|   have yet to see a single MTB patroller in these parts--scam? | club
Sep 30, 2003 4:11 PM | | you may recall I was gonna join the Durango mtb patrol last spring, but ended up not because I could not afford the hefty membership fee and equipment costs (and my equipment was more complete than what they were offering). Well 6 months of daily riding later, I still have yet to see a single patroller on the trails, at the races (where it was said they would be providing support) or even at last weekend's bikes and brew bash in downtown Durango -- geez if they were serious you'd think they'd make a token appearance, what with a couple thousand riders all milling about in a small area downtown. Makes me wonder if starting the thing was just a scam for the organizer to pocket the thousands of dollars in donations he said he had gotten for the organization. Might contact Koobi saddles, see if they have gotten any feedback from the $5k they allegedly kicked in.
Does anyone higher up the chain than the individual club ever audit or oversee what happens to all that free money? Is the organizer upgrading his bike with it, or did he buy back the bass boat he said he sold to buy his bike? In 12 years of almost daily rides here I have yet to come across anyone on the trails that required anything more than a pump or a chain tool, and I'm starting to wonder if all that donation money, $7,000 if I recall, is going to good use. The guy who organized the club here didn't even know the names of the local trails when he spoke to us last spring, that's a bad sign coming from someone who's supposed to be giving directions and advise out on the trails. I heard he went on a ride with some friends and got dropped before they hit the trailhead, then threw a major hissy-fit over it. If anything, sounds like I might someday be rescuing him, not the other way around. |
| Have you seen any flaming trolls? | Ken in KC.
Oct 2, 2003 10:48 AM | | Do you have anything constructive to contribute? Most of your concerns were addressed in your first thread. Perhaps you should reread it: club "costs too much to "volunteer" for MTB Patrol" 6/11/03 5:41pm
I can't comment on the specific fund raisers for the Durango patrol, but in general, it takes a considerable amount of money to keep the local patrols equipped with supplies and training.
The next time you ride in Fruita, look up the patrol out there. I'm sure you'll be impressed with their professionalism, trail knowledge, bike handling skills and overall fitness. In other words, rather than bitching about your local patrol, how about joining, making a difference, and working toward making the patrol a stronger organization?
Unless you are involved and a member, it's really none of your business how the patrol chooses to use their money. It is the patrol's and the sponsor's business.
Ken |
| and 3 weeks later, still no sighting. took the $ and split? | club
Oct 19, 2003 2:41 PM | | rode singletrack every single day since the last posting 3 weeks ago. nada, no patrollers out there. asked about 6 riding buds if they have ever seen one. nope. no sightings, through the organizer, the guy in charge of the $7k did show up at the Trails 2000 picnic wearing a patroller t-shirt to drink the free beer. somebody provide evidence this is not a scam to control the donated funds for personal gain, and I'll reconsider my opinion. till them I am very suspicious...If there is truly a group of patrollers out there riding various trails on a daily basis, you would think they would occasionally be spotted on the trails, but that seems not to be happening. |
| Again, trolling... | Ken in KC.
Oct 20, 2003 7:59 AM | | Why don't you get involved, as opposed to throwing stones regarding your local patrol group on an international list?
You seem interested in stirring the shit, but your not willing to contact the local patrol. Not all patrols cover their local trails every day. They don't have the resources to do that. It seems that many people are more interested in managing their patrols from outside the patrol organization, vs. becoming involved.
Let me spell this out for you: You're simply moaning and bitching on this list, vs. working with the local patrol to either:
- Determine the how/where/why of their specific organization.
- Improve the proceedures and protocols of the local patrol.
Either get involved and make a difference, or shut up and go away.
Bitching about the guy showing up to drink free beer is a classic! The beer (free by definition) was limited to people that you approve of? Nice.
