|   Al frames vs. steel frames....seriously | head
Sep 4, 2002 10:42 AM | | before anybody starts ranting, i know that there is no "best" frame material and it all depends on your preferences and the application and the builder and the geometry and.....
currently i'm riding a steel frame (breezer) but i'm going to build a new bike and i'm trying to decide between materials. i've got a few questions about steel and aluminum that i'm hoping can be answered by somebody who has ridden quite a bit of both.
is there a noticeable difference between the climbing and accelerating abilities of aluminum and steel frames given the same geometry and similar build quality?
have the newer aluminum tubesets (like easton ultra) made any progress towards comfort or vibration damping to resemble a quality steel (853) frame?
thanks for any insight or advice,
head mcm#500 |
| re: Al frames vs. steel frames....seriously | BH
Sep 4, 2002 11:50 AM | | As a former aluminum road bike owner, I can attest that aluminum frames (at least the Specialized one I had) are stiffer than steel. The bike was advertised as "ideal" for centuries but it put me in so much pain after 2 hours that I couldn't keep going on it. I sold that road frame and now do my road rides on a steel Breezer mountain frame with a rigid fork and 1.25" slick tires. The Breezer is also set up with a titanium seat post, and a titanium cut out saddle and can be ridden pain free, well beyond 2 hours. Part of that benefit is due to the 1.25" tires vs. the 25mm (1") road tires but the frame itself is noticeably flexier.
It all comes down to the fact that flexier frames absorb more bumps and ride better. From a material standpoint, steel can be made into a frame that can flex more than any other material while still maintaining an acceptably long fatigue life. This is why you almost exclusively see springs made out of steel and rarely out of aluminum. I can't answer for the ride quality of titanium since I have not yet ever owned a bike made from it.
I also own an MTB built with 853 (Voodoo) which has larger diameter tubes than the Breezer and it is a little bit heavier too (4 lbs. Breezer, 4.4 lbs. Voodoo). This frame is noticeably stiffer than the Breezer but it is still acceptably comfortable. It doesn't have the lateral flex issues that the Breezer has when I sprint hard on it. I have a 3rd steel hardtail, a 1990 Fisher Hoo Koo E Koo built with True Temper steel but the older non heat treated type. The tube outer diameters are similar to the 853 but thicker. The frame weighs 5.5 lbs., and it still fairly comfortable.
When it comes to mountain bikes, tire pressure also plays a significant role as far as comfort is concerned. But to maximize comfort, every component of the complete structure that can provide a benefit needs to be selected. Also significant is the frame design. A longer wheelbase and longer chainstays will allow for more deflection and a better ride as well.
Just like steel frames, aluminum frames made with high tensile strength aluminum can be made to flex more and ride better than lower grade frames with thicker, heavier tubes. As far as a side by side comparison between 2 identical frames, one built from high quality steel vs. the other built with high quality aluminum, I haven't done one.
I also have a 4th bike, an aluminum full suspension bike with 4 ½" of rear travel. This is by far the most comfortable bike of them all. Since I bought this one, all of my other mountain bikes have essentially become road bikes since this is the only bike I take on the trail now.
One more thing to consider in steel frames is that they are repairable. A crack developed on my Voodoo at the seat tube BB junction due to a manufacturing defect (poor weld). I was able to have the frame repaired and I have about 1500 miles on it since the repair.
Personally, as far as hardtails and road bikes are concerned, I will never again buy anything made from a material other than steel. But as far as full suspension bikes are concerned aluminum is the only way to go. |
| A little off topic, but... | JPD
Sep 4, 2002 6:18 PM | | If you know of ANY application where aluminum of ANY kind was used for the basis of a spring material, tell me, I would love to know. I manufacture springs for a living, and have never in 10 years used aluminum for the base material in springmaking.
Music wire, oil tempered steels, Stainless steels, titanium, chrome silicon, vanadium, almost any steel alloy , but never aluminum. Aluminum has no fatigue strength, poor corrosion properties, and no redeemable spring characteristics. I love learning about new materials and coiling/winding techniques. |
| Not a spring, but a hinge | Birdman
Sep 5, 2002 4:13 AM | | I saw a 4-bar mechanism in a fiber-optic switch that was machined from a single billet of aluminum with 4 living hinges.
It was for an under-sea application and had to operate only once, but it HAD to operate when activiated. Pretty neat, I thought.
JMJ |
| I have never heared of any | Kornphlake
Sep 5, 2002 10:28 AM | | I am a student in Manufacturing Engineering, the professors love to talk about all the new prototype technology that seems to never make it to market. I have never heared of an aluminum alloy that can function as a spring. I have cut all kinds of aluminum and the chips seem like they would be springy enough untill you put a load on them and they break. |
| Ibis Ripley & Castellano Fango (nm) | Titan
Sep 5, 2002 2:21 PM | | |
| re: Al frames vs. steel frames....seriously | R. Ortega
Sep 4, 2002 12:06 PM | | I went from a Klein to a lugged 853 tubed frame (Waterford) and these are my general impressions....
The Klein climbed like crazy due to the stiffness (and square stays). I could really stomp on the pedals and hardly feel any flex. But, the ride was really stiff and quite uncomfortable.
I then went to the steel frame and the difference was noticeable. Sorry about the cliche, but it felt resilient and almost springy. I couldn't stomp on the pedals as on the Klein; there was a lot of flex at the bb. As long as I pedaled smoothly, the bike just flew. I really don't know if a TIG welded steel frame will feel or ride differently.
