|   An open letter to IMBA | Dances With Hornets
Nov 10, 2003 11:29 PM | | The core of my message to you as expressed through email, my alerts and postings on the IMBA and Passion MTBR message boards is:
Does the California Wildlands Project:
http://www.calwild.org/campaigns/cwp.php
Or the "Yuba River Wildlands Campaign" anti-IMBA letter (by the wilderness proponents) that I posted on the IMBA MTBR message board (it's near the middle of this post):
Dances With Hornets "California Wilderness Update" 11/7/03 4:17pm
Have any connection to Dave Forman of EarthFirst! and his Wildlands Campaign mentioned here:
"REWILDING NORTH AMERICA Tuesday, October 21, 7:00 PM
The indomitable DAVE FORMAN is coming! In his new position as director of the Rewilding Institute, an offshoot of the Wildlands Project he has been spearheading for some years, he will discuss his goal of continental conservation (all of North America), and how he hopes to achieve it. He is writing a book on this topic, to be published by Island Press in 2004. As you may remember, Dave was an original member of Earth First! He has been working on conservation issues his entire adult life, was a director of the Sierra Club some years ago, and has written three books: The Lobo Outback Funeral Home, Confessions of an Eco Warrior, and The Big Outside. He will have copies of Lobo Outback available for sale and signing."
http://riogrande.sierraclub.org/santafe/home.html
What does "he will discuss his goal of continental conservation (all of North America)" mean in the in regards to current and future wilderness campaigns by the environmental movement?
If he has no connection to the Sierra Club why is he heralded almost as a savior in this announcement?
There is no disputing that Dave Forman, the founder of EarthFirst!, is the Chairman of the Wildlands Campaign as mentioned in this article where he tells you, Jim Hasenhauer, that he will never allow mountain bikes in wilderness:
"Existing wilderness areas must remain completely closed to bicycles and other human-powered wheeled contraptions."
http://www.warriorssociety.org/News/mtn_bike.pdf
Does this mean that after Dave Forman and his allies in the environmental movement achieve the current wilderness designations in California and elsewhere across the nation he and the rest of the environmental movement will stop seeking them?
Will he stop his and the environmental movements "goal of continental conservation (all of North America)" and all the restrictions this places on our ability to address forest management / devastating fires.
If he does not, how will Dave Forman and the environmental movements "goal of continental conservation (all of North America)" affect mountain bike access?
What is your answer Jim and Gary?
If Dave Forman of EarthFirst! won't allow mountain bikers into wilderness and if he achieves his goal of "continental conservation (all of North America)" does this bode well for our nation, much less recreational access?
And secondly
What is IMBA's position to address the devastating fires that have destroyed 19 million acres of forest - as well as destroyed the habitat of thousands of endangered and non-endangered species since 2000?
How will IMBA address making sure another 19 million acres or forest and the habitat of thousands of endangered and non-endangered (but soon to be endangered) species does not burn over the next 4 years?
IMBA cares about the environment right?
Is allowing the continued destruction of forests and habitat good or bad for access in light of the propensity of environmental groups to sue to close off access to protect species and their dwindling habitat?
Unless IMBA takes off their blinders they will continue to be strategically trumped by the environmental movement to the detriment of our forests and our access.
The environmental movement survives on the premise that mankind is evil when any action is taken to interject itself into managing our forests to address current or past mistakes in forest management.
Yet even native americans managed the forests by fire at a time in history when fuel loads were not built up as today to serve their needs for access .
I am again reminded of the quote by Alston Chase Ph.D. author of "Playing God in Yellowstone"
"The lesson in Playing God is that there is no such thing as leaving nature alone. People are part of creation. We do not have the option of choosing not to be stewards of the land. We must master the art and science of good stewardship. Unfortunately, a good many environmentalists still do not understand that the only way to preserve nature is to manage nature."
Who really is the fanatic?
Dances With Hornets |
| re: An open letter to IMBA | What does Dave Forman mean ...
Nov 11, 2003 8:43 AM | | What does "he will discuss his goal of continental conservation (all of North America)" mean?
