|   To whoever invented the retractable 50 ft. dog-leash! | Snuz
Aug 15, 2003 12:46 PM | | I put a hex on your soul. You've almost killed me twice this year. |
| I'll second that! | Titan
Aug 15, 2003 2:08 PM | | Never being a dog owner, the whole point of a "leash" that a pup can spool out from here to Mars is lost on me. I guess it's a nice way to circumvent leash laws.
Inventor and user should be stripped and thrown into the patch of stinging nettles I was diverted into early this season by an exuberant canine. |
| No kiddin' | consolidated
Aug 15, 2003 2:59 PM | | I take a b-i-g radius around those rigs, you never know when they're going to try and jump in your spokes. Why is it that they're usually only attached to small dogs that think they're squirrels? Don't get me wrong, I like critters, just not in my chainrings. ; ) |
| No kiddin' | Low_bias
Aug 15, 2003 4:28 PM | | Quit your bitchin', fellas. You know, you can bush a button and instantly turn those things into 2' leashes, but it is nice to have the otion of letting the dog burn up some energy when nobody is around.
If you have had close calls, you probably didn't give the people enough warning that you were coming. It is ESPECIALLY important to give people ample warning when they are walking dogs, and when you are hauling ass. If you don't, not only do the people not have time to real in the leash, but the dog is also suprised. They think you are trying to sneak up on them and can sometimes (understandably) get pretty defensive because of it. |
| I give NO warning | Porter
Aug 16, 2003 5:49 AM | | Why should I give everyone a warning when I pass them? When I drive my car down the road I don't honk every time I pass. In general people need to be more aware of their surroundings.
If I'm back in the woods I always alert people to my presence, but if I'm on a road or paved trail I don't feel the need to warn everyone. In some instances I've noticed that if you warn someone they'll actually get startled, not know what to do, and then make the situation worse by either doing nothing, or moving the wrong way. If there are children around or if passing is unsafe, I'll always slow down.
In general I think people should use some of the rules from driving while they are using paved trails and commuter type routes:
1. Keep to the right (or maybe it's left in other countries)
2. Look before you pass
3. Be aware of what's in front of you and behind |
| I agree, BUZZ THEM! | Snuz
Aug 16, 2003 6:51 AM | | I don't give any warning on paths either. I actually try to scare the hell out of people to teach them a lesson. Stay to one side of the path!
If you're in a group, don't think it's ok to take up the whole width of the path. What's with the people who walk down the middle of the path staggering from side to side like Otis Campbell???
I find that if I yell "on the left", a lot of people panic and move to the left!
I'm tired of dumb people. |
| Buzz them?!? Gee, you're stupid...but I agree on the leash thing | uber-stupid
Aug 16, 2003 9:15 AM | | I'm tired of dumb people too... especially cell phone users that look right at you while walking right out in your way. People that take up the whole path. Nitwits and morons. BUT DON'T BUZZ THEM.
Buzzing people, "deliberately scaring the hell out of them," and such behavior will give the rest of us a bad reputation. Yell "On YOUR left," to indicate that that's where you are, instead of "on the left," which obviosuly confuses them. Or "Passing on your left," "Coming up on your left," etc. Slow down, and drop one chainring... it's noisy enough for most of them to take notice. Whistle as you ride along. Some innocuous noise, rather than something loud and alarming. If you hate to be alarmed by a dog running across your path, I'm sure they hate to be alarmed by a charging cyclist that can do them a whole lot more injury than that dog will probably do to you. (unless it's a big attack dog)
Besides... the first thought I have when some nitwit buzzes me with the horn on their car or yelling out a window is to hope I see them in a parking lot so I can kill the lot of them. I'd hope you're not that type of person, or that you wouldn't want to be.
Even though it's marked as "bicycle path," it's for everyone. bikes, rollerbladers, people out for a stroll with friends.
Kids walking home from school even... I'd much rather have my kid on a bike path than on the street. Then again, I'd like to think that cyclists have more manners and watch out more than the drivers we all cuss out on a regular basis in here.
Their taxes pay for just as much of it as yours do, and if you're really in such a hurry, use the street. If you really, really feel that you have no other options than to use the bicycle path and you absolutely have to haul ass, try hollering out military cadence songs or something equally noisy so they'll hear you coming a long way off. Tie a tin can or two to the back of your bike. Or, just a simple bicycle bell. Use it repeatedly while coming up on them from behind. People don't have eyes in the back of their heads... but they do have ears. Don't expect em to see you coming. If they know you're there, and still decide to stay in your way, then yell. Or just go around.
As for the other poster who doesn't feel the need to honk when passing, you're right... but I'll flash headlights at a trucker to let him know when it's safe to cut in front of me, and wait for his flash if I'm passing him, or wait tilll I'm sufficiently far ahead that I know it's safe. A car is one thing... it's one person in control. A dog on a leash is a different issue... the person would need time to get the dog under control. Dogs are harder to control than automobiles.
