|   Ellsworth issues and santa cruz | James Young
Oct 20, 2003 11:50 PM | | I was reading the item on ellsworth truth and someone mentioned warranty problems and design issues, along with general ellsworth bashing. Please could you elaborate.
I am a uk rider and would not have easy access to test bikes etc. And as in general american 'prestige' bikes like the santa cruz and the ellsworth arrive here in such small numbers it is difficult to find out what company service is really like or indeed any design issues that have arisen. I supose an additional problem is the cost as i believe santa cruz (or their importers) set the exchange rate of $1 = £1, so i will have to pay about 60% more than the us riders for the same product.
If you have any comments about either ellsworth or santa cruz it would be greatly appreciated. |
| re: Ellsworth issues and santa cruz | Dirthead
Oct 21, 2003 3:50 AM | | I am an happy Ellsworth Truth owner. My current ride is a 2003 model, but I have also had a 1999 model. The truth is a lightweight XC machine. If it is used for that purpose, it is a great bike. If a person buys the truth, and uses it as a freeride bike, breakage problems will happen. Ellsworth has taken a huge amount of bashing on this board, some deserved, some not. Someone paying a premium for a frame like a Truth, you would expect it to never break, and if it does, to be replaced immediately, for free. There have been mixed reports of Ellsworth's customer service, some getting a replacement with no problem, others having to pay a "replacement fee". I have never had a problem with either Truth that I owned. The design has been refined over the years, and the breakage problem with the seattube has become less and less frequent. Yes, some still break, but if you use it as a XC bike only, the chances of that are very slim. If you do 3'-4' drops with it, especially if you are a heavier rider, watch out. The 2004 model has been redesigned even further, with a longer stroke rear shock. I would imagine a lot of the breakage problems occurred when the shorter stroke shock on 2003 and earlier frames bottomed out.
If you are worried about Ellsworth, get a Santa Cruz. They are less expensive and are great bikes. The Blur is awesome. It's ride will be a little different than a Truth, but either bike is going to be great. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Santa Cruz offers a 1 year warranty on their bikes, and after that initial year, even if you run over it with your car, they will replace it for a small fee (~$250 or so).
Most people on this board either love or hate Ellsworth. Yeah they have had some breakage problems in the past with the Truth. Hopefully the newest design with longer stroke shock will finally eliminate that issue. Even if it does, some will still bash them. I have not had a problem with my Truths at all. They ride great, look great, and make me faster than my friends who all ride hardtails. Santa Cruz makes a great bike as well. You can't go wrong with either one, but if I had it all to do over again, I would probably try a Santa Cruz, just for the VPP suspension, and I would take a trip to Moab with the money I saved over the Truth. |
| re: Ellsworth issues and santa cruz | lamar
Oct 21, 2003 4:32 AM | | SantaCruz has a two year warranty. |
| Verrry happy with my ID | Jimbeau
Oct 21, 2003 5:21 AM | | Greetings,
I cannot give an honest "review" or make comments about the TRUTH; albeit, I can about Ellsworth's customer service. Currently, I ride a '03 Ellsworth ID. WOW! What a bike!! While I've experienced zero concerns with the frame/bike, Ellsworth has shown their concern for my satisfaction....e-mails, snail mail and phone calls -- yep, a real live person CALLED ME. All she wanted was to ensure my satisfaction (we talked about ME, MY rides, MY bike and MY interests -- I was impressed). I've yet to speak with another Ellsworth owner who is dissatisfied...with their bike and/or customer service. I suggest you make contact with Ellsworth...get a feel for them and their people. No matter you decision, I hope it exceeds your expectations. Take care.
Ride hard, ride fast, ride safe; for it is far better to ride than to recover. |
| Got products from both manufacturers | TruckeeLocal
Oct 21, 2003 6:50 AM | | My wife has got a Santa Cruz Juliana SuperLight, and I've got an Ellsworth Id. When I bought both bikes I simply didn't care about the warranty. In my 40 years of riding I have NEVER had occasion to return any cycling related product, but have used technical support from time to time. My attitude is that frames are going to fail for one of these reasons ...
1. Manufacturing defect, in which case the warranty applies
2. Secondary product failure, like a shock blowing out
3. User error, like taking a 4' drop on a lightweight XC machine
4. Long term fatigue (happened to me once on an old CF frame)
From my perspective only the first is the responsibility of the manufacturer and the problem tends to occur soon in the life of the bike when any reputable company will honor the warranty. Ellsworth seems to cover all the above. By the way I, like the previous poster, received a call from Ellsworth checking my satisfaction and welcoming me to the Ellsworth family. Nothing from Santa Cruz. My wife is crushed - she now wants a blue Truth ! |
| Read the warranty, read the boards more closely. | Pete.
Oct 21, 2003 7:38 AM | | "1. Manufacturing defect, in which case the warranty applies "
There are numerous pictures and stories of Truths that failed due to a manufacturing defect (snapped just above the BB on the seat tube) yet people had to pay to "upgrade" to a newer Truth because Ellsworth has changed the construction of the Truth (after realizing they had a bad design due to their customers breaking bikes).
This is not an "abuse" situation, it occurs due to a stress riser that is created due to the design of the bike.
Read the Ellsworth warranty very, very carefully before making a purchase decision. |
| Did you read my post ? | TruckeeLocal
Oct 21, 2003 9:01 AM | | The bit that says that I didn't care about the warranty based on my experience that I've never exercised a warranty on bike related gear ? Maybe I'm stupid, or lucky. And it's a bit late for me to read the warranty "very, very carefully".
