiss replacement bearings only cost about $4.00 each and suppossedly wear very well (time will tell). |
| All the new model hubs are that way. Much heavier? Noooo! | Bianchi4Me
Apr 4, 2002 6:21 AM | | All of the 2002 disc hubs, and most of the other models, are coming from the factory with double-sealed bearings (seal on each side) and no greaseport. They also have an additional rubber contact seal on the axle ends that covers the bearings, and a rubber o-ring and contact seal where the cog carrier meets the hub body. Hopefully your hubs have all those features. The new factory bearings that go in these new model hubs are filled with a very high quality marine bearing grease, which is highly resistant to washout and inhibits corrosion in the presence of moisture. Dave's double-sealed bearing may have been an "upgrade" for some users on the old greaseport hubs, but it's not really a relevant change on this year's hubs. Just duplicates what the factory has already done.
As far as the greaseport hubs being "much heavier", who on earth told you that?!? Just curious because I've had this discussion before and it's total nonsense. The massive grease weight gain on the greaseport disc hub versus the 2002 model is about 10 grams. The greaseport hub weighed 256g, and the fill of grease added about 20 grams. The new hub weighs 266. Grease in the front greaseport hub weighs about 10 grams. So the total difference for the pair of hubs is about 20 grams. Might be a tad more or a tad less depending on the grease you use, but ~10 grams per hub at the very center of a wheel is NOT going to have any type of measureable impact.
The downside is that all the rubber seals mean that the new hubs have a higher rolling resistance than the earlier models. Not a huge difference, but certainly more than enough to offset whatever performance gain you might get from the tiny weight difference. One of the truly beautiful things about the greaseport hubs is that they just spin, and spin, and spin. Easily have the lowest rolling resistance of any hub I've ever worked with. The non-greaseport hubs aren't bad in this respect compared to other hub models, but they are definitely a step backwards in terms of performance.
I just wish people would sell their products by giving folks accurate info and then letting them make an informed decision about what is right for them, instead of trying to boost sales by putting out false info to make their product look better. |
| Check out the reviews | chris2fur
Apr 4, 2002 7:01 AM | | I didn't go on one person's opinion. It's pretty hard to decide some of these things and one hears conflicting info. If you read the reviews on this site, however, you will see that the major complaint of owners is that they have had problems with the grease port system. I would have to see a before and after weight measurement with the grease. If it really requires the main portion of the rear hub body to be filled with grease before the old pushes out, then I doubt it only adds 10g. Grease is heavy. Anyway, I wouldn't be so harsh on Dave. Remember, he started using the sealed bearings BEFORE the factory switched... BTW, I have tried to get your opinion on some of my wheel decisions based on your reputation, but when I left E-mail messages at your website (your are the oddsandendos.com guy, right?) they never got answered. Anyway, thanks for sharing any insights you have, but I don't think any major misinformation campaign is going on here... |
| I have actually measured them, ONE BAD REVIEW?!? | Bianchi4Me
Apr 4, 2002 8:41 AM | | I just went through the SIXTEEN reviews for these hubs. ONE complains about problems with the greaseport (oddly still listed it as a "strength"). ONE other review states he also had grease weepage, still liked the port, but was worried about rotor contamination. SIX reviews list the greaseport as a "strength" or specifically mention the greaseport favorably in the review. So ONE specifc complaint, and ONE "like it but kinda woried" about the greaseport means it's a "major complaint"?
I would say the actual "major complaint"s listed have to do with bearing durability and availability. 3 of the 4 people complaining about bearing availability are from Singapore and Malaysia. They just didn't want to pay international shipping for a $4 part, and I don't blame them. (The one guy in the U.S. who made an issue about the "non-standard" size bearing apparently lives in a cave and doesn't own a telephone?) Still, every week I have to talk to people about "I read the reviews on MTBR and saw that you can't get replacement bearings for these hubs...." I want to say "Do you live in Singapore?" It's the typical MTBR rumor-mill hard at work...