It's basic etiquette, and right-of way rules. walkers/hikers/joggers, horse riders, then bicyclists. They've paid as much as we have to have the trail there. And we're only in the right if we're being respectful to them to begin with. Otherwise, we've no ground to stand on.
Having said all that, the folks out walking their dog should be more aware of the fact that there's traffic around them, and control their dogs accordingly. I'm sure they wouldn't give a toddler such wide range in such a situation. I don't see why they'd give it to a dog. |
| Bike path idiots, movie talkers, cell phone drivers, smokers... | kbrcmn
Aug 16, 2003 10:40 AM | | No patience for them They're the enemy and will be treated accordingly. |
| I Agree - BUZZ THEM! Would that it were that easy! | Drewdane
Aug 16, 2003 6:11 PM | | It's been my experience that punishing the clueless only serves to reinforce the clueless behavior. I'm not sure why - that just seems to be the way it is... |
| This is chronic in Japan. Nobody bothers about right of way. | Sprocketeer
Aug 16, 2003 11:54 PM | | Rarely do I buzz them, unless I can see that it's better that I don't have them turning this way and that if they're definitely engrossed in smelling the flowers on one side of the path.
If there's a dog, I whistle--since dogs are really timid here and startle really easily.
Humans only, I call out (in Japanese) "From behind!" making sure I do this at enough of a distance that they're fairly warned. Sometimes I have to do it twice. As I pass I say, "Domo, Sumimasen! (Thanks, sorry [for intruding]" and give a little head bow. The old people in particular love this, much better than a bell, and actually seem to enjoy getting out of my way--since they're particular facinated by both bicycles and foreigners, and love younger people with manners. Middle agers just move out of the way because they feel they have to.
If they don't get it--symptomatic of teenagers here--I get nasty, plow on through, calling out "Coming from behind!" as I do it (I'm from New York). Japanese high school students are the most asleep at the wheel, unaware-of-the-world-around-them people I've ever met.
(Notice the pattern of age here--elderly Japanese people are coolest.)
On the road or bike path passing other cyclists: Can you imagine someone riding along, listening to a walkman, surfing the internet on a cell phone or reading a book, and holding an umbrella all at the same time? It's like a circus act. You call out, again and again--they're totally unaware. Finally I get a chance to pass and tap them on the way saying "Hey jerk, wake up!" They ride in the dark, no lights, no reflectors, wrong side of the road, and they're still playing with the damn cell phone and wearing a walkman.
Fact: 1 out of every 100 Japanese people has been "injured" in a "reported" traffic accident.
Fact: At a typical local junior high school near me they have over 25 collisions between students on bicycles and cars every year.
Right of way? I wish someone would teach people not only what it means, but make sure they know why it's important and that it applies to everywhere people pass each other. |
| This is chronic in Japan. Nobody bothers about right of way. | roadscuzz
Aug 17, 2003 8:20 AM | | Next to the Crossword Puzzle in my local newspaper is a column titled Facts & Fancies by LM. Boyd. This came out of the 8/16/03 column, "Japanese pedestrians do not jump out of the way when a driver honks. Correspondents checked out the why of this. The general attitude among pedestrians seems to be: If the driver honks, that means he sees us, so there's no danger". |
| This is the same attitude as rednecks who buzz bikers | bhutata
Aug 17, 2003 4:57 AM | | with their pickups. And they don't particularly care whether they clip them with their rearview mirror. Grow up and be just a little responsible. |
| good point bhutata, happens quite a bit here... | jcw
Aug 17, 2003 5:52 PM | | in western Montana. Pretty much every road ride at least one jerk in a big truck buzzes me. It's always either one of 2 things: either it's a jerk who's pissed cause he might have to slow down a bit, let's you know that he doesn't appreciate your being on "his" road in a none to subtle way. Or a jerk that just has no clue that it might be unnerving to have someone blast past you 6" away at 75mph. Ah the joys of the open road. |
| Dog owner and MTB rider | EdY
Aug 15, 2003 4:34 PM | | Hey don't b!itch at the dogs for their owners inability to operate the leash (complicated piece of equipment that it is). The leashes are great to let the dog move around a little more freely. Whenever I see another person be it a walker, runner or biker (especially) I make sure the leash is retracted and locked. I haven't seen a 50 footer though, it sounds a little much in all honesty. I have to say I've never had a problem with a dog on one when I've been riding. Of course it will probably happen tomorrow. |
| Ummmm, ..... | Fuelish
Aug 15, 2003 5:11 PM | | don't blame the leash or the inventor - blame the dog owner irresponsible enough to leave too long a leash when situations might warrant a shorter leash.....You know, the whole "guns don't kill people, people kill people" argument.....it ain't the leash/inventer, it's the people wielding them....heh - by the way, as a dog owner, I choose to pass on the 'retractable" leashes....they suck out loud... |
| Ummmm, ..... | Low_bias
Aug 15, 2003 6:00 PM | | Well, one of two things could have happened here.
