|   Stumpy wheels? Disk or rim Brakes? | Fingerpicker
Feb 25, 2003 11:32 PM | | I have a new Stumpjumper Comp. I am going to order Stan's No Tubes. I got to thinking about the wheels. It seems that they might be a little heavy. Are there any good wheelsets that are light, disk ready, and cost less than $275/set? Or are these wheels good enough? I am not hard on wheels. Supergo has their XTR/517 on sale for $239, very light, but not disk ready. Are disks that good,, or are my Avid Arch Rivals good enough. I was thinking of putting on the Avid Mechanicals. I'm in So Cal so I don't get the brakes in H2O much. I can't decide. Light wheels and rim brakes, or mechanical disks and keep what I got. |
| You're back! | Tscheezy
Feb 25, 2003 11:49 PM | | Hows the new ride?
Thinking discs, eh? Do you ride in the wet? That is the place where discs REALLY shine. They has been much blood spilt here lately in the disc verses V brake skirmishes. I don't want to get into that all over again. Let me just say that it is a little counterproductive to worry about wheel weight to the tune of replacing your present wheels, and then grab some Avid discs, cause they are kinda porky little brakes. If you were really going to be weight consious, you would look at other brakes. If you want to try discs (by all means! I love my Avids) go grab a set off eBay or your favorite discount reseller, and try them out on your present wheels. You can get set up, front and back, for about $130-140. If you still decide you want to shed some grams later, get a wheel "upgrade" then. If you ride in dry conditions mostly, and don't feel lacking in brake power ever, then you probably aren't missing much no having discs. Personally, I could not live (ok, ride) without them, but then I live under a veritable waterfall.
tscheezy |
| I'm Back! | FIngerpicker
Feb 26, 2003 8:02 AM | | I live in dry climate (but not today!). The weight I'm looking to save is rotational. I bought the Avid Mechanical disk brakes, but I have not put them on yet. I'm trying to figure out if I want them because they are cool or because they are that much better. It seems that in a dry place, disks don't make that much of a difference. So I could save a lot of wieght by getting those XTR wheels and skipping the disks. Those wheels are listed as 1555 grams for the set. That's XTR hubs, 3X croos DB spokes, 517s and aloy nipples. I'm guessing my wheelset is closer to 2100 grams. That's some big rotationl savings. -- I love the new Stumpy. |
| The hub does not count for rotational weight | Tscheezy
Feb 26, 2003 10:14 AM | | and I bet that is where a bit of the heft in your present wheelset lies. The XT and Stout hubs are heavy, but they are at the axis of rotation so they are just dead weight, not rotational weight. Alloy nipples saves a *little* weight, but spoke butting almost nothing. I don't know what rims are on the Stumpy, but they are probably within 50 grams of the 517s. Disc wheels can be built light too, but you run into some $$$ for that. You can offset a lot of the weight of the disc wheelset by choosing tires carefully. Infact, tire selection will have a greater effect than going to other "lighter" wheels. If you are saving 500 grams by going to lighter wheels (I doubt the difference is that big) but keep the same tires, as opposed to shedding 250 grams in tire wieght on the original wheels, you will notice the change in the tires more. The weight is just in a more critical area.
Yeah, discs are cool, and they work great. They can add heft. For a lot of us the benefits outweigh (no pun intended) the drawbacks. You already have them. Just install them and try em out. They are a great addition to the bike. Like I said before, if they make the bike feel more porky, try some lighter tires (they can be had cheap), and if that still does not cut it, pick up some light wheels built for disc later on sometime (or you may decide you don't need them). The real problem with discs is that once you try them, you don't want to go back.
tscheezy |
| The hub does not count for rotational weight | Fingerpicker
Feb 26, 2003 11:32 AM | | I know hubs don't make much difference, it is all the weight out near the tires. I have light tires, about 550 grams and light tubes, about 110 grams. Anything less does not have enough bite or is too narrow for me. I won't do anything less thatn 2.1. The rims are mavic 223 I think. You are right, the are about 55 grams more than the 517 ir 317 450 vs 395). I know from past experience, a light weight wheelset makes a big difference. I'm not unhappy with my V brakes, so I'm think that XTR wheel set will make more of a differenc to me thatn disk brakes. But I'm not sure. I don't want to add more time working on my bike, and I hear that there is some maintenance time required on the disks that V's don't. Im still on the fence. |
| Avid discs are no more work than V's. | Tscheezy
Feb 26, 2003 1:32 PM | | Infact in the wet they are considerably less because you just have to turn the pad advance dial in a click every now and then to accomodate for pad wear. With V's I was always having to pull cable, readjust the pad contact, and replace pads. It was getting expensive having $16 worth of pads dissolving every 6 weeks. Discs in dry weather should require the same or less attention than V's. The cable lube time is the same or less, the pad adjustment time is less, and you don't have to worry about your rims being perfectly true ever.
