|   Snake bite question... | Richard
Jul 17, 2003 10:12 AM | | what are you supposed to do if you get bitten by a snake (in particular, a rattle snake). Yesterday I came around a corner and barely avoided hitting a rattle snake sunning himself on the trail.
I've heard that you don't want to elevate your heart rate. Also, I've heard you have up to 6 hours to seek treatment. truth or fiction? |
| Jesus! ....and I thought you were asking about flat tires....! | Cook
Jul 17, 2003 10:26 AM | | ....all I know is you're suppossed to get a gorgeous blonde with big hooters to suck out the venom. That's how it's done in the movies, so it must be true. |
| Again, a slight correction.... | Ken in KC.
Jul 17, 2003 11:28 AM | | If you prefer redheads or brunettes, you can subsitute.
Ken |
| Yes, but the hooters are mandatory for proper treatment. (nt) | Cook
Jul 17, 2003 11:39 AM | | |
| I thought that was common knowledge.... | Ken in KC.
Jul 17, 2003 11:55 AM | | I guess not.
Ken |
| Hey, I always knew it, just wanna keep the newbies informed! (nt) | Cook
Jul 17, 2003 11:56 AM | | |
| This PSA is brought to you by Cook... | Ken in KC.
Jul 17, 2003 12:10 PM | | and The Dollhouse, and The Landing Strip.
LOL
Perhaps there's some educational grant moeny you could apply for; for additional research?
Ken |
| Are those peeler joints? | Cook
Jul 17, 2003 12:22 PM | | I don't recognize the names.....and I was damned sure I'd seen 'em all!!!! ;) |
| I'm disappointed in you... | Ken in KC.
Jul 17, 2003 12:26 PM | | The Dollhouse, as in the Motley Crew song.
The Landing Strip is at the end of the runnway at Pearson Int. in Toronto. It was the only one I could think of.
Ken |
| sorry.... | Cook
Jul 17, 2003 12:30 PM | | I'd recognize the name of an AC/DC tune long before Motley Crew. As far as peeler joints go, if you ever visit Cleveland, find the touristy area called 'the Flats' and find the peeler joint there. Canadians peel more, but Americans peel better. I visit Cleveland every year on the premise of watching the Grand Prix, but it's the Sat night visit to the flats that really take me there! |
| LOL! Nasty Norma's! | Ken in KC.
Jul 17, 2003 12:35 PM | | The only time I've travelled through Cleveland was on my way to Erie PA. We took a wrong turn and wound up in what appeared to be the lower end cultural district. The only thing I remember about it as we drove through was a small, dingy building with a big sign: Nasty Norma's! We didn't stop, but their marketing was terrific, as this trip was about 10 years ago, yet I still remember the name of the place.
ken |
| LOL.... | Cook
Jul 17, 2003 12:38 PM | | Every year I go there and I'm the only single guy amongst 3 or 4 married dudes I travel with. The peeler joint has a special where you drop a crapload of cash and get a lap-dance and a scented t-shirt. None of the married guys are allowed to take their t-shirts home with them, so I get a new white-trash wardrobe every year.
Okay, that's my last peeler message, I suspect we're very close to offending somebody. ;) |
| We crossed that line many posts ago... | Ken in KC.
Jul 17, 2003 12:43 PM | | Why stop now? ummmm, scented T-shirts. I can only imagine that they reek of class. Pure class.
Ken |
| When you've got about 13 rye and gingies in you..... | Cook
Jul 17, 2003 12:48 PM | | ....you fall asleep in the hotel room with that shirt over your nose and have the best sleep ever. Sorry, too much information for others, but ohhhhhh....the memories.....can't wait for next year. Do you have any spare yankee dollars? Canadian loonies don't get you very far at the clubs........LOL |
| You might try... | Ken in KC.
Jul 17, 2003 12:55 PM | | Twoonies. They're more shiny than the Loonies.
Ken |
| Metal coins..... | Cook
Jul 17, 2003 12:57 PM | | ....aren't striptease friendly. They tend to drop out and wake up all the drunks. God, I hate it when that happens. Bills are preferred. I'll send you some twoonies at a preferential rate for Yankee bills. |
| If you go to a low enough class place... | Ken in KC.
Jul 17, 2003 1:09 PM | | I would definitely offend people if I started telling you about the ripper bars in the Phillipinnes. The very talented employees could make change. It wasn't pretty.
That's a story for a gathering and MUCH beer... None of that crappy Slemins stuff either. Good ol' Coors.