1) Dog owner too stupid to retract leash
2) Biker didn't let dog owner know he was approaching, or at least didn't let him know in time |
| A curse on both their houses! | Sprocketeer
Aug 15, 2003 9:52 PM | | I've had a lot of dogs and rarely have I even used a leash simply because my dogs have always had the brains--or training--to know not to go chasing cars, people, bicyclists, airplanes, UFOs, or whatever. But I've come across people using leashes easily in excess of 20 feet long--especially in Japan where the dogs are remarkably timid--made of something only a little more visible than fishing line, with them on one side of a wide pathway and the dog somewhere off on the other side usually walking around a tree making a very effective trip-wire. Because the leash is effectively invisible and the dog and it's attached human are on opposite sides, paying no attention to each other whatsoever, and particular when it's a tiny little dog--which tends to be the case--it's really easy to go flying right into the leash.
As a cyclist, I have to yield the trail to hikers, horses, and the occassional vehicle. So I have to be rather conscientious. I have to obey a right of way if for no other reason than common sense. Even boats have a right of way rule on the open sea. Why can't I expect the same thing out of people walking their dogs on a narrow trail? Do they really need to be blocking off the trail entirely for one pedestrian and an animal the size of a New York street rat?
The retractable, absurdly long, nearly invisible leash is just a bad excuse for not giving a damn about sharing public recreation spaces with other people. Sure, if you're out on a lawn, sitting down or playing fetch with your dog, feel free to use the long leash--though I think using no leash is just fine in that case as long as your dog comes when you call it. But on a trail you have to observe the right of way and that means not blocking the path.
The long, retractable leash is only fit for leashing your dog in your own yard. |
| And how is that? Did they come... | fred³
Aug 16, 2003 4:42 AM | | to your house and threaten you, or did you not understand how the product works and hurt yourself that way? |
| re: To whoever invented the retractable 50 ft. dog-leash! | Drew
Aug 16, 2003 5:13 AM | | The real issue is with local leash laws. I should be able to legally take my well trained dog into the woods leash free. If my dog does something stupid while not on a leash, I should take responsablity and be held accountable for it; this makes more sence than creating laws that restrict everyone's liberties. |
| Appealing but Ineffective Argument | DTC
Aug 16, 2003 9:37 AM | | Your argument is definitely intuitively appealing, but would lead to more problems. Like more lawsuits to have an irresponsible dog owner held accountable for when someone gets bitten. Leash laws are in fact useful because they help PREVENT alot of problems before they occur, rather than forcing people to resort to litigation AFTER the fact. Sure, it's an inconvenience to have to leash your well behaved and trained dog everytime you go out. However, the law can't rely on owners' subjective opinions of how well trained their dogs are and therefore must apply equally to all dogs. |
| Besides | meloh1
Aug 16, 2003 10:28 AM | | Even some of the most well trained, well behaved dogs have gone astray. After all, they're animals and unpredictable. Leashes not only protect others from your dog but can help protect your dog from others. I've seen a supremely well trained (100's of hours of training, 7 years old) hunting dog take off after an animal despite their owners commands AND a shock collar. The owner said he'd never done anything like that before. You can never be sure what a dog will do and that's why leash laws are adopted and are effective, if followed. |
| Yes, but no | Drew
Aug 17, 2003 5:17 AM | | First off, I am not talking about eliminating leash laws at your local city park, or sidewalk. I am talking about state forests and park areas where you would typically be miles into the woods, away from civilization, while walking your dog. Places you would ride, and likely encounter a dog on one of those 50' leashes.
Following the same logic as the above two arguments, specifically that dogs are unpredictable and requiring all dogs to be leashed all the time helps prevent any issues from occurring, I would then have to argue that all trails should be closed to mountain biking. After all, people on bikes can be unpredictable and preventing riders from accessing trails will help prevent any accidents from occurring. And this is better than holding the rider accountable for hurting someone, right?
We all assume a certain amount of risks in life, despite society's efforts to eliminate them. I could write pages on the subject, but I will drop it and leave you with these quotes:
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. " Ben Franklin
"I don't want to swim in a roped off sea" Jimmy Buffett |
| Sorry Drew, but | meloh1
Aug 17, 2003 7:15 AM | | You said "local leash laws". If this doesn't imply sidewalks and city parks I don't know what does. Most leash laws don't apply to wide open spaces like state or national forests. Not saying there might be some that have restrictions but the vast majority don't so where's the argument? When you take your dog specifically to areas where they could easily encounter problems (like a mountain bike trail) you're asking for trouble. Insofar as leash laws prevent problems, they're a good thing. Ever hear "an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure"? Don't know who said it but it really makes no difference when quoting platitudes. It's really not about freedom, it's about common sense and the persistent lack thereof. |
| What's a "Mountain Bike Trail?" | næstep
Aug 17, 2003 8:17 AM | | Sure, I agree if we're talking about going to the local races and letting your dog off-leash alongside the DH course that'd be just plain dumb.
