|   4 vs 5 bolt cranks | deller
Aug 15, 2003 6:37 PM | | It looks like 4 bolts are gaining popularity, what is the benefit? Just a little less weight with a little more flex? I'm a big guy (200#s), should I stick with a 5 bolt crank set? |
| No reason really. | Tscheezy
Aug 15, 2003 10:47 PM | | 5 arm spiders may support the rings more but unless you bash the rings, either will hold up fine. Shimano was leading the charge with 4 bolts and that is why they became more popular. They have a larger bolt circle diameter so you cannot put as small a ring on them which is fine with 9 speed but not as good with 8.
I think availability of rings would be the biggest consideration in choosing a type, and there are a few more 4 bolt rings out there. Not a big deal as I have both and can find rings for both. Just more stupid incompatability issues in an industry which cannot agree on anything for long.
tscheezy |
| Great reason #1: Shimano cut their chainring bolt costs by 20%! | Blacksheep
Aug 15, 2003 11:42 PM | | Plus they forced everyone to "upgrade" to the new stuff. Nice. |
| Conspiracy! Conspiracy! The big bad wolf has... | fred³
Aug 16, 2003 4:35 AM | | entered the building!
Without their market input you'd be paying thousands more for a less reliable bike. So quit yer whining.
Forced to upgrade? What'd they hold a nine speed cassette to your head and say "buy this now or we'll take yer first born?". The fact is you can still buy all the 8 speed stuff your heart desires, but if you don't get off yer fat lazy butt you won't find it.
What would you crying if SRAM had first taken the market by storm? Oh yeah. You'd be whining about them...some folks just have to complain about something. Me? I'm complaining about the complainers. |
| easy fred | Magnet
Aug 16, 2003 5:59 AM | | Most people have SHiitmano on their bikes (I have a lot) and their stuff is great and reliable, but if Sram and some other smaller companies weren't offering some competition, SHiitmano would be charging an arm and a leg more. Let's not even talk about the "reliabilty" issue. The new SHiitmano stuff is crap compared to their older 8 speed stuff. How many SHiitmano chains do I have to break or how many XT rear cassettes do I need to bend before I wake up and go back to 8 speed.
on a different note, remember when SHiitmano was selling products at a loss to under-sell the competition and drive them out of business, then they made the money back by over-charging on products that other companies didn't make. Now that's what I remember about Shiitmano, good, honest, business practices (oh yeah and this crappy 9 speed XT drivetrain on my bike). |
| Fred's got a completely valid argument... | næstep
Aug 16, 2003 6:34 AM | | *Supposing* Shimano didn't have any competition? What's that got to do with anything? If Shimano (1) charged an arm and a leg, or (2) didn't innovate, they'd be just another component manufacturer.
Heck, you could argue that if Sram didn't have Shimano to compete with, they'd still be offering the same crappy X-Ray and SRT400 twist shifters of old.
My Shimano 9 speed stuff has been perfectly reliable. The only exception is the chains, but for me that wasn't a Shimano issue: I broke too many 8 speed Shimano chains and switched to Sram before adopting any 9 speed gear.
8 speed stuff is still available if you want it, so don't hold your breath in protest. We'll see 10 speed before Shimano drops 9 speed.
I don't remember the under-selling incident you mention, but I do remember back in 1990 (give or take a couple years) when Shimano strongarmed bike companies into specing complete Shimano groups by offering all or nothing. Call it what you will (I call it stupid business), but I see just as many bike now with Avid or Hayes brakes, Truvative or RaceFace cranks and bottom brackets, Sram or KMC chains, and it seems Shimano has completely walked away from the seatposts and headsets they used to put their name on.
And as a consumer I can still find an occasional LX crankset in the $40 to 50 range and an XTR derailleur in the $80 to 90 range without buying a whole box of parts.
But the fact remains, competition is alive and well. You could easily build a Shimano-free bike today without cutting any corners.
næstep |
| ha ha | celly
Aug 16, 2003 9:01 AM | | fred continues to amaze.