Ken |
| I'm there..the Phillipines or the Gathering. Let me know. (nt) | Cook
Jul 17, 2003 1:20 PM | | |
| "Thee" Dollhouse (nm) | BadHabit
Jul 17, 2003 12:22 PM | | |
| "Thee" Dollhouse (nm) | southbeachsmoothie
Jul 17, 2003 8:53 PM | | The Dollhouse and the Seventh Vail are both near me in Fort Lauderdale... Mon's Venus in Tampa was one of the greatest places to go before the stupid law changed. If you so chose, the elequent dancer would offer to FINISH the lap dance in an obscured both for an extra $40. Now there is a 6ft. limit between dancer and customer...figuer that one out... |
| "Mons" ha ha ha! | BadHabit
Jul 18, 2003 6:59 AM | | That's a good word. |
| re: Snake bite question... | fz4vgq
Jul 17, 2003 10:41 AM | | I live in Michigan so I don't have to worry about snakes but I did just vacation in Arizona so I did some homework before going. You should not assume this but most rattlesnake bites that occur while you are out riding by yourself are usually (I say usually, not always) "dry" bites, meaning that the snake is startled so quickly that the bite does not release any venom into you. But if you are the third rider in a group and get bitten then the snake probably had time to fill it's venom ducts above the fangs and release the venom into you. I know from reading threads on this board before that if the bite is from a Mojave Green Rattlesnake (looks just like a Western Diamondback but has a defenite green hue) you might as well start praying for a miracle. I think your best bet is to purchase a quality (spend the extra money) venomous snakebite kits at a reputable hiking store, NOT one of those general/no name kits at the local "WallyWorld sports store. |
| if you're blonde with big hooters don't read this post! (nt) | Cook
Jul 17, 2003 10:45 AM | | |
| A slight correction... | Ken in KC.
Jul 17, 2003 11:05 AM | | Dry bites can occur, but a Rattlesnakes venom sacs are always full, unless they've just envenomated something. A rattlesnake (actually, every venomous snake in the US except the Coral Snake) have poison sacks (glands, actually) in the roof of their mouth.
The fangs of a rattlesnake are hollow (think hyperdermic needles) that are attached directly to the poison glands. There is a small "check valve" that prevents the toxin from constantly leaching out of the fangs.
When a rattlesnake strikes, it sinks its fangs in as deep as it can, thus applying pressure on the poison sacks. The pressure from the poison sacks contacting the skin of whatever the snake is striking is enough to overcome the check valve, thus releasing the toxins through the fangs and in to the victim.
It's important to note that it takes quite a bit of time and energy for a snake to reproduce its venom. Since the primary purpose of the venom is to kill food, if a snake strikes and releases venom, and food happens to walk by soon after, the snake goes hungry. Dry bites don't occur as a result of the snake not producing venom, they occur because the snake really doesn't want to envenomate a human. They want to save their toxin for their next meal.
I'm not familiar with a Mojave Green Rattlesnake, so I can't comment on the toxicity of their venom.
Ken |
| Rattlesnakes... | Ken in KC.
Jul 17, 2003 10:54 AM | | Depending upon where you ride and the types of Rattlesnakes in your area, the treatment will vary.
The most lethal rattlesnake in N. America is the Eastern Diamondback. It is lethal because the thing is HUGE. The amount of venom an Eastern Diamondback can envenomate a person can be lethal. The frequency of Eastern Diamondback bites, much less fatalities are extremly low because dumbass, ignorant, sloped cranium idiots have killed them as such a rate that they're actually extremely rare. sorry, back to your question.....
In addition to Eastern Diamondback, the most dangerous poisonous snakes in N. America are the Cottonmouth and Coral Snake. Cottonmouths are predominently a water based snake, and therefor don't pose a huge threat to us if we're on the trails. Coral Snakes are in the Cobra family. Their venom is fairly potent, but they are a rear fanged snake, which means they really have to chew on you a while to envenomate you. The likelyhood of anyone stadnign around long enough for a Coral Snake to poison them is fairly low.
Rattlesnakes as a whole aren't deadly. They will cause you a lot of pain and suffering, but unless you suffer an allergic reation to their venom, they won't kill you.
Proper treatment is to elevate the wound above your heart, try to keep your heartrate down (easier said than done, if you've just been bitten by a rattlesnake), and apply moderate pressure above the wound (between the wound and your heart). The basic idea is that you would like to keep the toxin located in close proximity to the wound and avoid spreading it throughout the rest of your body.
What not to do:
1. don't cut and suck. Cutting a wound is a bad idea. Your body affords some natural degree of protection and cutting the wound only exposes more soft tissue to damage.
Sucking is bad! While our stomaches can process snake poisons, any cuts or nicks in the soft tissue in your mouth or throat will absorb the poison and introduce it in to the rest of your body.