But around these parts, they're called "multi-use trails" for a reason. Mountain bikers share these trails with hikers, XC runners, joggers, equestrians, dog walkers, and families looking for a picnic spot.
That dog could just as easily be someone's three-year-old scampering across the trail, or a group of retirees out for a late-afternoon stroll. And while that doesn't absolve dog owners from using common sense, or from parents keeping a close check on their kids, it does mean bikers don't have the complete freedom to do as we please. We can be smart about it and pick less populated areas to ride, but our responsibility remains.
As bicycle riders, we really do pack the biggest punch due to our speed and stealth, and it's out burden (and in our best interest) to prevent incidents from occurring in the first place.
To do otherwise is akin to shouting, "I'M NOT SHARING ANYMORE!" The ounce of prevention in this case would be land managers and parks districts throwing our asses off the hill and wiping their hands clean of any altercations we're involved in.
næstep |
| Well said! | Drew
Aug 17, 2003 9:07 AM | | Amen,
The onus is on us, the riders, to be responsible. I have repeatedly seen posts on this board that dogs should not be allowed on mountain bike trails" on or off leash. What hypocritical crap this is. If you're riding too fast and run into a 50' dog leash, guess what, it's your fault. Pick yourself up, apologize profusely to the dog and its owner, and be thankful you are allowed to ride on that multi use trail at all. And don't do it again, because the next time it could be someone's child. If you want to keep dogs and hikers off a trail so you can ride it like a madman, go out and buy yourself a couple thousand acres and be done with it.
meloh1, there are many areas in this country where vast areas of woods have leash laws. It depends on where you live. I see it more of this on the West Coast than where I currently live on the East Coast.
I think all this rainy East Coast weather is making me cranky. |
| I don't buy it | meloh1
Aug 17, 2003 9:41 AM | | Sure, we've got a responsibility to act responsibly but that doesn't absolve other trail users. Even if I'm riding responsibly a dog (on a long leash or off leash) can easily cause an accident. They just don't mix with bikes and horses without being under the direct control of the owner. I've been a dog owner all my life. Currently own two labs. I train dogs for hunting and field trials. Some good grouse hunting is around one of my favorite trails (in fact it's been improved by the local Ruffed Grouse Society) but I wouldn't think of hunting there both because of my dogs and my gun. That's also being responsible. |
| I've seen far more out-of-control bikers than dogs... | næstep
Aug 17, 2003 12:02 PM | | I hike many of the trails that I ride. Both biking and on foot, I have witnessed countless bikers ignorantly putting others at risk and needlessly frightening horses and hikers, but have rarely seen dogs which I would consider to be out-of-control (in more cases making more of a nuisance of themselves than actually threatening or frightening anyone).
Just like we're debating whether dogs should be kept on leash, there are other trail groups actively debating how to effectively "leash" bikes on the trails, be it through closed single-track, radar-enforced speed limits, or all-out banishment. They view us the same way you view dogs: Out of control, unpredictable, a danger to other trail users.
If mountain bikers complain that dogs present a "threat" to their riding, I'm certain a choice between off-leash dogs versus mountain bikes is a one-sided decision as far as the public and most trail users are concerned.
næstep |
| I gave it a shot! You were too fast. Dang! nm | Jaybo
Aug 16, 2003 2:16 PM | | nm |
| re: To whoever invented the retractable 50 ft. dog-leash! | Low_bias
Aug 16, 2003 2:25 PM | | Cars, you can generally hear approaching, and on most roads they are common. On a rural bike path I used to walk my bike on, I often never encountered anyone, though I always kept an eye out. Sometimes a fast biker would approach, and neither me or my dog would know they were there until they were right on us. This would often scare the hell out of both me and the dog. A nice road bike is damn near silent- especially if it is going fast and there is a slight headwind.
You need to let people know you are coming. Get a bell- that is what they are for. Don't say "on the left" and get pissed at people. They aren't cyclist or track runners. They don't know if you are making a statement or giving a command. I usually try to make some noise while I'm quite a ways off, then when I get closer I say something like "coming up on your left", and then I'll usually say "hi doggy" or "good dog" when I pass. Dogs act on instinct, and if something approaches fast and silent without any kind of greeting, they aren't sure if they are under attack or what!
grow up |
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