|   How many people still use "high end" V-brakes? | reek
Jun 17, 2003 1:02 PM | | Just curious, how many people still use or have invested in a nice V-brake set up? I remember going canti to V's and thinking "there can't be anything better". Then I remember thinking "I don't NEED discs". But turns out I can't imagine going back to V's. But I'm thinking of building up a nice light hardtail and am debating between disc or some nice V's. I do live in the wet northeast but will be moving back to California so not too concerned about wet weather. I'd just like to get everyone's feedback on this topic. |
| V's, yes...high end, ...not !!! heh nm. | IRnotAweenie
Jun 17, 2003 1:16 PM | | |
| Still use XTR Vs....for now.... | JoelW
Jun 17, 2003 1:18 PM | | Waiting on getting a new disc wheelset to put on a XTR disc/Avid mechanical combination on my bike. The XTR Vs have done me well, but I can't wait for discs. Using Vs isn't about light weight for me, more about not having disc hubs on my current wheelset and having to save my $ to buy the wheelset that I want. |
| I got Bombshell Precision Billet v's...in RED | Hells Freerider
Jun 17, 2003 3:31 PM | | Got discs on my freeride rig and these on my xc/trials rig |
| re: How many people still use "high end" V-brakes? | jimbo2k
Jun 17, 2003 1:21 PM | | The Ellsworth Isis has XTR Vees, The Sugar plus has Discs, the mountain cycles moho has disc front, Vee rear. The Moho has the most braking power, the Isis the best modulation. The Magura Louise on the fisher suck, having no power. If I hadnt gotten a disc specific fork, I would go back to xtr vees on this one too. IMHO Jim |
| Me... | debaucherous
Jun 17, 2003 1:27 PM | | Actually took off a pair of Hayes to replace them with Avid Arch Rivals. |
| Avid Ultimates | J.S.
Jun 17, 2003 1:47 PM | | I consider Avid Ultimates the best available rim brake at this time. Sealed bearings for zero slop translates to very good stoping power. Its performance is roughly the same as an ArchRival but doesn't have any clearance nor tire-size issues. They are also uber-light. I'm running a pair on my ride, and they work extremely well.
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| I do... | DIRT BOY
Jun 17, 2003 1:52 PM | | Avid Brakes
Avid Cables
Paul LPZ Brake Lever Set
Mavic Crossmax Ceramic Wheels.
I have not problems with the wet weather here in Florida or stopping power on technical trails.
I am thinking of going to disc ONLY because my road wheels are not ceramic and ceramic pads don't work well with regular rims. Also the rims have different widths so I need to adjust the brakes every time I use them.
For most applications V-Brakes are more than enough depending on the rider and terrain.
DIRT BOY
Light-Bikes.com - Largest Gallery of Light Weight Bikes |
| I still use low end v-brakes of various brands | tl1
Jun 17, 2003 1:56 PM | | And set up properly even the low end ones stop great. |
| My Tektros broke off in my hands. | Eug
Jun 17, 2003 4:35 PM | | My Tektro snapped when I was tightening the nut that holds the cable.
I use XTs now. |
| dumped V's in '99, never going back... | JimC.
Jun 17, 2003 1:56 PM | | thoughts: there are good V's and bad V's. There are good discs and bad discs; mechanical and hydraulic.
IMHO steep hills for descent and wet riding makes discs totally necessary, and render V's useless and in some cases dangerous.
IMHO V's might be fine in a dry sunny climate and perhaps for racing, but since I don't race, I'm not sure on that.
BUT, it's no often you hear someone say "gee I'm glad I have Vbrakes" unless they really love them and they aren't trying to sell their ride.
Out here on the Wet Coast, you see almost no Vbrakes on any serious rider's bike; I'm sure the reverse is true in other drier places.
