|   Horses... | rbart4506
Apr 25, 2002 3:42 AM | | This post isn't to bash horse riders or horses in general, but I have really noticed something in the last few weeks. I've always heard and read complaints from MTBr's about the damage horses do to trails, but I have always dismissed it as sour grapes. I'd seen horses every so often on the trails around Milton and didn't really notice any problems with the trails. I use to think that there should be no problem with sharing the trails with the horse folk, but that thinking has changed since I moved to Dundas. The trails in the Dundas Valley Conservation Area must be over-run with horses. I have never in my life ridden trails that are so pot marked with horse hoof holes and horse droppings. The damage that those animals do to those trails is unbelievable. If it was MTBr's doing that damage I'm certain we'd be banned in no time. I was out last night and I'm honestly surprise I didn't shoot an organ out my butt because of the amount of bashing that was going on.
I really want to continue to see the multi-use of trails, I think it's important, but I also think it's about time that horse riders and hikers start to think before they go out on the trails. As a mountain biker I am always looking at trails conditions and staying off the real wet, muddy, sensitive trails and I think it's time for the horse riders and hikers to do the same.
We need to get this message out or all trails will suffer from over use.
Ok, that's my rant for the day....
Happy trails,
Rich |
| re: Horses... | richard cohen
Apr 25, 2002 4:12 AM | | my daughter and i have this discussion often as she is a passionate rider and i am on my bike. we live in the sf bay area, riding in the east bay. the park where she rides is also one of my favorite spots, and in my view the horses do a tremendous amount of damage in the winter when it is muddy. i do think it's not everybody riding horses, only a minority (it always is just a few on both sides) that doesn't think about the damage caused by riding on really wet, muddy trails.
i know it's no solution, the best is for all sides to be conscious of what they are doing and the conditions that cause damage. |
| re: Horses... | wg
Apr 25, 2002 8:20 AM | | Mt Diablo foothills? Couldn't agree more. I ride Shell Ridge as my regular and horse potholes all over the place. (I realize there are cows potholes there too but its easy to tell the difference.) |
| re: Horses... | richard cohen
Apr 25, 2002 11:30 AM | | i ride around mt. diablo a lot, briones, china camp, and mt. tam. the east bay parks seem to be the ones with the horses.... |
| re: Horses... | sonicdeathmonkey
Apr 25, 2002 6:38 AM | | What I find so irritating about the whole equestrian/mt. biker thing is the amount of leeway we mountain bikers have to give them to ensure they stay happy. Granted they are riding a five hundred pound animal with a mind of its own, but that is their choice. If their horse can't remain calm in the presence of other trail users, then that horse should stay home.
As for the trail damage, it is amazing compared to what a mountain biker can do. The mounds of fresh horse crap is great to ride or hike through and the hoof damage after a rain...enough said. Dog owners are required to clean up after their dogs, but what about the equestrians?
Having said all this, why are we mountain bikers still labeled the bad boys/girls of the trail? Some of us deserve it for flying down the trail and giving no respect to other users, but for the most part, we don't.
Ride hard... |
| re: Horses... | Yeti_Rider
Apr 25, 2002 6:55 AM | | My gripe with them is that as a responsible dog owner I'm supposed to (and I do) clean up after her but as a Mountain biker or hiker I'm forced to steer cleer of giant steaming mounds of you know what.
And what horses weight only 500 pounds? I'm thinking they push 1,500 but I'm just guessing!
Michael |
| Try this: Norwegian traffic laws | kevral
Apr 25, 2002 10:38 AM | | By Norwegian law, in any accident involving
A) a horse, and
B) a car,
it is ALWAYS the car's fault. Your car can pretty much be parked, and if a horse decides to bash in your door, its your fault for parking it there.
No kidding. There was a case in the news about this a few years back.
I guess that makes horses next spring's hottest fashion accessory for teenage vandals.
Sheesh. |
| re: Horses... | Horse
Apr 25, 2002 8:05 AM | | Average weight is between 800 and 1300 pounds. I posted on this topic a few weeks ago. In Utah where I live and ride, horses are allowed into wilderness/low impact areas where mtn. bikes are not allowed. As if this is not bad enough, sheepherders and cattlemen are granted grazing rights in these same areas that bikes are restricted from. I grew up on horses and have packed in to wilderness areas many times. As much as I have enjoyed those times, I can definitely state that horses do far more damage than any bike ever would. I have had numerous experiences on prestine streams where the fishing was destroyed by the sheep herd that came down for the daily watering. This destroyes streamside vegetation causing the banks to degrade resulting in stream siltation, destruction of aquatic insect and fish habitat and on and on. Besides the dumping issue, there is also the matter of overgrazing as most high mountain wilderness zones have few and sparse meadows to accomodate groups of horses grazing throughout the summer. What bothers me as I have stated in the past is the double standard. |
| Think about who has more clout with politicians..... | Cook
Apr 25, 2002 10:58 AM | | A handfull of mountain-bikers, half of whom probably have 2/3rds of their equity invested in their bikes, or a handfull of people that have enough free cash to stable a couple of horses? |
| re: Horses... | Drop-in
Apr 25, 2002 8:23 AM | | The damage dome by horses when the trail is wet is not nearly as significant as when they are dry. The trails leading to the Sawtooth Wilderness and White Cloud Areas in Idaho are just decimated by horses. The endless pack tours for the sake of a Wilderness experience are appalling. The horses churn and grind the trails into a fine powdery "bug dust" up to a foot thick! Then, when it rains or snows, runoff from the trails become a river of sediment, laden with mud and horse sh!t which is dispersed into pristine rivers and creeks either directly or indirectly. The horses then trudge through the muddy trails leaving the potmarks and vast environmental damage described in the other posts. They are allowed to continue on into the Wilderness because they are "environmentally acceptable" and non-mechanical without as much as a wink.
