|   Main difference in feel between Marz/Black/Fox *coil* forks? | SJT
Apr 9, 2002 10:31 AM | | I want a coil fork because I enjoy the trail sensitivity they offer. I've been looking for the past few weeks at what is out there and have narrowed down my choices to a coil fork from either Marz. (Z2), Manitou (Black) or Fox (Vanilla).
Marz. are supposed to be super dependable, but heavy and the Z2 Atom I am looking at does not have adjustable travel (only 80mm). The Manitou Black forks are new, so long-term durability is unknown, but have adjustable travel (on-the-fly from 80-100mm). Lastly, the Fox Forx Vanilla is also new, but is super adjustable and can be had with a lock-out, or without.
Does anyone have any experience riding these forks that could tell me how they "feel" on the trail? Do they differ much in what you need to do to maintain them? The adjustability of the Fox and Black forks would be nice, and a lock out would also be nice, but I don't want to sacrifice long-term durability. I weigh about 185 pounds and will be putting one of these on a steel hardtail which currently has an air fork. Any information would help me in my decision. Right now I'm leaning towards getting a '01 Atom Race, but could be influenced otherwise. Thanks
-Steve |
| Fox Fox Fox Fox Fox Fox | El Jester
Apr 9, 2002 11:29 AM | | IMO the Fox is the better of the 3. I own a 02 Z1 and a 02 Vanilla 125 RLC. The Fox is more responsive on the trail than the Z1, has better adjustability, is stiffer, weighs less and has adj travel settings that can be done in 5 min. The only reason I like the Z1 is for the ECC feature (makes climbing on my 6" Bullit a little easier) but probably not necessory in your case. My Fox is installed on my hardtail at the 125mm setting. I was able to dial in the Fox so perfectly that I never use the lockout.
After 2 months of use I have yet to have any issues w/ my Fox. Their customer svc is great, my fork arrived sans the 2 extra springs and I emailed them to ask about getting the x-heavy 45lb spring that is usually not 1 of the 2 included and I got a reply the same day offering to send me the 35lb & 45lb springs free. They arrived 3 days later! I had to pay my LBS $35 to do the same to the Z1.
All 3 are good choices but I feel the Fox is just a step above the rest. Best prices on these are at www.mtnhighcyclery.com and www.jensonusa.com.
Sorry so long and Good luck. |
| Man, the Fox hype is an epidemy | Davide
Apr 9, 2002 6:31 PM | | basically none the statements comparing Fox with the Z1 is correct. The Fox is not more responsive on the trail (it all depends on set up, both forks are quite capble in this regard), it is not lighter (or maybe by 50 grams) it is not easier to adjust either on the trail or to fine tune (if anything the Z1 has a wider choice of springs to choose from)
... mah ... |
| How many hours with the Fox? | Nat
Apr 9, 2002 7:03 PM | | Davide, I noticed in your Product Review of this fork you stated "tested or demo'ed only." I was curious as to exactly how much time you've spent on this fork, since you're very adamant about your evaluation.
Nat |
| How many hours with the Fox? | Davide
Apr 9, 2002 9:38 PM | | I took it out a total of five times (20+20+120+120+60), and actually I came to like the fork more as time passed by. But, listen all I am saying is that the level of hype that sorrounds this fork in these pages was justified if we were in, say, 1996, when the state of the art was a Judy and the new Marzocchi came out. Now, that was a change! and it took the rest of the industry 3 years to reach the level of a Marz. But now?
Now the differences between top of the line Marz, RS, Manitou and Fox are small, and these forks are really, really close in performance.
I love the Z1, but I am not going around to say that it is vastly superior to everything out there ... |
| Zoke love has faded away! | El Jester
Apr 10, 2002 5:22 AM | | Like I said in my previous post, Unlike yourself, I own and ride both the Z1 and the Vanilla. I have approx 45+hrs on each and this is not hype. The Fox is difenatly lighter than my 02 Z1 Freeride. I held both in my hands before installing them and there is a very noticeable differance. (And yes both steer tubes are within 1/4" of each other.) I wish I had a good Digital scale to prove this. IMO the Fox is a better fork for agressive trail riding.