Ken |
| Dear Ken | club
Oct 20, 2003 4:39 PM | | my opinion is as valid as anyone else's, and last time I checked, Herr Bush hadn't yet taken away my right to express it, here, or elsewhere. Shut up? I'm glad my posts bug you. Bite me. |
| It's not your posts that bug me... | Ken in KC.
Oct 21, 2003 10:42 AM | | It's the lack of original content they contain.
You bitch and moan about an organization that someone else is working on, yet you refuse to get involved.
You cry about the cost of joining the organization, yet you still don't get involved when the cost is reduced specifically for you.
You question someone's honesty and even indicate that they are stealing money, yet you won't attend a meeting to find out specifically where the money is and how it is earmarked. That smacks of slander.
What you're doing is cowardly and counter-productive. You're not helping, you're not getting involved, you're lobbing public accusations that are unfounded. It's easy to take your approach. It's far harder to actually get involved and make a difference.
I never suggested that you couldn't state your opinion. That's your right. It doesn't mean that your opinion is correct or valid. From a professionalism standpoint, you don't have the right to publicly accuse someone of stealing, and then pass that off as your opinion.
I think you're not only way off base, but that you're unprofessional approach is uncalled for. If you have questions regarding your local mountain bike patrol, then join and find out what's going on. Once you are involved, then your opinion will be validated or disproven. Then, you'll be credible. Until then, you're bitching and whining.
"Shut up" & "Bite me"? That's your response to my critisism of your handling of your repeat threads? Classy touch. Very nice indeed.
Ken |
| uh, Ken dear, you're the one that said "shut up" nm | club
Oct 21, 2003 3:37 PM | | |
| Yes, I did. Now, quit ducking the issue... | Ken in KC.
Oct 22, 2003 5:54 AM | | Actually, what I suggested was that you either take actions to get involved or shut up and go away. You're taking a local concern and bitching about it on a national level by crying, bitching and potentially slandering an individual who is volunteering their own time and effort to an organization.
Your tact and approach is unprofessional and counter-productive. So, either get involved with your local patrol and help them turn it in to a better organization through your efforts (at which point, you'll be able to help direct where and how donation money is spent), or shut up and quit with the smear campaign.
Ken |
| Yes, I did. Now, quit ducking the issue... | Dave in Pa.
Oct 22, 2003 6:34 AM | | hi ken,you seem well informed on the subject and a real advocate of patrols. my question is are they a real asset and cost effective. the one thing that club said that i can relate to is that in all my years of riding i have yet to run across someone in dire straights. i have thought about a patrol in this area but not sure it's needed or if our club could man it or afford to train and equip it. the riding community is still fairly small in this area.please give me your thoughts on the subject Dave |
| My thoughts... | Ken in KC.
Oct 22, 2003 9:09 AM | | I am an advocate of mountain bike patrols. I feel that in many cases, they provide a tangible benefit to mountain bike advocacy as a whole.
Experienced mountain bikers may not ever require the services of a patroller. Experienced mountain bikers also ride within their limits, know how to crash and are self-sufficient.
Whether or not establishing a patrol in a specific geographic areas makes sense or not, really depends upon the specific area. Patrols make sense in the following cases (Please note that any time I make statements in this thread that are blanket, they are my opinion.):
Destination Locations
Areas like Moab and Fruita see a considerable amount of mountain biking tourists due to their location, amount of trails and varying trail difficulty. Often times this includes riders and hikers who are in over their experience level, or don't appreciate the seriousness of making poor decisions in the backcountry.
Mountain bike patrols in these locations are beneficial because:
- Patrollers are local riders who know the trails and can offer guidance and assistance to visiting riders.
- Patrollers assist in Search and Rescue situations to try and locate lost trail users.
- Patrollers can provide medical assistance to trail users who require it. Sometimes this can be nothing more than handing out sunscreen. Other times, it can be airlifting someone off a trail.
- Patrollers can provide mechanical assistance to riders who may be broken down without the proper tools or supplies to fix their bikes.