Bicyclist...generally don't ride in bug dust, don't decimate a trail beyond recognition, don't ride in ankle deep mud, don't exert 500 psi on the receiving terrian. I don't like horses!!
Wow there's my rant! I feel better now. Sorry if I offended anyone...I need to go ride! |
| For what it's worth, it goes both ways | drsam
Apr 25, 2002 10:05 AM | | There are obnoxious horse users to be sure (I think a lot more than most folks realize), but there are also some rotten mountain bikers out there giving everyone else a bad name.
Two instances I can think of right off hand...
When I was in college years ago, I had a friend who had horses and she and I would go ride together sometimes. Her horses were kept on private land and we rode on trails on that private land. These trails and this land were all clearly marked no trespassing.
Almost anytime we rode, we'd encounter folks on mountain bikes tearing down the trails, leaving long skid marks in the wet mud, spooking the horses, etc. When we'd inform them (politely) that they were trespassing on private land that was intended for equestrian use only, we were usually greeted with obscene language and finger gestures. Needless to say, our image of mountain bikers was not a good one.
Secondly, I spent two summers hiking on the appalachian trail (A.T.). For those unfamiliar with the A.T., it is a trail running through the mountains from Georgia to Main. It is, by federal law, for foot traffic only. It is clearly marked as such all over the place. The same experience I had on the privately owned horse trails, was had by me on numerous occassions on the A.T. Again, giving me (and others) a negative image of mountain bikers.
Now I am into mountain biking (for the past 5 years or so). I enjoy it quite a bit. Unfortunately, there are not many good trails in my area designated for mountain biking. Sadly the few there are, have become overrun with guys on four-wheelers and dirt-bikes (motorcycles). There are plenty of places for them to ride these things in the area, but instead they choose to "poach" the few trails designated for mountain biking. Not surprisingly, they too are quite adept at the obscene language/finger gestures. It has reached the point now, that they have managed to tear up the few mountain biking trails in the area to the point that they are not really much fun to ride anymore, and I find myself riding increasingly on pavement (which just sort of sucks).
I guess the bottom line here is that no matter what you're into, be it horse, bicycles, motorcycles, or whatever, you should have respect for the rights of others. If a trail is designated multiuse, then use it as such and try to be cognizant and respectful of other users on it.
If it isn't designated for the use you are into, then stay the hell off. All you do by being disrespectful is tarnish the image of your sport in the eyes of others, and hasten the institution and enforcement of rules against it.
Anyway, I'm done ranting.
Sam |
| Where I live (So. Cal) | Rivet
Apr 25, 2002 12:02 PM | | There are huge areas designated for only equestrian and hiking use yet they insist on frequenting the few places that are also MTB friendly. It's alsmost like they go there just to be able to bitch at MTBr's. I have pointed this out on many occasions to these people but they invaribly reply" I want to hike/ride here". Whatever. |
| re: Horses... | Ed Z
Apr 25, 2002 10:40 AM | | I live in Hamilton, ride in the Valley and am very familiar with the issuses you raise. Futhermore, I and a number of others tried to deal with impact and trail etiquette problems with the Conservation Authority and other users with only modest sucess. The following factors are responsible for limited progress:
1.Many users continue to put the their interests ahead of the general welfare of the area. Educating these users and getting them to change their behavior is an on-going challenge. We can do some of that work within our own community and try and be good role-models with the hope that others will follow our good example.
2. The Conservation Authority, the agency responsible for managing the area, generally does a poor job addressing and resolving these problems. The senior managers are "old school" and quite frankly, old men who lack the ability and interest to be pro-active. The General manager is retiring in Oct but I'm not sure there will be the kind of institutional change that need to be made.
3.All of So. Ont is experiencing staggering growth with more users on shrinking green spaces. We can't disperse the impacts over a large trail system because we don't have that.
The good news is that a) there are guys like you who are sensitive to these problems and act resposibily and b) you're not alone. There will be other opprtunities to work on this stuff.
See ya on the trails . Ed |
| I'm on both sides | JPJ
Apr 25, 2002 4:08 PM | | I've ridden horses since I was two and started riding mt. bikes in '88 (in the Mt. Diablo foot hills). I've competed in both. Though I rode competitively on stadium jumpers, we would go out for the occassional trial ride to give the horses minds a break from jumping. Horse people are just like Mt. Bike people. Most are cool, some are idiots. Generally if you ride (horses) in really muddy conditions it's hard on their tendons and they'll likely throw a shoe. The hacks do this, same as Mt. Bikers. Also, horses are way more likely to stay of the trail than mt. bikers - especially nowadays. Mt. Bikers carved more "secret" single tracks into shell ridge than ever. That's really gonna screw thing up more than a bumpy trail with hoof mark.
The thing is, horses have been around for a lot longer than Mt. Bikers. They've put in centuries worth of trail work. They've fought for access to the same trails you're fighting for, it's just that they fought for it before Tom Ritchey even thought of going off road. I think this is why they don't catch hell for tearing up the trail. Also, you can (or should be able to) control your bike - it doesn't have a mind of it's own. I've been in lots of scary situations where my high strung Warm Blood decided to put his 2000lbs straight up and sideways all at once cuz a Mt. Biker scared the sh-t out of him. No big deal if the guy is cool about it. But if the guy cops an attitude you'd like to kill him. Luckly this rarely happens.
Just ride in control and be stoked that other people, like you, enjoy getting away from the caos of the big city and dig being with Nature. |
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