2. No tourniquets! While you want to slow down the rate at which the toxin is introduced to your body, as I mentioned before, rattlesnake bites are rarely fatal. More people die from lightning strikes in the US than snake bites. Tourniquets, on the other hand can be applied with catastrophic results. Most people (including the medical profession) don't know how to properly apply tourniquets. The result is usually the loss of a limb. Tourniquets should only be used in life or death situations. Rattlesnake bites aren't one of them.
If you're bitten, you should seek treatment immediately! Internal damage caused by snakebites can be substancially reduced by immediate treatment. The long you wait to be treated, the more damge the toxin does to your system and the longer your recovery time will be.
note: I stayed at a Holiday Inn last night. I also used to catch Rattlesnakes and Copperheads and sell them to poison control centers for them to produce anti-venom when I was in high school ($30 for a Rattlesnake and $10 for a Copperhead). I used to tag them and after the poison control center milked them and allowed them to restock with venom, I would release them where I cuaght them, provided I didn't catch them near populated areas.
hope this helps.
Ken |
| Proper treatment is to elevate the wound ABOVE your heart? | MBA
Jul 17, 2003 11:37 AM | | Ken, thanks for the info, but did I get this right? It sounds counterintuitive. If I'm bitten in the leg and reise my leg above my heart, won't that just cause the blood to leave the leg and travel down? |
| Let me check... | Ken in KC.
Jul 17, 2003 11:41 AM | | I think I provided correct information, but I will check and get back....
Ken |
| I've checked, I was wrong. Please read this.... | Ken in KC.
Jul 17, 2003 11:54 AM | | You are quite correct. The bite should be maintained AT heart level. If the wound is elevated, it will run down toward the heart. If it is below the heart, it will induce swelling.
DO NOT RAISE THE WOUND ABOVE THE HEART.
Sorry about the misinformation. Also, a couple of other thoughts:
1. An ace bandage wrapped no tighter than you would for a sprained ankle is suggested.
2. Iodine topically (unless you are allergic, or allergic to shellfish) is recomended.
3. A google search will provide you with much more detailed information than a mountain biking board, but be careful about the source of your information. My reference fo rhte information I revised and listed above is Steven Angelo, M.D., Assistant Professor of Medicine, Yale School of Medicine, New Haven, CT and is current as of 2/6/2003.
Ken |
| thanks | MBA
Jul 17, 2003 12:24 PM | | I'm in San Diego and se rattlers all the time. Scares the heck out of me since I usually only manage to stop 6-10 feet before them. I'm constantly looking for what looks like a small pile or semi-straight stick stretched out accross the trail. Where the single-track is too narrow or twisty, I just take my chances :( |
| Bunny hop? | Ken in KC.
Jul 17, 2003 12:32 PM | | I've only encountered one while riding. I was flowing on Council Bluffs Lake Trail (Southern Missouri has some epic trails), came around a turn and started down a hill. Lying across the trail was a Timber Rattlesnake. I bunny hopped it, got off my bike and went back to warn the other folks riding with me.
This was the same ride that an owl was flowing and "riding" the trail cooridor in front of one of us. Definitely a memorable ride.
Ken |
| Snakes or Spiders | Snake in my pants!
Jul 17, 2003 1:53 PM | | I don't mind the Snakes so much. Thanks Ken for all the great info. Its those eight legged spiders that scare the crap out of me! |
| Holiday Inn? Wow. | kevl
Jul 18, 2003 8:46 AM | | I always liked those commericials.
I'd like to re-iterate the seek medical attention ASAP. If you indeed make it to the hospital and require anti-venom, you want to allow enough time for them to get additional venom if needed. I know a guy who was bitten by a Timber Rattler (I think, are timbers native to Kansas?) and went to the hospital. Whatever type of rattler it was, it had been introduced into Kansas (i.e. someone brought it in from its native habitat and released it here) so the hospital was not prepared for it. They had enough venom for the Kansas variety of rattlers, but in this case he was bitten by a more "poisonous" variety and required more than the normal amount. The hospital went through their supply and then had to wait until another hospital shipped its stock to them.
As it is, Eric said it wasn't a fun wait and he almost lost a finger or two. Bottom line with rattlers, don't try to pick them up unless you're absolutely sure what you're doing; then make sure of your technique. Eric works with snakes and his equipment failed on him (poor quality snake stick) which is probably why it wasn't worse than it was.
kevl |
| Thanks for the info... | PiroChu
Jul 18, 2003 11:14 AM | | Although all the off-topic posts above were starting to make me worried, thanks for providing the on-topic info. :-D
I, too, am very scared of snakes (any snakes; even watching on TV or in a mag freaks me out!), and being in Northern California provides me with opportunities to run into rattlers. (Luckily just a few occasional glimbs from afar, so far...)
A couple of more (hypothetical) questions here...
A) In the case you encounter one in the blind corner at speed, when you can't stop before it...