As for the spring selection, Fox has 5 spring weights for the 125mm setting and 2 additional for 80-100mm settings. (oh yea, did I mention that Fox send them to ya free!) The Fox is easier to tune also due to the high quality adjustment knobs that have detents so that you can tell where you are when dialing it in. (rebound 12 clicks - Compression 9 clicks - preload 22 clicks - and lock-out blowoff 12 clicks)
The Fox is definately more responsive and stiffer on the trail and has the added convinence of not having a "QR-20" to accomplish it. It takes steering input much better especially in rough terrain. It has less braking induced dive (I use hayes hyd). The Z1 does outperfom it in small stutter bumps at high speed though.
I'm not putting down the Marzocchi as I have been riding a Z1 or JrT of some sort for the past 4 years and still own one. The ECC technology is super for longer travel FR bikes that need to be pedaled up hill. Not to mention that the dual crown Zokes rule for big hits and drops.
I know this is a hard pill to swallow for all you die hard Marzocchi fans but Fox has produced a single crown fork that surpasses the Zokes performance. Sorry! |
| Doesn't sound like hype | Roy
Apr 10, 2002 6:58 AM | | Sounds like a well reasoned analysis after lengthy experience with both forks. Also, it doesn't sound like the Fox is as far ahead of the Marz as the Marz is ahead of the Judy, but that between the two the Fox is obviously superior. More of an incremental improvement than an order of magnitude.
Nicely done SS. |
| Exactly! | El Jester
Apr 10, 2002 7:13 AM | | Incremental improvement is exactly what it is. It is the little things that make a difference.
This is my opinion based on my experience with both brands. I like my Z1 but I like my Fox more. Everyone is intitled to there own, but please base it on facts and not a purchase defence. |
| Exactly! | The Squeaky Wheel
Apr 10, 2002 10:46 AM | | Thank you SS. My experience with my Fox isn't exactly apples to apples, but its similar to yours. First, I have the Float 100 which is air-sprung. Second, I'm comparing it to a Z2 race with 80mm travel, not a Z1.
Before picking up the fox in december I wouldn't even have considered getting an air-sprung fork. I had been riding Zokes for several years and didn't think anything could give a better all around ride. But my impressions of the Fox are the same as yours. The stiffness is real and is felt most noticeably on off-camber terrain & through rock gardens. It definitely makes a difference. Plushness is superb on big hits & I've gotten full travel out of the box. Adjustability on both is excellent, but I too like the Fox because of the positive-engagement clicks on the dial as opposed to the Zoke. The Zoke is a little better at the stutter bumps, but not by much.
In the end, the stiffness is the most appreciable factor and it just gives a more enjoyable ride.
My only hesitation is the long-term durability, but the Fox is well built and they're a good company so I'm not overly concerned.
Squeak |
| SS, with all due respect: there is more than one contraddiction | Davide
Apr 11, 2002 6:55 PM | | in what you say. According to your own evaluation (I do not agree completely but for the sake of argument):
Marz: better for small stutter bumps at speed
better because of ECC
Fox: better stifness
better responsivness
better dials (oh well)
Based on this the FOX is, according to you, superior? strange scoring system you adopt. And to top it all you tell us that even is the Fox is superior you use the Z1 on on your full suspension? Mah! I do not understand |
| Clarification | El Jester
Apr 12, 2002 6:54 AM | | I was in the position of having to buy 2 new forks within a 4 week period. I purchased the Z1 first (I was skeptical about the Fox at this point because there was only 3 reviews on it and they all conflicted and I didn't know or see anyone on one, plus I have been on a Zoke for the last 4 years) to replace a JrT for my Bullit. Soon after I sold the fork from my second bike (Hardtail) and decided to give the Fox a try based on post By Ventanarama and a few others and more reviews. Here is a list of positive characteristics for both.
Z1 - Good on small "stutter" bumps (Level ground)
- ECC (lowers frt end) only effective if terrain is smooth
125 RLC - More torsionally stiff
- Better tracking/more precise steering
- Less dive under hard braking
- Easier to adj because of better dials
- lockout blow-off is adjustable Which stiffens the
compression while stiff being active
Bottom line: I like my Z1 but I love the Fox! Anybody want to buy an '02 Z1 Freeride? |
| you just corroborated his argument.... | ibismojo
Apr 11, 2002 3:47 AM | | you realize that right.... |
| Huh? | The Squeaky Wheel
Apr 11, 2002 5:43 AM | | Ibismojo, you talkin' to me? (it sounds better if you envision a Robert DeNiro voice).
Sorry, I don't follow your stance.