Jim |
| Just a few more weeks... | Titan
Jun 17, 2003 2:03 PM | | I'm using XTR V-brakes now, and switching to Avid Mechs 185F/160R after an upcoming trip and race. I sure am hoping not to lose ANY stopping power. I'm finally exhausted from the meticulous wheel truing, repairing rim dents, replacing worn-through rims, having mud clumps scrape through my brakes, and losing most of my braking power in rain. I look at my boxes of shiny new parts and just can't wait to see if this is worth it. |
| It's worth it ... | Philber
Jun 17, 2003 6:32 PM | | All the things you say are big advantages of discs and you'll love the Avid mechs. Even if the stopping power of the discs was the same as rim brakes (which it isn't - it's much better), they would still be my choice because of the integrity of a small steel rotor versus the relative fragility of a rim.
I still have a bike with XT V's, and they work fine. But that aint' the bike I grab when I'm riding technical steep tight trails in wet weather! Never having to stop to take a stick and gouge out pounds of mud from a rim brake assembly is reason enough! |
| Avid mags on my YBB in CO--not sure I'd go to discs | jimmy
Jun 17, 2003 2:05 PM | | The disk brake models keep changing, I wouldn't even know what brand to use. There is the weight factor & the cost factor. In CO it is pretty dry so no mud issues. Its like the old hardtail debate. Supposedly hardtails are dead, but you see lots & lots of them on the trails, all over CO, in Fruita, Crested Butte, Moab too. Same with V style brakes. |
| Three MTBs, two with disks. Upgrading the last one soon. (nm) | Biking Viking
Jun 17, 2003 2:19 PM | | |
| re: How many people still use "high end" V-brakes? | Boganbiker
Jun 17, 2003 4:35 PM | | Two bikes, two sets of hydro disks. When i ride vee's i dont know how i used to do it, they scare me. The extra control and power in all situations (even dry) far outweigh any weight penalty in my opinion. I'll never have a bike with vee's again. |
| NOPE... first upgrade I did years back..... | timbo
Jun 17, 2003 5:05 PM | | .....was to go to discs. It is a little wet here and there are a few creek crossings where I ride most often, so the Vs were the first thing changed. Even in dry conditions, I like my Hayes and Avids better than Vs....
Even if you are going to California (jealous here!!) I'd go disc. The weight issue is not that big....
One vote for "Go Discs"
Good Luck |
| Do these count... | JmZ
Jun 17, 2003 6:40 PM | | Three bikes...
Avid Tri-Align 3
Avid Tri-Align 3
Hershey Long Neck
Wife's Bike
Hershey Long Neck
I live in the mid-west and I'll be the first to admit I'm a fair weather rider.
The advantages of V-Brakes suite me pretty well. They are cheaper than Disc, ligher, and the last ones I tried didn't offer the same modulation.
The next wheels I'm building though have disc hubs to give me an option. :)
JmZ |
| Yup, Avid Arch rivals. I don't need/want disc. (nm) | bungyfish
Jun 18, 2003 4:42 AM | | |
| These are the cases where you can see we are just buyers.... | Lafayette
Jun 18, 2003 5:24 AM | | ...and numbers on companye´s statistics.Now V-brakes will stop its evolution becouse companies will focus on what the market tendences say=discs (see "new" 2003 XTR v´s and coming "new" XT´s). This reminds me the steel frames thing. I agreed very much with someone that said that if steel appeared today would be titled as a wonder material...but you know, now it´s old. And nowadays "old" is almost equal to "bad".Well, at least for the selling diagrams. |
| Steel is high end, not old. | Rev Bubba
Jun 18, 2003 6:07 AM | | You want old, try aluminum. Seems that high end steel and Ti frames are where the market is going for hardtails at least and aluminum is passe. There is an article in the current issue of Bike that says that custom frame builders who are mostly building steel hardtails are doing more business than ever as people seek something "different."
I think you are seeing that older riders who have "been there, done that" are returning to steel hardtails and v-brakes because they want to go with what works, not what the media tells us that works.
On the whole, our sport is young and it really is only recently that we are developing a group of veteran riders who are willing to make their own decisions. Decisions that are not driven by what the latest and greatest is supposed to be but what works for them in their type of riding conditions. It takes a few years to learn for yourself what does work for you.