Perhaps the following gives you a hint of what Dave Forman proposes.
We must make this an insecure and inhospitable place for capitalists and their projects . . . We must reclaim the roads and plowed land, halt dam construction, tear down existing dams, free shackled rivers and return to wilderness millions of tens of millions of acres of presently settled land.
-- David Foreman, Earth First!
http://www.earthfirstjournal.org/efj/primer/different.html
Maybe you both saw hope in the fact that in his statement and the statement posted on the EarthFirst! web site Dave never mentions banning mountain bikes from wilderness. Is that it?
My previous post put an end to that assumption.
I apologize for offending you Preacher but analyzing the regulars on this board and determining the most effective way to post does to get them read - but does not always translate into friendship. That's a risk I have to take.
I was not lying when I said I admired you based on your previous posts.
Dances With Hornets |
| Damn, thats F***'ed Up! | Fergie
Nov 11, 2003 1:20 PM | | 1930s era German Jews, Marines fighting in WWII, 911 victims, and burned children... What do all these people have in common? They are being used by the WS to try and score points!
In reading the posts and newsletters over the past year or two I'm continually amazed at the graves you set your soapbox on, and the people you use to push your little agenda. I thought that your use of pictures of planes hitting the World Trade Center buildings and the Marines raising the flag on Iwo Jima were a passing fad inspired by 911, but then I find you using a tragic incident of a family's loss and then a reference comparing German Jews reaction to Hitler to IMBAs policies???
"I don't consider IMBA dark evil-doers, I've never said that. ... I've said they were naive, sort of like the Jews who ignored Hitler when he first came to power. If what you said about IMBA sitting back and laughing is true, I would indeed welcome that, I like being underestimated than overestimated. "
Well, I would say it's different, I don't think any of the topics discussed on this board can even begin to compare with being a Jew during the rise of Hitler and the Nazi's. You can say what ever you want, but stop using other peoples suffering to try and, and... wait why are you invoking all these horrific epic events? To try and prevent some forest becoming Wilderness? To try and slam IMBA or Dave Forman? Hmmm, where I come from we have more respect for victims then that. |
| Whose using what to whose advantage? | Dances With Hornets
Nov 11, 2003 5:39 PM | | Ah Fergie,
You have been quiet since I refuted your accusation that we did no trail work by showing you our "Trails Advocate" for Region 5 awarded to us by the Forest Service - and made fun of that equestrian leader pictured on the cover of our newsletter.
I never stated that the issue of wilderness was on par with the slaughter of Jews during World War II, The point I made was that IMBA displays the same naiveté as Jews (and others) who ignored the threats that the Nazis presented as they rose to power and consolidated control.
It was a lesson of history that has been too often repeated. IMBA underestimates the intentions of the environmental movement to consolidate the power of environmental organizations under the wildlands project to control the management of our public lands. It is not about killing innocent people, it is about consolidating control.
Did I ever state that the Wilderness issue is comparable to the slaughter of millions of Jews? No, but you accuse me of such.
It was you who tried to turn this around and take advantage of it to your use.
As far as:
"I thought that your use of pictures of planes hitting the World Trade Center buildings and the Marines raising the flag on Iwo Jima"
I never had a picture of planes flying into the World Trade Center. The pictures you reference to are in my commentary:
"Do the Mainstream Environmental Organizations Deserve Your Blind Support?
This commentary was on how the policies of the environmental movement and the effect they have on our economy and national security. The wilderness issue is but a small part of this three part commentary.
http://www.warriorssociety.org/Newsletters/2002_Summer/Page_8.html
In it I use one picture from the 911 disaster that was popular at the time but the context of the editorial was on economics and national security, big topics at the time. September 11th put this all into focus; it was a watershed moment in our history and made us all realize we are not as safe as we seem.
If I remember correctly we had a debate about two years ago in which you defended EarthFirst! and Dave Forman and stated that what they do is not terrorism, but excusable for them to further their aims.
If I remember correctly you lost that debate.
