|   TALAS RLC first impression | dmz
Mar 15, 2003 6:05 PM | | I've so far ridden three times on this fork and the performance is outstanding.
Last year I had a chance to try Fox Float RL fork and compare to that fork, TALAS is more plush through it's travel. It already saved me once when I landed front wheel first. If it were my Mars Elite, I could have kissed the ground:-).
One glitch is that although the fox advertises that compression damping has a "noticeably" wider wrange of adjustablity but in my short experience compression nob still doesn't do much if any. I am saying this 'cause my Mars Elite '01 which I'm pretty satisfied with has much noticeable change when I rotate compression damping dial on top of the right stancheon tube.
Only thing that justify the higher price of RLC over RL is adjustable blowoff nob which is pretty useful. If you don't need that feature then you are better off with R or RL.
Just my thought.
I would appreciate any other opinion with regard to compression damping in TALAS RLC from other users. |
| Uh-oh | Tscheezy
Mar 15, 2003 6:29 PM | | More drool-worthy reports. I would imagine that the dampers are the same across the line of forks, so every one's "C" should behave the same. While they said they were going to make the compression adjuster do more, they didn't promise that it would do much. It was just supposed to address ride height through some subtle speed sensitive dampening, unlike the across-the-board dampening most manufacturers go for. My 2002 RLC's "C" does dick, and I have a 2003 coming and I'm not expecting much from the "C" then either. Personally I don't care for compression dampening anyway, I just like the blowoff adjust. Sort of a silly thing to spend $50 extra on.
tscheezy |
| re:Uh-oh | dmz
Mar 15, 2003 8:29 PM | | Yes, performancewise, it felt even smoother than the Vanilla rear shock on my XCE. It even made me feel like the rear is a little more harsh compared to the front. this is when I added 70 psi of air in front ( as fox manual suggested ) and no preload in the rear with 500 lb spring ( I'm 158 lb). |
| So fellas, tell me... | næstep
Mar 15, 2003 8:50 PM | | ...when I strip off the Fox Float RL that comes with my new bike and swap on my barely broken-in X-Vert Air, I'm not missing anything, right? I mean, the way-too-expensive TALAS is the cat's meow and stands head and shoulders about all others, including their "lowly" Float forks, right?
næstep |
| just what I wanted to hear | derby
Mar 15, 2003 10:08 PM | | excellent! So the Talas is smoother than a Vanilla rear shock with no preload on an FSR. Looks like I've got to go shake the piggy bank!
BTW, I think you can get your vanilla working even more plush if you go to a step lighter spring using 3 - 4 turns preload. You'll need to speed up rebound a click or two with the lighter spring to avoid mild pack down. The normal medium fast adjustment for rebound prevents top out knock. That change won't effect bob (actually my Tracer bobs less with a lighter spring setup, but the XCE isn't quite as pedal extending in the same gears). But don't do that if you are already bottoming lightly when seated climbing through quick smooth compressions.
Looks like the Talas on the fly adjustibility for climbing is in my future (hopefully soon) to match the longer travel Uzzi link I'm going to try for nearly 5 inch travel in back. Or if I don't like the longer travel change, I just want it to work better than my Z1, which even after a year and a half of frequent use still always feels like it has more stiction than the Vanilla-R in back.
Thanks for the reports guys,
-ray |
| Consumerism | Martino
Mar 16, 2003 4:05 PM | | ... There is a "new" fork that works better because it is plusher then last year Fox Air and it saves you from a wrong landing (which has nothing to do with being plush) ...
Any coil sprung fork out in the last 3 years would be at least as "plush", more tunable and certanly be more effective in helping with "landing mistakes"
So what exactly is worth $600? Where is the gigantic technological leap? Is it the totally irrelevant weight advantage (less then 200 grams ... sigh!). Is is the gadgets? Including a lockout that still puts you in the worst possible climbing position? |
| Stickinthemudism. Allow the faun-fest already, sheesh. nm | Tscheezy
Mar 16, 2003 7:20 PM | | |
| Oh, capisco. nm | Martino
Mar 16, 2003 7:52 PM | | |
| capisco? | derby
Mar 16, 2003 10:19 PM | | Anyway I've seen the Talas-R for $450, and I don't think I'd miss the LC for my interests. Yea a lot of money. So I'll probably hem-an-hah until I demo one to be sure.