Pay to Play Areas
Winter Park, Whistler, etc. are examples where they charge people to use the lifts for access. It makes sense to have a patrol presence in these areas because of the varied skill and fitness levels of the riders, as well as the reasons I've mentioned above. These areas are also what I would consider destination trails.
Local Trails
Unless you're fortunate enough to live in a destination area, this is the area that most of us fall within. Local trails and areas may benefit from a patrol for the reasons listed above, as well as:
- Politics and mountain bike access. In many cases, establishing a patrol for local trails can improve or ensure access. Presenting a "ski patrol on bikes" concept or plan to a local land mangers and municipalities can lead to trails being opened up to mountain bikes because the land manager sees a tangible benefit to having bikes (and patrollers specifically) on the trails.
- Public Relations. Special events, festivals, fun runs, mountain bike festivals, etc. are also areas where a patrol can be a benefit. Local mountain bike festivals usually mean that people dust off their Huffy's once a year and ride on the trails. This usually leads to flats, mechanicals and injuries. Fun runs, and local non-mountain biking events are fantastic PR opportunities for mountain biking. By helping organizers or municipalities outside of the mountain biking world, the patrol can raise awareness of the benefits of mountain biking, thus helping to procure access. For example: The Midwest Mountain Bike Patrol volunteers their time each year to a neighborhood Halloween trick -or- treat event in downtown Kansas City, Missouri. They help kids across busy streets, help protect them and provide augment the KCMO police department. By providing a direct and tangible benefit to the city, it increases mountain biker's clout within the government.
- Local races. When we race, we push ourselves. When we push ourselves, we make mistakes. This can lead to injuries. By having a patrol presence at local races, a race promoter can help ensure the proper treatment of injured riders. When (not if) racers suffer head injuries, their judgment is impaired. By having a trained patroller present who is capable of providing emergency care, it can prevent more serious injuries or exacerbating an already bad situation.
Does a Patrol make sense for your area?
I don't know. It really does depend on the area and the land managers, etc.
Patrol Costs
Except in pay for play areas, the patrols are mostly all volunteers. The burden for outfitting a patroller falls on the patrol organization and the individual patrollers. The way each patrol organization is structured is based on their specific situation.
In the case of the MMBP, the initial cost to join the patrol is $90 per individual. While that seems like a lot of coin, we do our level best to justify this cost and ease the financial burden for the volunteer. In return for the $90 a patroller receives:
- Initial training
- Medical training and certification
- Patrol Jersey
- Patrol discounts
- Some gear (when we can afford it)
- IMBA Membership
- National Mountain Bike Patrol membership
- Earth Riders Mountain Bike Club membership
When it all boils down, the MMBP provides over $200 worth of products and training for the $90 initial cost. Is that worth it? That's an individual choice. I can tell you that one of the worst feelings I've experienced is seeing another person hurt, and not knowing what to do or being afraid to act for fear of making the situation worse. The medical training alone is worth the $90 to me.
In addition to the initial expense, the following are items that are required specific to the patrol:
- Medical or first aid kit.
- Camelback or other pack.
- Mini-pump
- Tools or mini-tool
- Patch kit/tubes
We try to offset these costs by providing significant discounts on purchased items and by re-supplying medical kits at events. We aren't always able to do it, but we try.
The MMBP is run like a business. We solicit sponsorships and provide a tangible return to our sponsors in some way or another. In addition, we always strive to provide the individual patrollers with enough benefits to make volunteering worth their while through special offers, discounts, etc.
Is joining the patrol expensive? It is to me. Is joining the patrol worth the cost? That is a personal choice. To me, it is. On the other hand, I understand if you decide it isn't.