You have everyright to write your own commentary defending Dave Forman and his environmental allies anti-capitalistic ideology. You could provide evidence of the threats capitalism and our economic success have to the safety of our country and our defense/security.
You could write of the utopia we'd all live in free from threats outside our country. I'd like to read that commentary.
I can understand your attempt to defend Dave Forman and distract from the assertions I made in my open letter to IMBA.
It was a good try. |
| As far as Sept. 11th | Dances With Hornets
Nov 11, 2003 6:18 PM | | Fergie,
As far as my thoughts on September 11th:
http://www.warriorssociety.org/Newsletters/2001_Winter/Page_15.html |
| What does Dave Forman say about the value of human life? | Dances With Hornets
Nov 12, 2003 5:11 AM | | You accuse me of being callous about human life. What about the millions lost to AIDS? How does your hero Dave Forman view those lives lost and the value of human life in general?
"We advocate biodiversity for biodiversity's sake. It may take our extinction to set things straight." David Foreman, Earth First!
"Phasing out the human race will solve every problem on earth, social and environmental." Dave Forman, Founder of Earth First!
"If radical environmentalists were to invent a disease to bring human populations back to sanity, it would probably be something like AIDS" Earth First! Newsletter
And you say I promote my agenda on human graves?
Radical environmental terrorists like ALF (Animal Liberation Front) ELF (Earth Liberation Front) and EarthFirst! have in common with their Al Quida brothers is a desire to enforce their agenda over our lives by using terrorist tactics. Since they cannot get the public to support their ideology and political/social beliefs, they use terrorist tactics in an attempt to bring them about.
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| Fortunately for the entire planet... | dave54
Nov 12, 2003 9:43 AM | | dave forman and all the lunatic fringe have zero credibility and zero influence among even the most tree-hugger elected officials and policy makers. Basically they run around and make noise while no one pays any serious attention. When they cross the line and commit violence society has the moral responsibility to deal with them. If the government does not deal with them then by default individuals then have the moral right to defend themselves. |
| Fortunately for the entire planet... | freshsushi
Nov 13, 2003 12:59 PM | | " dave forman and all the lunatic fringe have zero credibility and zero influence among even the most tree-hugger elected officials and policy makers. Basically they run around and make noise while no one pays any serious attention." < Sound a lot like Dances With Hornets! ;-) |
| There too busy reading the posts on IMBA to pay attention... | Dances With Hornets
Nov 13, 2003 1:26 PM | | Maybe your right,
Their too busy reading the posts about IMBA activities posted on this board and paying not attention to my posts.
( - ; |
| I am dissapointed... | Dances With Hornets
Nov 15, 2003 9:55 PM | | I make mistakes in spelling and grammar to provide an opportunity for you die hard IMBA and Dave Forman/environmental movement supporters to distract attention to the points I'm making in my posts.
You neglect to take advantage of it.
A change in strategy...
Dances With Hornets |
| Thanks for the compliment! | dave54
Nov 14, 2003 9:21 AM | | n/m |
| Fortunately for the entire planet... | dave54
Nov 12, 2003 9:43 AM | | dave forman and all the lunatic fringe have zero credibility and zero influence among even the most tree-hugger elected officials and policy makers. Basically they run around and make noise while no one pays any serious attention. When they cross the line and commit violence society has the moral responsibility to deal with them. If the government does not deal with them then by default individuals have the moral right to defend themselves. |
| I appreciate your posts Fergie | Dances With Hornets
Nov 11, 2003 9:02 PM | | Fergie,
I do appreciate your posts. I do not have the luxury of having Pete and Zonic Man to attract attention to my posts; they seem to have lost direction despite the offer I previously offered to them of free entry into a Warrior's Society Pow Wow event if they raised the hit counts on my posts past 1,000.
You share one thing in common with them. A "Shout them down" strategy employed by the environmental movement that never addresses the charges made - but attempts to distract from them.
This was very evident in your last post. You did nothing to discredit my statements in my open letter to IMBA and ignored the points I made of IMBA dismissing the attempt by radical environmentalists, such as Dave Forman, to consolidate power and control over public lands policy. You took advantage of the death of millions of Jews in an attempt to discredit me.