Yeah, sounds like you have found a happy balance between weight and tire size. They only real place to attack weight now is a little out of the rim and some from the hubs. A nice wheelset makes a huge difference for sure. Just be warned, that the only reason you are on the fence is because you have not tried discs. They are addictive like heroine once you try them. Sometimes it is better not knowing.
tscheezy |
| Avid discs are no more work than V's. | Fingerpicker
Feb 26, 2003 3:01 PM | | You and I must ride different. I can go two years without changing brake pads. I think that is why you like disks that much more -- You use your brakes a lot more. I'm not calling you a whimp and saying that a real man just let's it coast down anything, I suspect you are on steeper stuff and ride more aggresively. I have to admit there are some steep sections where I wish I had some more brake power. Thanks for the input, you make a compelling case. I had decided to go non-disk last night. Now I don't know. |
| Come on now, dont even imply chest-beating and name-calling... | shiggy
Feb 26, 2003 4:14 PM | | ...If you rarely ride in the wet brake pads do last for years. If you ride in the slop like Tscheezy and I do, pads may not last one ride. My brake maintainence time is much less with Avid discs than it was with V-brakes.
If you have any place - as you suggest - that you wish for more brake, go discs. The increase in power and control, and reduced lever effort is more than worth it.
And sorry for the subject line, just do not want to start a flame war. |
| Come on now, dont even imply chest-beating and name-calling... | fingerpicker
Feb 26, 2003 4:37 PM | | The other forum I'm on has emoticons so you can tell when people are joking or not. I hope you all know I was joking, I was. A flame war would take two sides, and I'm not interested in any of that, so it would be one sided. I don't know Tscheezy very well but I think he has a sense of humor and doesn't have any interest in any of that either. It's good to know that Avid Mechanics disks require less maintainence. I'll factor that in to my decission. I change my mind about every 5 minutes. |
| Spokes DO count! | thegreatsatan
Feb 26, 2003 5:37 PM | | According to DT (http://www.dtswiss.com/en/speichen.html), 64 nipples weigh 64g brass/22g alloy (-41g), while 64 spokes weigh 445g 2.0pg/287g 2.0 Revolution (-158g)...
158g is hardly "almost nothing" and the difference can be felt in both less weight (acceleration) and a more resilient wheel.
I agree that hub weight is relatively insignificant (and the place where a lot of the heavily promoted wheels save the extra weight needed in the rim to tolerate low spoke counts).
I think that discs are mostly a marketing exercise unless (1) you use decent ones (2) you are a downhiller or (3) you ride a lot in mud... |
| Spokes DO count! | FIngerpicker
Feb 26, 2003 10:33 PM | | Thanks for the numbers on weight. So 200 grams per wheel or almost one pound total with the lighter wheels. That I think would be more noticable than disc brakes. I think I'll look for a lighter disk wheelset to keep the disk wheel option open.
I read the debate about wheel weight not making much of a difference except when you are acceleratin or decelerating. It was a nice debate to reed, but I think the point was missed that every pedal stroke on a mountain bike you are going at a different speed than the last. So you are allways decelerating and accelerating when you are riding. Wheel weight does make a big difference. |
| Sorry, spokes count a little. | Tscheezy
Feb 26, 2003 11:27 PM | | 158 grams is for 64 spokes. That's two wheels. That's about 5.5 ounces, a real amount, but nothing compared to what you can save with light tires (which Fingerpicker already addressed). Also, you are quoting DT Revolutions which I find a little flimsy for general use disc wheels. I would not go lighter than 2.0/1.8/2.0 (e.g. DT Competition) for discs unless you weigh under 150 pounds. I don't have numbers on the weight of the Competitions, but the savings are a lot less than for Revolutions. Likewise, alloy nipples are not a great idea with discs. You can get away with a lot with conventional wheels, but discs are not as forgiving because of the incredible stresses hub braking put on them. 517 rims can have the spoke nipple bed pull right out, something you would never see with rim brakes. I have some disc wheels with alloy nipples, but if I had to do it over again, I'd go brass.
I built a set of wheels for my girlfriend's bike: Hügi 240 disc, DT Competition spokes, brass nipples, Mavic X317 rims. Very light, very nice, and cost less than $300 to build (the hubs were only $150 at Pricepoint a while back). You CAN build light disc wheels, it just costs more.