And you do realize that if you buy a new frame it's extremely likely it's the current model. Furthermore it's likely that if there's something wrong that wrongness is going to exhibit itself very early on in which case the replacement will be a straight swop. 2 years down the road may be cause for an upgrade, with the related up-charge. Thanks Ellsworth for making this option available. For the life of the original owner (and Ellsworth as a company). And it's cool, from my perspective not yours, that Ellsworth refines its design based on real-world experience. |
| Yes I did. | Pete.
Oct 21, 2003 9:51 AM | | In fact I read the part where you naively wrote:
"Manufacturing defect, in which case the warranty applies"
Hence my reply.
"Furthermore it's likely that if there's something wrong that wrongness is going to exhibit itself very early on in which case the replacement will be a straight swop."
Did you read my post? The failures on the '01 Truths don't neccesarily manifest themselves early on, due to the nature of the defective design.
Again, read the boards more carefully and you'll understand that your assumption is off base with regards to the Truth.
"Thanks Ellsworth for making this option available. For the life of the original owner (and Ellsworth as a company)."
LOL. Yeah, a company that heavily markets a "lifetime warranty" and changes it's definition of what a "Truth" is every year so they can charge for an "upgrade."
Very cool indeed!
p.s. I think it would be very cool for Ellsworth to redefine their designs based upon real world experience but I think that real world experience and testing should come before the bike is released, not by using customers as guinea pigs and then charging them for the R&D by making them pay to replace bikes that were defective from the start. |
| Very happy with my ID | msylvan
Oct 21, 2003 9:02 AM | | Me too, but I have not required any kind of customer service. Note that I chose the ID because it is rated for a 150mm fork, and comes with a coil Romic shock, unlike the Truth which is rated for a 100mm fork and uses an air shock.
I wanted it to be a little tougher.
Upsides? Light, good riding, good looking, and tough enough for 1-2 meter drops. My bike is 32 pounds with a Sherman Fork and Mavic D3.1 Rims.
Downsides? Rear swing arm is too narrow (forget 2.5 tires), and the bottom bracket is 14 inches high (don't know what that is in millimeters). |
| Since you've had zero concerns with the frame/bike... | Nat
Oct 21, 2003 10:30 AM | | you haven't really put Ellsworth's customer service to the test yet hey? |
| I think it depends a little on your philosophy | Tscheezy
Oct 21, 2003 9:20 AM | | Are you buying the bike simply for the bike and its performance, or do you purchase something as a statement of support to the company and its corporate philosophy (e.g., buying from a "green" company because you support environmental protection, etc)?
The reason why I ask is because many of the bikes themselves are extremely good performers, and assuming they hold together (I really don't know if past breakage or customer service is relevant to the latest models), you would certainly like the ride. That is the product performance aspect. On the corporate philosophy front, I personally would never give Tony a single penny of my money because I think he is a slimy crook based on recent evidence. This opinion is based on the fact that he lied to us and he was caught at it.
This is simply my opinion: nice bikes, lousy individual. Other people look only at the bike and how it is treating them, and that is totally their right. I like to think my money supports someone I can respect.
Bummer that they cost so much over there. With the current airfares you could come over here on vacation, buy the bike here, and still save money in the end!
Have fun shopping,
tscheezy |
| I think it depends a little on your philosophy | southbeachsmoothie
Oct 21, 2003 10:51 AM | | Hey, I'm sorry I missed the articles you linked to earlier this year. Where Tony says that "bike building in not lucrative"... horse SH*T!!!! If its so unlucrative, why continue to do something that doesn't make money and how the hell is he able to build a new $5 mil. dollar home in So Cal? Any answers to that Mr. Ellsworth?
As far as the bikes are concerned, I have a Truth and love it. But I was warned by the LBS where I bought it that there would be warranty issues. The tubing is very, very thin. It gets scuffs and dings relatively easily. Worse comes to worse I have a friend that owns a machine shop. He told he came copy the frame to a " T " using thicker tubing in the event it breaks. It would cost me less than the replacement from Ellsworth. There alot of Blurs being riden down here as of late. I've seen probably 20 - 30 different riders. They all love thier bikes. I have only seen one other Truth. That guy told me that he liked his bike and its performance but preferred the Mantra he sold to buy the Truth. That's my 2 cents...does that equal a shilling or a quid? lol ... Jordan |
| Here's my philosophy | Steve from JH
Oct 21, 2003 12:36 PM | | As I think you know I have a Truth. It's the '01 large model that's been breaking down near the front derailer. I keep looking for cracks down there and of course worry that when it breaks it will be when I'm as far off into the woods as I ever get. Because of my bad knees I'll have a very unpleasant walk out.
I had some dealings with Tony E. some years ago over the phone and by e-mail. I found him to be, let's say, undependable. If my bike breaks I'd rather replace it with a 5-Spot, since I think the 5-Spot has every thing going for it that the Ellsworth bikes do, plus nobody has any thing bad to say about Turner or his company.
But I'm sure Ellsworth would offer me a new frame if my old one breaks. That would mean buying a new longer stroke shock and a rocker arm. The shock would be about $350. I don't know what the rocker arm would be but I'm sure it would be too much. Nevertheless the total price for essentially a new '04 Truth would be a lot less than for the Turner. It would be nice to stand on principle and melt down the replacement frame and display photos of the event on MTBR. But I'd probably just take the new bike and ride it. |
| Buy the Truth | rick r
Oct 21, 2003 9:25 AM | | The Truth rides better than the Blur and you get a lifetime warranty on the Truth. My 01' Truth broke at the seatpost(same spot as others) and E. replaced it without question, they redesigned the seatpost/pivot area in 02' and I have not heard of any breaks since then. The frame can handle a lot of abuse, I weigh 195 and do a lot of rough trailriding and the bike has been great! |
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