Squeak |
| I'll second | Nat
Apr 9, 2002 7:01 PM | | I rode a Z1 for about 3 years, and now have a Vanilla 125R that I've had for just under half a year. I like the Fox much better. I wrote a review in the Product Reviews section of this site, and the only addendum to it is that one of the seals dribbled a bit too much oil for my liking. Fox warranteed the seal and now there's no more dribble. |
| re: Main difference in feel between Marz/Black/Fox *coil* forks? | Gil
Apr 10, 2002 6:59 AM | | All forks offer different ride qualities and different adjustments, I have owned or still own all 3, the Fox being my favorite with quality of workmanship and adjustability. It could and probably will be better, and the same goes for Marzocchi. Ride what you will, but defending your purchase in this message board with ignorance is getting sickening! |
| Wild card | Jaybo
Apr 10, 2002 9:24 AM | | I have never ridden a Fox as they are too darn expensive still. However, I have many years of untroubled experience on Marzocchi forks. I have also ridden my SID 100 for two years with no problems (another story). However, the Fox is still too much money. I never pay over $300 for a fork here in the NW. The weather here just shortens their life so much that spending a ton is kinda silly. Oh, Marz. live a long time in bad conditions. I would like to try the Fox, but they are still too much dough. |
| $359 for Vanilla R | El Jester
Apr 10, 2002 10:49 AM | | Take all this into account when you compare prices.
MARZOCCHI: Add new springs ($30), QR-20 ($100) Plus building a new wheel ($20 labor), getting a "Fork-Up" so it will fit your roof rack ($30).
FOX: None |
| And your point is? | HooKooAl
Apr 10, 2002 12:19 PM | | listing prices is all well and good but I dont think everyone who buys a Marzocchi automatically has to buy new springs, QR20 and all the other gubbins you listed I'm afraid.
Alan. |
| My point was.... | El Jester
Apr 11, 2002 4:13 AM | | If you want your Marzocchi to be as stiff and precise as the Fox you will need to get a QR-20 model, which also includes getting a new wheel built and figuring out how to transport it. As far as the springs go, atleast if you do need to go up or down a spring weight it is possible w/o spending more $$.
I was just pointing out that the Fox is not as "expensive" as alot of people have posted on these boards because it does not require any additional spending to get it up and running. |
| But..... | HooKooAl
Apr 11, 2002 11:57 AM | | The thing is many people (including myself) wont feel the extra stiffness is worth the extra money, other wise we would have bought a Fox in the first place right? I suspect a lot of people are able to achieve a satisfactory ride through just tinkering with preload and oil levels without having to buy new springs, but they are definitely a bonus. Who knows, maybe I'll splash out for a Fox in the future and completely change my mind but for now I'm perfectly happy with my Marz.
Alan |
| But..... Just to continue the debate | El Jester
Apr 12, 2002 7:11 AM | | You said it all in this statement "I suspect a lot of people are able to achieve a satisfactory ride... ". IMO this is what's wrong with comsumers today. We are all so happy to get a Satisfactory product in the sea of crap that is available that we become complaceint and stop looking for or expecting an excellent product. I beleive Fox has made an excellent product. I know there are posts by people having some problems with their new Fox, most have also said how well Fox CS has handled their problem.
Maybe my use of the word "stiffness" was incorrect or unclear in trying to describe the fork. I was not refering to the compression rate or feel but the torsional stiffness that provides the exceptionally precise steering control especially over rough off-camber terrain.
Ride on (regardless of fork brand) |
| My bad there.... | HooKooAl
Apr 12, 2002 12:20 PM | | Yeah, I was talking about torsional stiffness first then went straight into the ride. What I meant was that the extra torsional stiffness may not be worth the money and many people can get their forks set up without the need for different springs. Should have made that clearer. But back to the subject.
Of course everyone would prefer an excellent product over a satisfactory one but then we come back to the price. Excellence costs and in this case I just dont feel the excellence justifies the cost for me, then again I'm a college student and dont have much money to be throwing around anyway. I think the price gap between Marz and Fox is even bigger here in the UK than the US as well.