* If a rattler is stretched out (sun-bathing), then it's most likely safe to bummy hop over it, right? (No sudden striking?)
* If a rattler is already coiled up, there's a good chance it'll strike (hopefully the front tire!?) while you bummy hop over it, right? (Again, assuming that this is in the sitaution you don't have enough time to stop before it. I guess no choice, then, anyway...?)
B) Also, what would YOU do, if you were riding solo, got bitten by a rattler at the bottom of the out-&-back nowhere-land mountain trails (meaning that all that's left is a long climb back to the car / civilization - so you can't keep the heart rate down), and your cell phone didn't work? Wait till you see someone ride by with a slim chance???
I know I'm just freaking out a bit here, but I'm really really not good with snakes... |
| I'll just add a few bits of info | Yeti_Rider
Jul 17, 2003 4:26 PM | | what Ken said is all sound advice.
First, at least in the southwest (San Diego to be specific) we only have to worry about rattlers. I've seen plenty of them and have yet to ever be struck at. In fact, I saw one the other day that was about 4 feet long and as thick as my forearm!
Anyway, if the snake is stretched out across the trail sunning himself, he's pretty sleepy and lethargic and not much of a threat. I've seen four riders and then myself pass a snoozing rattler in this state without the fellow even moving. It's when they're awake that they're more of a problem.
Generally, A snake will strike at the first thing it "sees". Since snakes have generally sh!tty eyesight, they rely on their tongue to tell them how big and close something is. So, if you come around a corner and see a snake you have two options. One is to obviously stop before it. The second, is to ride past it and/or bunnyhop it like I did at the end of this video http://www.mountainbikebill.com/videos/Flightline-Web.mpg. Granted, this wasn't a rattler but the technique is still the same.
The thing to remember when doing this is to keep your feet level so that they are as far away as the striking area as possible. The snake will want to strike at what it thinks is the first part of the enemy which would be the front tire and general area.
Keep in mind too that if you don't appear to be food then even if alarmed the snake will probably not strike but just get the he!! out of the way. They only wish to strike when hunting or really threatened rather than just alarmed. If they're alarmed they'll rattle at you but if you give them space they'll just go along there merry way.
I'm not worried about them on the trail, I'm more afraid of crashing and landing on one not on the trail and just striking out of fear. if they're onthe trail you can be pretty assured that you'll be okay. I rode by one the other day (couldn't stop in time so I just kept on going) and he slithered all the way across the trail before he decided to rattle at the rest of the group as they went by.
The big mother I came across did scare me though. At first I wasn't sure what it was but he was already coiled before we came along and I saw his head move. I slammed on the brakes and actually had the back end about a foot off the ground as I was stopping. I stopped about 4 feet from him and even then with all the noise he didn't bother rattling or striking. He just quitely slid off the trail to let us pass. |
| Two buddies go hiking in the woods ... | Philber
Jul 17, 2003 5:28 PM | | They're 20 miles from home. One of 'em gets bitten by a rattlesnake, right on his dick. He's lying on the ground in mortal agony, and his buddy says "Don't worry mate, I'll go and get help." His buddy trudges through swamps, bogs, fields, rocks, mountains and sand to get to the nearest town. He seeks out a doctor and explains that his friend got bitten by a rattlesnake. The doctor says, "Here's what ya gotta do. Ya gotta go back there, and ya gotta find out where he's been bitten. Then ya gotta suck out all the venom. Keep sucking until you're sure it's all gone. If you don't get it all, he'll die."
The guy hikes back to his friend, through the sand, mountains, rocks, fields, bogs and swamps. It's nighttime when he gets back, and his buddy is barely alive. His buddy asks "Did you find a doctor?" and and he replies "Yup, I did." The guy asks "What did the doc say?". And his friend replies, "He says you're gonna die." |
| True Story | Zeke
Jul 18, 2003 12:14 PM | | True story - I was coming around a corner and saw a very large snake sunning itself and tried to stop. I should have just bunny hopped. I ended up stopping my front tire right on top of it in the middle of its back. Turned out it was a big ol' rattler, and yes he was now very pissed off. The snake went after the tire - it's big head went right past my left foot and actually struck at the tire/rim. Scared the hell out of me. I was already jumping off backwards. As I was running away I looked back, the snake was doing the same thing running (slithering) away. Since then I have had several rattle snake encounters. Really don't know what to do if bit, but for the most part they want nothing to do with us - give room and they will leave rather than standing ground. Just watch out for the baby one's with no rattles yet. They will strike without notice. A local lady just got bit by a young one two weeks ago. Walked out and drove to the hospital. Was pretty messed up but survived. If you do get bit, try not to panic and try to keep your heart rate down so the venom travels as slowly as possible. I have heard that sucking out the venom is not the right thing to do, but can't say for sure. |
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