You can "doubt" it all you want, but I have actually taken the time and trouble to weigh the new hubs and the old hubs with and without grease. That way I can give folks an actual number instead of relying on marketing speak. ("Much heavier" "Tastes Great" "Less Filling"...) An ENTIRE tube full of Pedro's or Finish Line grease only weighs 100 grams. Grease is NOT that heavy. It certainly doesn't take more than about a third of a tube to fill the hubs, does it? The whole inside of the hub is not "filled" with grease. There is only a narrow gap between the axle and the hubshell and/or cog carrier that is filled.
The freehub unit area is also filled with grease, but that is equally true on the new hub as well. Both hubs are grease filled in that area, right? The bearings are filled with grease too, but that is also true on both hubs. So the only filled area on the greaseport hub that is not filled on the new hubs is a narrow gap between the axle and hubshell and/or cog carrier.
The new model hub rear hub is HEAVIER by ten grams than a "dry" greaseport hub due to the 6 additional seals (which are rubber coated brass washers), the rubber contact seals, o-ring, freehub seal (also rubber-coated brass), and the fact that the freehub unit and bearings are already pre-filled with grease. So although you have to add roughly 20 grams of grease to the old hub, the net result is that the new rear hub is only about 10 grams lighter. The difference in weight in the front hub is also about 10 grams. We've got dozens of folks here on MTBR using these hubs. I'm certainly not making up numbers because if I were it would be obvious to the folks that own them. You might see a variation of 2-3 grams depending on the grease you use, but it's certainly not going to significant.
As far as having to "fill the hub to push out the old grease", that's a misconception. You fill the hub when it's brand new. After that, you only have to give to give it a couple of squirts to clear the contaminated grease out of the end bearings. You aren't replacing all the grease every time you lube it.
I'm surprised to hear that Dave Thomas is where you got the "much heavier" story. I assumed you got that here on MTBR. I'm sure he has also taken the time to actually weigh them too. I'm sure that was simply a misunderstanding. Maybe he was comparing it to a different hub.
I'm certainly willing to grant Mr. Thomas credit for taking the initiative in addressing the bearing issue, but you do realize that his bearing was developed for use in the greaseport hubs? Intention was to discontinue use of the greaseport by installing the double-sealed bearings and not filling the hub with grease. Am Classic actually shipped a bunch of hubs that way too. Gave the customer the option of "activating" the greaseport feature by removing the inner seals, or riding it "as is". I seriously doubt Mr. Thomas would have bothered with developing his own bearing if he had know Bill Shook was going to take over Am Classic and do a redesign on the hubs for '02. Am Classic had the new model disc hubs on display at Interbike back in October, so they've been available without the greaseport for quite a while. Absolutely nothing wrong with dealers taking the initiative to address problems though. Perhaps his action encouraged Am Classic's redesign?
I'm sorry if my response seems heavy-handed, but it's wearying to have to repeatedly deal with the same exaggerations, rumors, and especially skepticism, over and over here on MTBR. Why would I lie and make up a fictitious product weight, and risk my reputation, when there are a ton of people on here who KNOW what the actual weight is? In order to sell more Am Classic $4 bearings and keep Mr. Thomas from selling his Swiss $4 bearings? That's really a productive use of my time. I'm sure Dave's not yelling "Whoopee Honey, we sold another bearing!" when he hangs up the phone either. It's gotta cost him more in time and trouble to sell one than he makes off them. The old saying about "a rumor is like a weed" certainly applies to some of these issues. |
| Still don't know why you're ticked at me, but why don't you ... | chris2fur
Apr 4, 2002 9:38 AM | | make more of an effort to get the proper information out? Does your website say anything about the new AC hubs not having a grease port? Does it explain the difference? Do you answer your e-mails? I'm not the perpetrator here, I'm the one who has to make a decision with very limited information. This includes the American Classic website which doesn't explain the difference or why they switched. It's plenty frustrating to me as well since it's my $300 bucks that I spent on a new handbuilt rear wheel and that's a lot of dough in my world. You have some legitimate complaints, but on the other hand, you just posted your anouncement about the different grease available for the AC hubs, but chose not to mention anything about the new hubs not using it. It's darn hard to get a straight story on things sometimes. I'm still saving for a new front wheel and am a potential customer of yours, but would prefer to be informed rather than railed at. |
| The website does mention the changes for the 2002 hubs and has | AZ-X
Apr 4, 2002 10:55 AM | | for a while now...