We all must rely on other's input at first but eventually find our own level of comfort. |
| Agree re: steel - Disagree re: hardtails and v brakes | Philber
Jun 18, 2003 10:39 AM | | Some folks are going back to (or staying with ) steel, for its durability and feel. But I don't know too many people who are going back to hardtails, and I don't know anybody who is going back to v's from disks.
You say people are "returning to steel hardtails and v-brakes because they want to go with what works, not what the media tells us that works.". I've got a bike with discs and a bike with V's and I can tell you that I don't prefer the discs because the media has told me they're better. I prefer the discs because they are hands down, head and shoulders better than the V's.
Most of the folks I ride with are not weight weenies. We don't race, and we ride technical trails in a wide variety of conditions. I don't think any of us would ever consider for a second going back to V-brakes. |
| I went back to V's and a hardtail so it does happen | Rev Bubba
Jun 18, 2003 11:17 AM | | I still have an FS with discs and for certain applications, it is the proper bike but for my overall riding, I really have much more fun on my 23.5 lbs. hardtail. Maybe I'm a weight weenie or closet racer, but I just like it better. Most people I regularly ride with have hardtails and v-brakes and do not want to change.
I guess disc brakes stop better, at least everyone keeps saying that, but I already stop when I want to in all conditions I usually ride in. The only place I really perfer discs is for lift served downhill where fad is an issue. In extremely wet conditions, I do take out my disc bike but I normally do not ride in that type of weather. (except at Jim Thorpe where it always rains for the mountain bike weekend)
My point was that as a group, people are getting more experience with what they want and some are finding that a custom frame that really fits is more fun than a full suspension that smooths out the ride but does not fit as well. Fit is just so much more important. If you have no experience with a custom frame, you can not identify with what I'm getting at. I never thought it could make riding so much more enjoyable.
Maybe the next step will be custom FS frames. I know Titus has some capability in that area and that Independent Fabrication is looking into it but just how custom those frames are or will be remains to be seen.
No one type of bike or brake or component is best. Each has its merits and people who want those things have the option of buying that product. Heck, I also think rapid rise makes alot more sense than conventional shifters so you know I'm not exactly main stream in my likes.
Peace. |
| Wow, that's exactly what happened to me | FritzMan
Jun 18, 2003 11:44 AM | | Raced a 24 lbs Superlight with discs for 6+ months. A few weeks ago, I finally realised that maybe the Superlight didn't fit my needs. I decided to give my gravel-training ORYX HT some attention and decided to built it up as light as I could with my existing parts (22.25lbs). After 6 month of constant tinkering of brakes, I decided to keep the setup simple and go back with the SRAM 9.0 Vs which I liked so much. WOW! Right away, I was riding the HT a cog higher using the exact same cassette and rings from the Superlight. Acceleration was instant and easy, and I was able to get out of the saddle anytime I felt like it. Being a longer frame, I also noticed that I was lower and more stretched out, yet a shorter 100mm stem (which I've always preferred) gave me stability in the technical stuff. Completely different ride, fast, efficient, and pure. Dare I say... more fun??? A suspension seatpost will still be sought, but the Superlight will definitely be put up for sale. |
| Avid Ti w/ Paul Levers work just fine even in the rain.... | Rev Bubba
Jun 18, 2003 5:09 AM | | Just got back from three very wet and muddy days at Jim Thorpe. Don't see any need for disc for general riding. I save the discs for my FS that I use for downhill and light freeride situations. |
| Your rims disagree. | Stick
Jun 18, 2003 8:04 AM | | Good rim brakes work great, and yes, some even work when wet. Arch supremes are amazing brakes w/ a surprising amount of stopping power. They're easy to set up, too.
BUT...
If you ride in the mud, your rims will wear out A LOT faster, and you can forget about riding in snow/ice. Stopping power quickly approaches zero. And there's no comparison at all when it comes to modulation.