Alan. |
| wouldn't you think... | ibismojo
Apr 11, 2002 3:52 AM | | that you'd get your money's worth if you did pay for a fox? a bike well taken cared of won't have to worry about lifespan because of weather. jumping off roofs 20x a day, 7 days a week, for 6 months will do more than enough damage than weather ever will. |
| Black comments | -- Jeff
Apr 10, 2002 2:18 PM | | Lots of talk here about the Marz and Fox, but I'll throw out some comments about the Black. The "Travel Adjuster" is kinda bogus. All it does is lock the fork down with 20mm of preload. So if you want an 80mm fork, don't get a Black 80/100. When its locked down, you are basically eliminating your sag that is critical to smoothing out the stutter bumps. I got a Black 100/120 for a bike that is designed for a 100mm fork. I thought I would run it like that and pop it out to 120 everyonce in a while for a downhill. But it really runs crappy at 100 and the bike doesn't handle corners well at 120. And the adjuster is at the bottom of the fork, so you have to stop.
So I've got a Fox on order.
Oh, one more thing. I thought the Black was bottoming out a bit too easy so I got a firm spring. (I'm 200 lbs). OMG it is stiff. Way over the top. I can't imagine anybody running it unless they are 300lbs or doing huge drops. With such a stiff spring on just one side of the fork, you can watch the wheel visibly move to one side when you compress the fork. And they supply it with a metal top cap, so you loose preload adjustment, not that I would need it. I'm guessing the stiff spring was cracking their plastic preload adjuster. |
| Thanks to all for the great advice, would love to hear more! nt | SJT
Apr 10, 2002 4:22 PM | | nt |
| I haven't ridden bombers much but... | Kornphlake
Apr 10, 2002 10:42 PM | | I rode the black for a day and it seemed pretty smooth, except for the tendancy to bottom quite easily, and the compression dampening wasn't very adjustable. My Fox Vanilla seems a little more responsive(based upon experience, not opinion) but if you don't ride one you'll never know what you are missing, you are talking about three great forks from three great companies. I would probabally go with the zoke if you really wanted reliability and if you wanted your bike to look like everybody elses. Get the Fox if you want to be the first kid on your block to have one and you want to be the first to have problems. Get the black if you want to support the underdog. The difference is marginal, again if you never ride the others you won't know the difference you'll only know it is better than your last fork. |
| My experience | kristian
Apr 11, 2002 9:05 AM | | My first suspension fork was a Manitou Mach 5 SX and I broke it. The damping cartridge was what held the sliders on and it broke right at the very thin threaded part. Even though Manitou customer service was helpful in sending me a new damping cart to fix it, I never had confidence in the fork after that. I sold the fork shortly after and will never put another Manitou on any bike. (Don't let my bias effect your purchase--I'm just explaining why I'm not going to talk much about the Manitou).
The Manitou got replaced by a 97 Marzocchi z2 which was the first of 6 Marzocchi's I've owned (I had a grassroots sponsorship from them for two years). Their forks are consistant performers and very durable. They are also very easy to maintain. My only real complaint is the lack of stiffness of their 5" travel single crowns, but that won't be a factor for you since you are looking at a 4"er. You absolutely cannot go wrong with a Marzocchi as a trail riding fork.
That being said, I'm in the process of building a bike for my fiance and I plan on putting a Fox Vanilla R on it. I haven't ridden a Fox yet, but I've heard enough good things about them that I'm willing to take a chance. Besides, it's over $100 cheaper than the Atom 100. Since her bike will see everything from straight XC riding to lift-serviced downhilling and I would like to easily be able to change the travel. Also, since I will ride the bike occasionally, I am curious to see how stiff it is in the 5" setting.
If money is an issue and you aren't squeemish about buying version 1.0 of a fork (and possibly dealing with a few little issues), get the Fox. If you aren't worried about the money and you want a proven performer that won't let you down, get the Marzocchi. |
| As far as the coil forks go, don't bother to go Black for adjust | AZ-X
Apr 11, 2002 11:29 AM | | -able travel. The person who posted is correct about the loss of sag and negative spring at the lower settings. I'm sure that this also effected his spring rate when he got the new "stiff" spring. If you want an 80mm coil sprung, stiff fork, look elsewhere, but if you want a 100mm or 120mm fork, then give them some serious consideration because only the Fox matches it in chasis stiffness and I'm not positive that the damping will be as good--especially now that the Blacks are coming from the factory with TPC+ installed.
The Black Air forks are overall more plush and smooth. I assume, however, that you aren't interested in those. I actually think that Marzocchis are the forks that are currently the most overrated. You should try them all though if you get a chance. They will feel a bit different to everyone... |
| |