http://oddsandendos.safeshopper.com/7/13.htm?200
The new grease thing is something they've been working on continuously for a few months and they seem to have finally found the answer. |
| You are right, unfortunately, too late for me... | chris2fur
Apr 4, 2002 11:40 AM | | Also, it's still confusing because the American Classic website, under "what's new" and "ultralite disc hubset," still shows a grease port. Live and learn (and pay and pay). |
| It's varies on model/color/drilling/logo | Bianchi4Me
Apr 4, 2002 12:31 PM | | My website does not go into the specifics of the new model hub versus the old model because the availability of each hub varies on a case-by-case basis. Some Am Classic hubs have the greaseport, some do not. Originally ONLY the disc hubs lacked the port, but availability is now changing every week as the factory "sells out" of different models of the greaseport hub and restocks them with the sealed model. Right now availability of the greaseport varies by color and drilling even. For example, the silver 28h road hub might not be available in the new model, but the black 28h road hub might be. In addition, it's sometimes possible to swap hub bodies between MTB hubs and Road hubs to create what the customer wants. Finally, some of the hubs that were produced directly for Bill Shook prior to his assuming 100% ownership of Am Classic have a "Shook Design" logo, and of course some have an Am Classic logo. Trying to list all those variables on my website is pretty complicated, especially since they change constantly. As mentioned earlier, I prefer to give the customer some info about the advantages and disadvantages of each model, and let them pick which one they want, IF a choice is currently available in the model/color/drilling they want.
For example, somebody that's building a pair of "race" road wheels and lives in Arizona is pretty definitely better off with the greaseport hubs due to the lower rolling resistance. A rider who does century rides in rain-soaked Oregon is probably gonna be better off with the sealed hubset. 5 hours in the rain is not the best environment for the greaseport hub. Just like anything else you put on your bike, there are trade-offs involved.
Just to clarify...
"...you just posted your announcement about the different grease available for the AC hubs, but chose not to mention anything about the new hubs not using it."
?!? The announcement refers everyone to the post I have in the weight topic. That post explains that I selected TWO different grades of grease, one is specifically recommended for freehub units on non-disc sealed freehubs (the "new" hubs), and the other one for disc hubs and/or hubs with greaseports. Obviously, I did a very poor job on that explanation if you somehow interpreted that to mean that the new hubs don't use this grease. The freehub unit on the sealed hub needs periodic cleaning and lubrication just like any other hub made by any other manufacturer. That's why I'm going to the trouble to re-package the stuff into a 100 gram squeeze bottle for non-greaseport hub owners. 8 ounces would be a lifetime supply and then some.
Regarding my email response rate. That is a valid complaint, and one that I've been struggling with over the last couple of months. It's simply not possible for me to deal promptly with all the email inquires I get, so I decided to offer a toll free number. That way if somebody needs to get in touch with me, they don't have to wait for an email response. I need to come up with a better solution for the email obviously. I'm seriously considering eliminating it completely, but that creates a problem for folks who are overseas and can't use the toll free, and also limits the time I can communicate with customers to "business hours." I'm frequently up until 3 or 4 a.m. doing email, so I hope you won't feel I'm intentionally ignoring anyone. |
| You know im just... | pedalinbob
Apr 4, 2002 9:32 AM | | yankin' yer chain, Mike!!!
heh, heh...you have treated me well, and i will be ordering some more stuff soon...i hope.
people are sometimes unreasonable with their expectations. i am all too aware of this: i am a critical care RN, therefore i understand patience (patients?).
you build good stuff, stand behind them, are VERY knowledgeable and are friendly to boot.
i also admire you for trying the AC stuff, and working with Shook to refine and develop the products: i think their stuff is on its way to becoming the new "guy to beat".
i intend to pound the snot outta that rear wheel you built this year, and i am sure it will perform excellently.
oh, and i did place my order for the new grease via your site.
thanks again,
Bob |
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