Medical Situations
Keep in mind that I've been patrolling for a while, so I've seen medical situations simply as a result of putting myself in a position to see them. For example, I rarely see medical emergencies arise on group rides with my friends. Then again, I mostly ride with experienced riders. It does happen though. The following are examples of medical situations with which I've dealt:
- Core Sample of an Upper Thigh
While riding with a group of friends at the Fruita Fat Tire Festival (Fruita, CO), I assisted a local National Mountain Bike Patrol member treat a rider who decided she could ride the connector trail between Mary's and Horsethief. This is a tough trail with numerous drops of 3+' and transitions of about 1.5 bike lengths between drops.
The rider rode off a drop, and landed wheel first in sand. Her bars turned, and hit her upper right thigh. Her bars didn't have bar end caps, and the handle bar cored a perfectly round 3/4" deep sample of her thigh.
Broken Collar Bones/Dislocated Shoulders (too numerous to count, but at least 7)
On one of our local trails, there is a section of trail named Collar Bone Hill. Before permanently closing this section of trail, races were routed through here. We permanently placed our most experienced medical team at this location, due to the number of injuries caused by this section of trail.
Concussions
Numerous. The worst was the Worlds in Vail. A British pro downhiller was practicing her run. There was a huge (for me) gap jump of 20' or so that many of the riders were rolling. This rider went for it and missed. Her back tire caught the front end of the backside of the gap. Her suspension compressed, and then decompressed, launching her OTB. Her bike flew about 100', her shoes were knocked off, and she stacked harder than I've ever seen anyone stack before. She looked like a rag doll flopping down the trail. I jumped out of the way to avoid her bike, and was actually hit by one of her shoes. She was knocked out cold, and had blood running out of her nose.
We treated her as if she had a broken back or neck, since she was out cold. When she came around and as we were transporting her to the hospital, she indicated that if she passed out again, she wanted the ER docs to know that the fracture of her C7 vertebrae was preexisting.
Another really bad concussion that I've treated was Nonny from MTBR. He was out to the point that his tongue relaxed and slid partially down his throat, blocking his airway.
Broken Ankle
This wasn't mountain biking, but my medical training from the patrol allowed me to treat my daughter when her ankle was shattered while riding her road bike. Basically, her foot was separated from her leg and the only thing holding it on was skin and tendons.
Concluding the medical stuff
I've treated many more people than what I've listed. I'm not bragging, but pointing out that being able to assist another human being who is injured and requires assistance is extremely rewarding. Conversely, he feeling of helplessness of not knowing what to do to help someone is one of the worst feelings I've ever experienced.
Conclusion
I don't know if I've answered your questions specifically enough. Hopefully I have. Does starting or joining a patrol make sense for you and your organization? That's really up to you and based on your region.
I personally feel that there aren't many (if any) areas that wouldn't benefit from a patrol in some way shape or form. Patrols are extremely effective tools for promoting advocacy and increasing access. And that's really what the point of this board is, right?
Let me know if you have any addition questions. Sorry for the novel.
Ken |
| back to my original question: where's the money going? | club
Oct 22, 2003 10:59 AM | | if the patrollers are paying $90 out of pocket, and the patrol org. is furnishing $200 in goods for this (although I don't consider memberships, future discounts, or training as "goods") then what is my local patrol group, or more precisely, the head organizer who has his hands on the group goodie bag, going to spend $7,000 on? That was my original point, not that there shouldn't be patrols, hey I know patrollers in Moab that save lives weekly, although personally, many of the idiots they rescue don't deserve to live to breed. My original point, or question, was, and still is, who oversees, audits, governs, whatever, what this one guy does with the $7,000 he's basically given? You would think $7,000 worth of anything would buy some public exposure, but like I said, other than one guy being spotted one time in a patrol t-shirt quaffing free beer, no one around here that I know -- and I get around -- has seen a patroller, not on the trails, not at the races, not at the huge downtown bike fest we just had, nowhere. You would think the guy would have spent some of his $7,000 on setting up a booth, hand out some literature, have his patrollers mill around in their flashy jerseys, etc. Wouldn't you take advantage of a captive bike-friendy audience of thousands in your home town to do something like that? Me too. But that didn't happen here. Does Koobi saddles ever get any feedback on exactly what the $5k they allegedly donated is being spent for? Or is it just a tax writeoff? Until I start seeing patrollers on the trails (just back from 4 hours of local singletrack, nada, per usual) I'm still gonna be suspicious that all that donated cash is getting spent on something other than putting humans on bikes in patrol jerseys on the trails. prove me wrong. |
| It's none of your business, quite frankly... | Ken in KC.