I do not look at your opposing posts as a detriment to my statements; on the contrary, you prove them correct.
On another note, do you wish to debate me on the moral merits of your support of animal rights activist such as PETA and their terrorists acts?
A rat's life has as much merit as a human's life right?
If I remember correctly you lost that debate too. But I've assimilated a lot more data related to that debate and I'd be more than willing to engage you in it for a second time.
Dances With Hornets. |
| Wow! You are one hell of a scum bag! | Fergie
Nov 12, 2003 1:04 PM | | "You took advantage of the death of millions of Jews in an attempt to discredit me."
YOU ARE OUT OF YOUR MIND!!!
I said that it is wrong to use tragic events to push less serious issues, like where you can ride your mountain bike for pleasure. I don't think two such totally different topics should be compared. It is like comparing things that cost people some money, vs killing many of them It is VERY VERY different.
To be honest, the BS statements you make about me are so far out, I don't know where to begin. Arguing you would be like beating up a person covered in crap. I could win, but I don't want to go near you with a ten foot clown pole.
PS You were completely right, there is not a picture of a plane hitting the towers, it was the picture of the two towers, then a picture of the firefighters raising the flag in the rubble, in you article about environmentalists. My mistake. |
| re: Some true statements from this thread: | The Preacher
Nov 12, 2003 10:18 AM | | “Phasing out the human race will solve every problem on earth, social and environmental.”Well, it WOULD. The thing is, thinning the forests will not save the human race, and leaving the forests alone will not drive the human race to extinction. The survival AND the extinction of mankind is ultimately not up to us. "...they run around and make noise while no one pays any serious attention."
This goes for the other side of the lunatic fringe coin, as well. |
| re: Sorry, I realize now, my previous post is a bit off topic... | The Preacher
Nov 12, 2003 10:35 AM | | ...and that we have beaten the forests subject beyond all recognition. I'll shut up now. |
| Hey, it made more sense than most of this shit (nm) | Dwight Moody
Nov 15, 2003 2:43 PM | | |
| Thanks Dwight | Dances With Hornets
Nov 15, 2003 9:44 PM | | Dwight,
Thanks for your most eloquent and intelligent response to my posts. I was beginning to lose faith in you die hard IMBA and environmental movement supporters; you seem to have lost the energy to attract traffic to my posts.
I suggest you expend the same energy to post these intelligent responses on the IMBA related news posts on this message board.
Hopefully they'll attract hits to these IMBA posts.
They seem to be lacking attention.
Dances With Hornets |
| up yours | Dwight Moody
Nov 28, 2003 1:09 PM | | Frankly, you make the least amount of sense here. Your ravings attract hits, probably for the entertainment value. Why you think this is so damn special is beyond me. You obviously are sort of an arogant and unpleasant person, regardless of the correctness or incorrectness of your ideas.
So anyway, go ride your bike. |
| I did ride my bike! | Dances With Hornets
Nov 30, 2003 9:34 PM | | Dwight,
I did ride my bike! We rode the Chiquita Trail in the Blue Jay area. We had brushed the trail two weeks ago and it was in primo condition!
I sure took you a long time to respond!
Dances With Hornets |
| long time | Dwight Moody
Dec 5, 2003 5:53 PM | | It took a long time because I don't pay much attention to you. |
| Somebody must be paying attention to my posts and not IMBA's | Dances With Hornets
Dec 9, 2003 10:27 PM | | Dwight,
Last time I looked the latest IMBA related posts had a total of 41 hits and my posts had a minimum of 1,312 hits.
This is the IMBA message board on MTBR.com is it not?
Yet why do IMBA related posts generate so little interest?
And my posts generate so much interest?
Yet you assert:
"It took a long time because I don't pay much attention to you."
Well if you aren't, somebody sure as hell is, and they aren't paying attention to IMBA.
I trust you are not one of them.
( - ;
Dances With "many" Hornets |
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