Quality disc brakes are superior in so many ways that I'd never choose to go back to V's. The only disadvantages are weight and cost, but weights are coming down (besides, the diff is hardly noticeable) and they'll pay for themselves over time because there's no need to replace rims as often. |
| Sorry, I can't agree with those points... | FritzMan
Jun 18, 2003 10:41 AM | | Have you tried ceramic rims? They last *much* longer than regular rims. Also, the power and modulation are vastly improved with ceramic. In thick mud, yes discs do better, but they also deteriorate, wear the pads much faster, and sqeal like dying pigs. Let's put it this way, for equivalent riding, you'll spend much more than price of a replacement rim in disc pads versus slim pads. Cost is roughly $35 per end for Marta pads, $5 for Koolstop pads (which I found lasted much longer), and $74 for a ceramic rim after 3 years of 500 hrs/yr use.
As for riding in snow and ice, I ride year-round in Canada, and if the rims stay dry (ie: not in a puddle or anything) then there's no issue. It takes a bit of a unique day to have sub zero temps with wet precipitation on the ground.
Also, while the weight is now hardly different between the two, I find the location of weight still makes a difference. Having higher spoke count and 60+ gr of rotating steel on a rim does make a noticable difference in rotational performance. I recently switched back from Martas to SRAM 9.0 (XMax both rims) and I couldn't believe what I had given up for discs.
Discs are definitely better for heavier trail riding etc. But for XC riding in reasonably dry conditions (ie: not Seattle) then V's can perform quite well. |
| you don't have to agree... | Stick
Jun 18, 2003 11:43 AM | | But I'll stick to what I said.
Ceramic rims make a bit of difference, that much is true. However, they cost more, and the ceramic coating is hardly permanent. I've seen it flake off of Crossmax and other expensive Mavic CD rims. Meanwhile, a plain jane rhino lite costs half as much, takes a lot more abuse and discs will stop it on a dime regardless of conditions.
As for the $35 v $5 cost of pads?!? Hayes and XT disc pads can be had for about $20 (US) I've never seen any V pads for $5. Typically, they run $9 to $15 depending on manufacturer and compound. Not that big a difference.
Pad life depends too much on conditions to say disc pads wear faster than V's. A single day in the mud is enough to wear through some V pads. Maybe one can say the same about disc pads, but that's not been my experience. Particularly because the rotor rarely gets as dirty as a rim rolling through mud.
Doesn't take a unique day at all for ice to form on rims during winter in Pennsylvania. It's actually pretty common. Imagine a stream crossing. Ice forms on the surface, but there's still very cold liquid water flowing beneath. Wheel breaks ice. Rim gets wet. Rolling through snow causes freezing. Also, tires load up with slush and snow. Some gets flung up onto and around the brake arch (just like mud). As it accumulates, some falls onto brake pads.
Granted, this doesn't happen on every ride between December and April, but it happens to some extent on almost every ride in the snow.
I never said V's don't work well. Quite the contrary. They're light and powerful and perfectly fine during favorable conditions. I used them year-round, riding and racing, for 5 years (and cantilever brakes for 5 prior to V's). I switched to hydraulic discs this past winter (a VERY snow-filled one) and I see no reason to ever go back. The increased performance and confidence in adverse conditions make the weight penalty moot. |
| Bill Larson sells Koolstop $6 and 7/pr. Shop around. (nm) | FritzMan
Jun 19, 2003 2:51 AM | | |
| what's your point? | Stick
Jun 19, 2003 5:19 AM | | Who's Bill Larson? Yeah, mail order places sell XT/XTR pads for $5, but then I have to pay shipping, etc. Aztec disc pads only cost $12. So what?
In the end, the difference in pad price makes a very weak argument for why V's are "better". Obviously, you like V-brakes. Yippee for you.
I'll keep my discs, thanks. |
| Defensive aren't we? | FritzMan
Jun 19, 2003 7:05 AM | | I'm only discussing against your initial points to Rev Bubba:
"If you ride in the mud, your rims will wear out A LOT faster,..."
- Don't agree. Ceramic rim wear is marginal at best, regardless of conditions. To contra your point though, IMO, disc pads wear faster than Vs in mud.