Oct 22, 2003 1:02 PM | | Since your intent seems to be sitting on the sidelines, bitching and indicating that your local patrol leader is a thief, why do you feel that you deserve an answer?
As I've suggest to you many times, how any regionally donated money is spent is the business of the local patrol and the benefactor and is specifically not the business of some whiny brat who moans and complains about volunteers, yet refuses to become involved himself.
The relationshp between Koobi and IMBA is bewteen Koobi and IMBA.
Your last post is so completely inane, that it's hard for me to pick a place to start. The beginning, I suppose:
"if the patrollers are paying $90 out of pocket, and the patrol org. is furnishing $200 in goods for this (although I don't consider memberships, future discounts, or training as "goods") then what is my local patrol group, or more precisely, the head organizer who has his hands on the group goodie bag, going to spend $7,000 on?"
I didn't say that your local patrollers were paying $90 out of pocket. The patrollers in the Midwest who are part of the Midwest Mountain Bike Patrol are paying $90 out of pocket. I don't really care what you consider "goods". Saving $60 on a Camelback, $30 on jerseys, $200 on an HID, medical training up to and including First Responder ($200-$400 depending on your location) are all benefits that the Midwest Mountain Bike Patrol offers their volunteers. If a patroller chooses to take advantage of any or all of these offers, then the $90 cost is qucikly paid back. Out of the $90, after the local patrol pays out the costs of jerseys, medical training and memberships (which is a product that you would purchase and therefor a good) we rake in a whopping $5! WOW! A whole $5!!!!!! We're robbing our volunteers blind! We take that $5 and but gu packs for people that have bonked, medical supplies to resupply patrollers who use their supplies to help others, and tubes to replace those that patrollers give out to others.
We will receive $1,000 - $2,000 this year from one of our local race series promoters. We will use part of that money to purchase additional patrol radios. At $300 a pop, that means that we will be able to step up and supply our 50+ patrollers with a whopping 6 radios, at best! Again, we're getting rich off of our sponsors, according to you.
I don't know how the $7,000 you claim was raised will be used. Quite frankly, it's none of my business, because I'm not a volunteer for the Durango patrol. Are you?
Why do you assume that the local patrol leader "has his hands on the goodie bag"? What exactly does this mean? Should someone else (like you?) determine how the patrol spends and manages their donations? Who else should manage patrol funds, other than the patrol?
"That was my original point, not that there shouldn't be patrols, hey I know patrollers in Moab that save lives weekly, although personally, many of the idiots they rescue don't deserve to live to breed. "
Humm.... So your suggesting that people who make mistakes shouldn't be allowed to recover from those mistakes? Many of the "idiots that they rescue" make mistakes and under estimate situations that they put themselves in. That doesn't mean that they should die for those mistakes.
"My original point, or question, was, and still is, who oversees, audits, governs, whatever, what this one guy does with the $7,000 he's basically given?"
I've already answered this numerous times and in numerous ways. I'll try and spell it out for you: If a donation is made to a local patrol, then the local patrol determines how the money is used. Is this really that hard to understand? If you want to know how the local patrol is psending their funds, then join and find out, otherwise, it remains non of your business
"You would think $7,000 worth of anything would buy some public exposure, but like I said, other than one guy being spotted one time in a patrol t-shirt quaffing free beer, no one around here that I know -- and I get around -- has seen a patroller, not on the trails, not at the races, not at the huge downtown bike fest we just had, nowhere."