"Still buy all the 8 speed your heart desires".
It's not as easy as you'd think. Then again, you'd know that if you actually rode enough to wear out parts. I've got a stock of some XTR and XT parts in 8 speed, but you have to scour Ebay for them. I deal with very large bike shops here in town, and the only 8 speed they tend to carry is lower end stuff (little XT/XTR), if they have it at all. You really should speak from experience, and not all the dated hearsay you like to spew.
"lazy"
How many miles have you ridden in the past week/month/year? I'm told you could use more.
"whining/complaining"
Good one, fred. Why don't you assume one of your famous alternative handles now and do just that about me? Right, you always post under just one handle. Uh huh.
I'll give you one thing. You do bring entertainment value to this site. Too bad we're not laughing WITH you. |
| Are you saying... | næstep
Aug 16, 2003 9:19 AM | | ...that the 8 speed Sram & Shimano XT cassettes & shifters listed by QBP aren't actually available? (I'm gunuinely asking I'm only assume their catalog is up-to-date.)
Why continue to patronize Shimano if you're so fed up with them?
næstep |
| Who said I'm fed up with Shimano? | celly
Aug 16, 2003 10:08 AM | | Did I miss something?
I like Shimano drivetrains (shifters/cassette/derailleurs) a lot. I have three bikes (one with XTR 9, One with XTR 8 and one with XT 8). I'm annoyed with what Shimano did to the new XTR stuff, but I'm still a fan of how the old stuff performs. I may have to go to SRAM if Shimano continues along their trend of completely redesigning everything and going away from standards.
I'm in Canada. Shops don't order from QBP (generally speaking, I know of a few that do once in a while). I'm sure they could easily get 8 speed as easy as you can in the US, but by special order. If I blow out a derailleur, I want to be able to go to a shop and pick one up in the shop. One shop in town carries a ton of Shimano and have probably the best retail shop pricing in the country, but ask for 8 speed and you'll get a blank stare. Yeah, they can probably get it for you, but they're not stocking a lot of it. To me, that means it's not "readly available", like fred seemed to imply.
Try and find an XTR 8 speed Rapid Fire set, and you'll see what I mean. XT seems to be common (I do see them in shops now and again), but XTR is rare as the dodo. I paid a hefty premium on Ebay a year or so ago to get a couple of sets. One is on one of my hardtails, and the other is a reserve set. |
| p.s. | celly
Aug 16, 2003 12:02 PM | | I was just at one of those big LBS' I mentioned, totally unrelated. I was waiting to get some help in service department when a guy came up looking for an 8 speed cassette. All LBS had was 11-30, XT. Not a bad unit if that's the range you're looking for. This cassette is very readily available (the even sell it at MEC, the Canuck version of REI). The guy wanted an XTR 12-32. That blank stare I told you about surfaced on the service guy's face.
Funny timing for that encounter. |
| Conspiracy! Conspiracy! The big bad wolf has... | Blacksheep
Aug 16, 2003 11:05 AM | | Hey, if you consider 4 arm cranks and skinny little chains to be an innovation, good for you. Here in the real, muddy world, there are singlespeeders and also people running 8 speed to avoid Shimano's "innovations." In fact, did you ever notice that the singlespeed phenomenon didn't really exist until Shimano came up with their brilliant 9 speed drivetrain? Hmmmmm. As for finding 8 speed stuff for myself, I find it for my new DH bike, but I got suckered into 9sp XTR for my XC bike back in '99 and I'm stuck with it. I don't believe in conspiracies (Shimano didn't conspire with anyone), but Shimano has done some stupid things that they would not have gotten away with had they not eliminated their financially weak competition. Suntour XC Pro parts still fetch full retail price or higher, so don't try to tell me it sucked. |
| Good read.....(nm) | Ebo
Aug 16, 2003 7:54 PM | | |
| 8 speed sucks, give me back 7 speed. | Ratt
Aug 16, 2003 4:32 PM | | I want my rear wheel dish to be straight again. |
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