Those new 3 and 4 inch travel Fox Float and Vanilla forks before the Talas sure felt and stiffer, more precise, and smoother than any 4 inch travel Marzocchi I've ridden on for years. I like adjustable frame geometry and the more linear sprung air Talas sounds like the most advanced in adjustment for the front of the bike. I'd rather use a coil sprung Talas if they make one soon to avoid messing with air pressures with major altitude changes and bleed down.
- ray |
| Capisco is Italian for kapish which is Yiddish for gotcha. nm | Tscheezy
Mar 16, 2003 11:38 PM | | |
| I disagree..... | Ventanarama
Mar 16, 2003 11:02 PM | | it's not just consumerism, this really is a damn good fork! I'm not saying you should buy one, if it's not the right fork for you then you shouldn't, no matter how high or low the price is. A couple of counter-points though....
"Any coil fork from the last 3 years would be at least as plush"? I disagree. I've ridden most of the high-end coil forks on the market from the last 3 years, the Talas rides better and is MORE tuneable than most of them.
Where's the technologial leap?..... It's the fist air fork with a linear spring rate. It's the first fork (air or coil) with a really good adjustable travel system (the Psylo is childs play compared to this thing) and the first that keeps the spring rate virtually identical no matter what the travel setting is. Some people couldn't care less about adjustable travel (with or without linear spring rate), and if that's the case I'd tell them not to buy one. But to others it's a huge feature and the price tag is well worth it. To many people, a 200g weight difference for a fork with equal ride quality is definitely not irrelevant.
A lockout that puts you in the worst climbing position?.... Since when is 85mm a bad climbing position? For most climbs, I'd take the Talas set at 85mm with no lockout over a Marz locked down with ETA/ECC anyday. I have a Talas and an 03'Z1-FR QR20. The Talas in 85mm setting with lockout off is definitely better on climbs than the Z1 with ETA engaged.
Larry Mettler
http://www.mtnhighcyclery.com |
| $700/200 grams = 35$/gram more expensive then real caviar | Martino
Mar 17, 2003 12:04 AM | | And I repeat: we are talking minutiae here. 200 grams is utterly completely irrelevant even to racers. Certanly is of no importance whatsever to the trail riders this fork is marketed to... really what difference can it make? That you are 3 calories short ar the end of a 4 hours ride? Once and forever let not be ridiculus about weight 200 grams is less then 0.05% of the total weight of a bike+rider+cloths. Who are we kidding?
The lockout, let's see: the hill is approaching I reach down with my left hand and turn until I go from 125 to 85, then I reach down with my right hand and I lock out the fork. Now I am left with a rigid fork which does not absorbe anything of the trail: great! What an improvement!!
Better then an ETA? Based on what? Why? The ETA is a one step/one flip operation which puts you in the the best position for riding up the hill AND leave an optimal 30 mm of travel
Came on, this is a marketing ploy: "linear travel" wow!, "adjustable travel" wow! "you can adjust every 3mm! I realy need that, adjusting every 3 mm!!!
frankly: it is quite disgusting to justify a $700 price tag with gadgets, it is just cosumerism at its worst. |
| Why choose RLC when you can get what you want with an R? | J.S.
Mar 17, 2003 12:26 AM | | Is the price your main issue? Seriously, $700.00 is a drop in the bucket for some of us, and only if you insist on getting the top-of-the-line RLC model for lock-out and an extra compression knob that doesn't do too much. The R model starts at $550, still gets the variable travel, and doesn't have the lock-out since you don't want or need it.