$7,000 worth of advertising gets you next to nothing. $7,000, while it may seem like a lot of money to you, buys 1 AED and 9 radios. It simply sin;t that much money. And still, it's none of your business how it's spent. How the patrol manages its moeny is the patrols business and the business of the sponsors. If the sponsors don't think their investment was a good one, then they won't give them any more money
"You would think the guy would have spent some of his $7,000 on setting up a booth, hand out some literature, have his patrollers mill around in their flashy jerseys, etc. Wouldn't you take advantage of a captive bike-friendy audience of thousands in your home town to do something like that? Me too. "
And if he had, you could have come back on him and bitched about spending moeny on a fancy booth, vs. patrolling. It's easy and cowardly to sit on the side and cast stones. Way to go, hero. Incidently, I would have had a booth at the show or beend patrolling the event, but since I'm not part of the Durango patrol, it's none o f my business to determine how it's run.
"Does Koobi saddles ever get any feedback on exactly what the $5k they allegedly donated is being spent for? Or is it just a tax writeoff?"
Sure they get feedback from IMBA. They donate to IMBA based on information that IMBA presents them. You're confusing the National Mountain Bike Patrol (IMBA) with your regional branch of the National Mountain Bike Patrol.
What to you mean "allegedly". So now you're suggesting the IMBA sponsors don't really donate to IMBA? That it's a big scam to line the pockets of... well... who, exactly?
"Until I start seeing patrollers on the trails (just back from 4 hours of local singletrack, nada, per usual) I'm still gonna be suspicious that all that donated cash is getting spent on something other than putting humans on bikes in patrol jerseys on the trails. prove me wrong. "
I can promise that you will see a patroller on the trail every time you ride, if you join the patrol. Until then, be as suspicios as you want, but quit slandering the people that are volunteers.
Conclusion
So far you've accused IMBA and the local patrol director of stealing money that was donated to them.
You've refused to get involved with the local patrol, while complaining nationally and publicly about what you perceive as a lack of effectiveness with your local patrol.
You've complained publicly about the price of joining the patrol, even though Kevin Stein (the Director of the National Mountain Bike Patrol at IMBA) has offered to comp you a membership, so that you can determine if the organization is a good fit for you.
You continue to publicly lambast the patrol for controlling their own bank acounts, suggesting that you, somehow, should be made aware of how this moeny is spent, even though you refuse to get involved in the organization.
Am I missing something?
Ken |
| Sounds good. I'm starting the East Jesus Patrol, Send $$$ | club
Oct 22, 2003 5:40 PM | | so if I move to some podunk location, can I then start up a patrol and get $7,000 to run it, like the guy did who moved here and almost immediately started a patrol? I'm guessing I don't need to know the local trails, or local issues, just send in a form somewhere and wait for the fat check to clear.
Thanks for reconfirming my suspicion that there is no oversight on how the money donated to local chapters get spent. |
| Sounds good. I'm starting the East Jesus Patrol, Send $$$ | Bob Inda
Oct 22, 2003 7:58 PM | | Well, now that I've finally been made aware for this thread, I feel I should respond.
First the money:
The Durango-San Juan Patrol was granted $500 by the Koobi Freedom Foundation through IMBA. We were also Granted $500 (read Five Hundred dollars) by Ed Zink/Mountain Bike Specialists. The person who started this thread is obviously confusing our grant with the Five Thousand Dollar grant made to the Durango Wheel Club and doesn't have his facts straight. Where the money went? 2 years worth of insurance premiums, supplies and training pretty well ate it up. I have books and an advisory board.
Our presence on the trails:
First, the Durango area has lots of trails and we have a core group of 11 people. These people also have jobs to work, families to feed and pay attention to do other community service and have lives to lead aside from riding their bikes. The DJSMBP simply does not have the human resources to have a highly visible presence on the trails at any given time. We are volunteers and any bit of time given is good. I'll admit we also are not always in our uniform/jerseys either. We don't do laundry as often as we ride.