"...and you can forget about riding in snow/ice. Stopping power quickly approaches zero... "
- wrong again. I've ridden many times with Vs. Obviously you have to stay out of streams - but it's not like you'd be looking for them for those few days when they're not fully frozen and it's freezing outside eh?
"And there's no comparison at all when it comes to modulation. "
- Others have already posted they don't agree with you there. From personal experience I don't either, even in the wet. Granted, power is not the same, although I think some XC discs are not much better.
And as for actual operation costs, lets do a little math. How many sets of pads do you go through in 3 years? Two per season is not unreasonable. Consider the $10 difference between discs and V pads in cost per end. Two sets per season, $40 extra in disc pads per season. $40 x 3 seasons = $120 in extra disc pad costs compared to when a typical ceramic rim is done. $120 - $150 for new rims means at best, you're a whopping $30 in the hole over 3 years if running Vs. So like I said before, cost of rim wear is a negliable point.
I never said Vs are "better" overall for everything, I said they're better for certain situations regarding terrain, rider weight/skill, and weather. IMO, V brakes are better at rolling quicker overall, easier to tune/setup/repair, less touchy to bike orientation, quieter, and cheaper.
Oh, and I'm selling my discs, thanks. |
| *sigh* | Stick
Jun 19, 2003 7:36 AM | | ""And there's no comparison at all when it comes to modulation. "
- Others have already posted they don't agree with you there. From personal experience I don't either, even in the wet. Power is not the same (although I think XC discs are not much better)."
Others may not agree. Makes no difference. I simply stated my own personal experience w/ discs vs. v's. On steep, wet roots and rocks (which are everywhere around here) there's no comparison. Yes, I used to ride the same stuff year-round w/ V's but discs inspire far greater confidence and control in those situations. Likewise, in the snow.
Your math may be spot-on, for all I know. Maybe ceramic rims do indeed last 3 'seasons', but I know a few people whose experience w/ them tells a different story and I've got enough rims in my attic w/ brake tracks worn scary-thin and concave to convince me that rim wear is an issue.
We ride all year here, so breaking things down in terms of seasons is kind of pointless, and your math fails to take into account the hassle of rebuilding your wheels. Building and truing wheels is either time consuming, costly, or both. I'd much rather spend 5 minutes once or twice a year pulling out disc pads (with no tools) and replacing them. Less down time = more time to ride.
I'm not being defensive, I'm just calling it the way I see it. Ride whatever you want. Stop however you want. But, unless weight savings is your ultimate goal, there's no good reason to choose V-brakes.
Agreeing to disagree...
-Stick |
| 5 of 6 bikes have V brakes | BH
Jun 18, 2003 7:24 AM | | All XT or XTR. The V brakes have been much more trouble free than the disks. |
| High and Low | tlg
Jun 18, 2003 9:17 AM | | I use XTR V's on the front. Cheap and light tektros in the rear. I can lock up the rear anytime if I wanted to. That's enough power for me.
I hate riding in the mud. If I did more wet riding I'd consider discs. |
| Still love my Avid Arch Rivals | kanaka
Jun 18, 2003 9:40 AM | | I'm not anti-disc, and I will eventually get discs, probably. But for now, I'm happy with my Arch Rivals. |
| From high-end discs back to V (SRAM 9.0) and loving it! | FritzMan
Jun 18, 2003 10:11 AM | | I went from XMax ceramic with SRAM 9.0 to XMax disc Martas. After 9 months of non-stop tinkering to get the right feel, I finally switched everything back and I couldn't believe how much quicker the bike rode. I forgot how easy it was to setup the lever to my taste (and without having to bleed!!!). Although braking was slightly less powerful, there's is still plenty there for racing etc... Honestly, it depends on your riding terrain and technique. I rarely used the discs at full power, and the SRAM 9.0 on ceramic is pretty damn powerful (ie: getting out-braked into a corner in a race has never been a problem). The best part of not having discs is that there's finally no more worries of bleeding, bent rotors, dragging pads, having the bike upside down, shimming the caliper to account for uneven pad wear and fork alignment, and trying to get a more sensive lever. |
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