The Klein was a good pound lighter and felt faster on a tight singletrack climb where I could mash on the pedals. The Waterford had a more "refined" ride and still climbed well. My preference...the Waterford. Hope this helps. |
| re: Al frames vs. steel frames....seriously | AZ Steelhead
Sep 4, 2002 12:25 PM | | Aluminum tube sets like Easton Ultra or Scandium are close to the compliance of quality steel but lack the durability. If you are building a bike that you plan on owning for a while steel is you best bet, stick with higher end offering from Columbus, True Temper, Reynolds, etc..... If you are building a race bike for a season or two go with high quality lightweight aluminum. Be sure to make sure you are within the builders weight limits. |
| re: Al frames vs. steel frames....seriously | Biking_Monkey
Sep 4, 2002 4:00 PM | | I road a C'dale frame (AL of course) for 4 years. I thought the bike was beautiful, it was and still is one of the fastest climbing bikes I've ever ridden. But she was harsh, I lovingly referred to her as a "mobile raper," and that was before I tried a steel MTB.
At the begining of the summer I decided to retire the bike, too many things were worn out. I decided on a Steel IF Deluxe. Goodness, talk about a difference! I had no idea how rigid the old C'dale frame was. I'm living out east, with the all roots and rocks, and the IF just sucks 'em up. Not as well as my old FS bike, but still does a damn good job.
What actually convinced me to get a steel bike was an old steel road frame that I picked up. It's 20 years old, but hand-built and brazed, almost all components on the bike are now brand new. The road bike with little tires (23mm) and 100 psi transmitted less small amplitude vibration than my HT with 2.0 (2.4 front) tires with 30-35 psi. When I realized this I was sold.
IF makes a beautiful bike, but I have to believe that the ride quality of the bike is due in large part to the material, the incredible handling are due to IF's genius and experince. IF also seals all but the seat tube, so you only need to worry about rust in one tube.
After I had ridden the IF for a while I got back on the C'dale, it was night and day difference. I was sore and had a hard time controlling (largely due to the jarring) the C'dale after riding the IF.
The IF does not climb quite as well as the C'dale, nor is it quite as quick. I have a higher handlebar postion on the IF than on the C'dale so that may explain most of that. I have no regrets, I hope I never have to go back to AL (with the exception of a FS rig). I'm planning on racing the IF this next season (I will be lowering the handlebar for races).
One year ago, I moved to Virginia (Grad School) with 2 AL bikes and thought steel was interesting and maybe a novelty. I now have 3 steel bikes (crusier, MTB , and road) I sold the AL FS rig, and the C'dale hardtail is enjoying retirement out west.
Check out Rocky Mt's Blizzard (I think that's the name), it's a hand built 853 frame that retails for somewhere between $550-650! |
| i'm in va too.... | head
Sep 5, 2002 8:06 AM | | ...where are you taking grad school classes?
head |
| re: Al frames vs. steel frames....seriously | weather
Sep 4, 2002 5:59 PM | | i'd say there's a difference between accelerating abilities, but i haven't got the chance to compare two structurally identical frames so i cannot say how big this difference is.
my old steel frame was a fisher xcaliber(true temper ox2), and my ride now is a Mrazek (alu, elevated chainstay). the Mrazek is amazingly compliant and it exceeded the steel frames i've ridden in terms of comfort. the second best thing is its lateral stiffness. it's simply rock solid when i stand up and hammer. in terms of durability, given the beefy straight gauge tubes, i see no problems as yet. however, this alu frame has no weight advantage over steel ones, and probably no durability advantage either.
when i weighed this Mrazek with steel frames, i had lateral stiffness on one end (didn't know it was THAT compliant back at the time) and peace of mind about durability on the other.
not to say steel's rule is over. Mrazek is one of the few exotic designs that actually worked. if you don't like Mrazek, there's Mountain Cycle Moho. other than these two i personally don't see any alu frame that works as well as a well executed steel frame. |
| I went from an aluminum hardtail to a steel one... | Birdman
Sep 5, 2002 4:21 AM | | and couldn't believe the difference in the ride... so much smoother. Mind you, my new steel bike has a better fork than the last aluminum hardtail I owned, but it is also a tad heavier. 3 of my last 4 hardtails have been aluminum (1 was a Specialized M2FS metal matrix bike), and this new steel framed bike (Soma Groove) is the smoothest hardtail I've ridden thus far.
What are you going to do with the steel Breezer frame?
JMJ |
| breezer will be a single speed due to shifting woes.... | head
Sep 5, 2002 7:53 AM | | i've had problems with chainsuck on the lightning since the beginning (or shortly there after). i've changed parts out a few times and i completely replaced the drivetrain once, including the derailleurs. i even tried filing down some shifting pins and ramps on my middle chainring but none of it helped.
i've watched the problem occur while i had the bike in the stand and it looks like the chain drops to the 22t ring but the side-plates of the chain hang onto the middle ring and wrap up into the stay. it's certainly not normal chainsuck where the hooked teeth fail to release the chain. i took a few rough spills on the bike when it was new and i'm not sure if i bent the frame a little or what but i'm sick of dealing with it.
I don't want to get rid of it because i like the way it rides so i'm turning it into a single speed where its positive attributes can shine without the evil shadow of chainsuck. at this point i feel like i owe it to the bike to set it's will free.
word,
head mcm#500 |
| Is the top tube long enough on the Soma?.... | sheebo
Sep 5, 2002 5:27 PM | | According to their spec's, it seems just a tad short. Thanks. |
| Went from steel to alu | MountRealRider
Sep 5, 2002 8:01 AM | | ..and I like alu more for 2 to 6 hours rides, and for racing. But if I would have to be on my bike for 6 -8 hours a day for weeks, I would go steel. Alu is not that uncomfortable. |
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