What I can vouch for is that we are out there and we are helping people when they need it. I've personally only attended to two injuries this year, both while wearing my jersey (one was actually last night, minor and to an MD.) most of us have thankfully only played the role of good will ambasador numerous times and have enjoyed the expeience as I have always. Other members of the DSJMBP have also done the job when they were needed. Thank god there have been more broken chains than broken bones.
DJSMBP at Events:
Yes I was at the trails 2000 picnic. No, I didn't drink any free beer, I don't drink. Another fact that was incorrect. As for the DSJMBP at other events, We made a policy decision to not burn people out by being at events in an official capacity so as to not duplicate the morale problems the Wisconsin Patrol had previously experienced with too many events and not enough trail time . DSJ Patrollers did however volunteer at the NORBA Nationals and yes, I volunteered wearing a volunteer T-Shirt at the Ballyhoo on Bikes fundraiser for the San Juan Mountains Association, another member lead a ride and another NMBP member visiting from Wisconsin, who was my guest for the week also volunteered there. We were not in uniform but wearing the uniform of the day issued by the event.
Volunteering and the MBP is not an ego trip were we have to stand up and and say "here we are, aint it great?!" It is about being there and helping when needed. Sometime we are in our jerseys and sometimes we are not.
I'm sorry that there is a Durangoan that has nothing better to do than be angry and resentful finding only the negative in things. I'm not dissapointed in our participation or results.
Regarding Personal attacks:
I've got the books and an advisory board.
Yes, I did get dropped on a group ride. I have no problem admitting I'm not stellar athlete, never was, never will be. I still enjoy riding as much as the next guy or gal. I have no time to train and I'm still not fully acclimated to elevation either. Being dropped on a road ride is one thing, dropping people on a non-competitive mountain bike ride is ettiquete that was foriegn to me.
As for starting the DSJMBP? I was asked to do it by other members of Durango's MTB community. I said OK and am comfortatble with what we have, more than existed before. |
| Hummm.... | Ken in KC.
Oct 23, 2003 5:54 AM | | It seems club is an even bigger whiner, poser, bitcher than I originally thought. Thanks for clarifying the big fat $7,000 check.
So club, you giagantic mope, is patrol insurance, supplies and training good enough for you. There's an advisory board and books are kept.
You, club, are in Durango. You had the chance to find all this information out prior to posting and slandering people on a public list. You chose, instead to lie, badger and basically make an ass of yourself without asking questions of the local patrol, and without checking and verifying even some basic facts.
How does your Sidi taste?
On another note, I had no idea club was talking about you, Bob. When did you move?
Ken |
| Surely You're Not This Daft? | Ken in KC.
Oct 23, 2003 5:44 AM | | Start a patrol. Run it as you see fit. Solicit sponsorship. Present sales and marketing plans to sponsors to support the patrol. Learn what the encompasses.
No one is going to "give" you a $7,000 check. You may earn a check, but it won't be a gift. There will be a payback for the organization that is donating the money.
I didn't say there wasn't accountability. I did say that the local patrollers are accountable for their own organization, not you. |
| No offense Ken..... | Dirtsurfer
Nov 9, 2003 6:02 PM | | But based on my patrol experience, Club would not be a good candidate patroller. Yes I'm being sarcastic. |
| None taken... | Ken in KC.
Nov 10, 2003 7:14 PM | | I agree. Of course, my point in discussing/defending the patrol, and in this case, Bob was that they were being portrayed unfairly. Rather than ignoring Club's remarks and slander, I chose to raise the bullshit flag.
As it turns out, Club was absolutely talking out of his backside. We've all noticed the lack of posting and responses from our friend Club, since Bob has presented the facts, vs. the non-stop pap that Club was vomiting all over this post?
Thanks for the observations.
Ken |
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