And yes, I fried rim brake pads because they were never dry.
tscheezy |
| Sorry, spokes count a little. | Fingerpicker
Feb 27, 2003 8:12 AM | | Thanks for point out my error on that 2 or 1 wheel mixup. So what I have been seeing is real and for a good reason. For a fixed amount of money, if you want to go light, go V. If you want the performance of disk braking, you will pay a price in $$ and a small weight penalty for not going with alloy nipples. I was wondering why I never saw a disk wheel set with alloy nipples. So my wheel set is only 50 grams per wheel heavier, where it counts, because of the rim than the lightest I should reasonably go for a disk set. If I go disk, I see no good reason to change out the wheelset I have for 50 grams. I'll just wait two years and replace them. If I want some real weight savings I give up disks and get a light wheelset. Thanks again for your input and keeping me focused on what's important. Right now I'm leaning to the lighter wheelset and V's because I live in a such dry climate. |
| No one has mentioned this yet - why not only ONE disk brake? | kanaka
Feb 27, 2003 10:33 AM | | If the cost and weight are an issue, how about a compromise: just get one disk for the front, where 75% of your braking power comes from. |
| 100% agree... | næstep
Feb 27, 2003 12:19 PM | | If I were concerned with weight or the budget was tight, and I didn't give a rat's ass about rim wear, I'd stick with this combination. If I were racing I'd almost certainly run it. I ran this combo for nearly two years on my Joshua with a Avid 165 up front and performance-wise, it was all I needed for my mostly dry and hilly California rides.
I've since gone to front and rear discs, but weight isn't important to me and rim wear is. But the disc/V combo remains a viable setup to run.
næstep |
| Discs are for anyone... | dirttorpedo
Feb 27, 2003 9:42 AM | | Sorry, can't agree with your assessment of people who need v-brakes. I switch last spring and the jump in braking performance was equal to what I experienced going from cantis to v's. I'm riding a fair bit of xc with some minor fr and my mechanical discs (ie cheap low end stuff) has increased my confidence immensely. And they are so much easier to maintain than those finicky v-brakes. Hell I'd stick a pair on my commuter if I could afford it. |
| Not sure who you are replying to but I agree... | Tscheezy
Feb 27, 2003 10:56 AM | | and I DO have discs on my fully-rigid commuter. Infact I have a 185 rotor up front right now (just to see what it is like).
There are places where discs make a much much bigger difference than others. Here in coastal Alaska they are a surival tool. In sunny SoCal, they are a performance boost. I effectively don't have a choice on whether to run discs or not, but Fingerpicker does.
tscheezy |
| Not sure who you are replying to but I agree... | Fingerpicker
Feb 27, 2003 12:00 PM | | It is a hard choice. Because of the unknown. I know what light wheels and v brakes do. I don't know what disks do. I think I'll have to ride disks before I do anything. Tscheezy, did you buy a Cane Creek AD-10 shock off eBay that was the wrong size? |
| CC AD-10? No, why? nm | Tscheezy
Feb 27, 2003 12:36 PM | | |
| Anyone know about these? | Fingerpicker
Feb 27, 2003 12:14 PM | | A lightweight disk wheelset at Supergo----
http://www.supergo.com/itemdisplay.asp?parentid=21074&secid=7559&subid=7567
Specifications
Manufacturer: Alex
Model: Vectra T2
Year: 2003
Usage: MTB
Color: Black
Hub: Formula Sealed Bearing
Speed: 8/9 speed
Drilling: 20F/24R
Spokes: Stainless Black
Nipples: Brass
Axle: Alloy Fr, Cromo Rr
Weight: 700gm ft, 1000gm rr |
| No, but they sure look like Rolf Discs....(nm) | Mackie
Feb 27, 2003 12:35 PM | | |
| No, but they sure look like Rolf Discs....(nm) | Fingerpicker
Feb 27, 2003 12:36 PM | | Rolf liscenced their patent to them. |
| There are a lot of reasons why low spoke count wheels are | Tscheezy
Feb 27, 2003 12:52 PM | | not great for disc applications. Here are my personal biases:
First, because there aren't many spokes to tension and stabilize the rim, you need a heavier rim, which puts weight where you don't want it.
Braking forces are transmitted through the spokes to the rim, so you really need to beef up those few spokes to do the work that a normal wheel's many spokes would do.
They are near impossible to true because the distance between the spokes is so great. This is not as important with discs where a little wobble will not cause brake pad rubbing.
Replacement spokes are way harder to find, and rebuilding the wheel is way harder.
I would be very afraid of a "light" and "cheap" disc wheel, ESPECIALLY a low spoke count version.
The new XTR wheels look really nice, though. Too bad they cost almost twice what a nice set of King disc wheels do.
tscheezy |
| There are a lot of reasons why low spoke count wheels are | Fingerpicker
Feb 27, 2003 1:14 PM | | The sales guy was really pushing these. He said they've had them for over a year and no complaints. I had them in my hands, but I just didn't think they were right. My road riding friends love the Rolf wheels and talk about how comfortable they are. I agree with you that the stress on mountain disk wheels are so much greater than road wheels. I'm staying away from these. |
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