I've seen more specialized devices like my PDA go for $700+, so this fork's price is hardly astonishing. |
| The R "starts" at $465, ask Larry. nm | Tscheezy
Mar 17, 2003 12:40 AM | | |
| Cool... more fork for less $$$ | J.S.
Mar 17, 2003 12:54 AM | | ...I went for the RLC anyway =) |
| Well, to be totally accurate... | Tscheezy
Mar 17, 2003 12:37 AM | | the fork weighs 1800 grams and costs $600, so that is $0.33 per gram, or the same as VanDeKamp's Fish Sticks (hardly caviar, if you've been down the freezer aisle recently).
I don't dispute the obsessive consumer comments, but what do you expect on an "enthusiast's" website? Why irrational enthusiasts, of course! Now Beanie Babies are consumerism at its worst. Biking actually has some lifestyle/health benefiting results. And I can think of WAY more expensive hobbies (can you say "gambling"?).
Personally, I sorta appreciate the advance in suspension marching ever forward. I don't look back on riding a fully rigid bike with any more nostalgia than I devote to 18th century dentistry. ;^)
tscheezy |
| Well said tscheezy! n/m | kneecap
Mar 17, 2003 8:36 AM | | |
| Well, I meant gram savings per dollar | Martino
Mar 17, 2003 10:32 AM | | and it is 200 grams at most ... also ... I thought one of the purpose of this forum was NOT to make us spend as much money as possible on new gadgets but to carefully screen the hype from the substance.
But maybe I am getting this wrong!
anyway enjoy the new toys even if they work just as well as old ones! |
| you've never been to the save some weight forum, eh? nm | dbAbuser
Mar 17, 2003 12:00 PM | | |
| Well, to be totally accurate... | uphiller
Mar 17, 2003 5:50 PM | | maybe i'm barking up the wrong tree by posting this on the suspension board, but i happen to enjoy riding rigid bikes. i do look back with -some- nostalgia on not ever having to do any maintenance on that part of my bike, and i also liked picking lines and riding up steep stuff i can't on a suspended bike. yeah, there's some stuff i can only do suspended, but the only time i'm really glad i have suspension is when i'm on a group ride with other suspended riders. |
| This doesn't even deserve a reply, but what the hell. | Zonic Man
Mar 17, 2003 10:32 AM | | $700/200 grams = 35$/gram more expensive then real caviar
--Math is your friend. So is logic. Try applying both and get back to me.
And I repeat: we are talking minutiae here. 200 grams is utterly completely irrelevant even to racers. Certanly is of no importance whatsever to the trail riders this fork is marketed to... really what difference can it make? That you are 3 calories short ar the end of a 4 hours ride? Once and forever let not be ridiculus about weight 200 grams is less then 0.05% of the total weight of a bike+rider+cloths. Who are we kidding?
--200 grams is hardly insignificant. I AM a racer, as is my fiance, and almost a half pound is a large chunk of change.
The lockout, let's see: the hill is approaching I reach down with my left hand and turn until I go from 125 to 85, then I reach down with my right hand and I lock out the fork. Now I am left with a rigid fork which does not absorbe anything of the trail: great! What an improvement!!
--You're not this clueless, are you? I mean, come on....if you do a LONG climb, then you lower the front end. For example, friday, I climbed National trail (well, some of it) on my hardtail w/ my TALAS set at 85mm. Then I got to the top of telegraph trail, hit the switch, and bam, to 125mm for the long downhill...how cool is that?
Better then an ETA? Based on what? Why? The ETA is a one step/one flip operation which puts you in the the best position for riding up the hill AND leave an optimal 30 mm of travel
--Do you work for marzocchi or are you just a sucker? Marzocchis are tight, no doubt...but get your facts, straight, nate.
Came on, this is a marketing ploy: "linear travel" wow!, "adjustable travel" wow! "you can adjust every 3mm! I realy need that, adjusting every 3 mm!!!
--Uh, no, you don't need the adjustment every 3mm, but it is nice to have just in case. (Case in point, saturday's techy XC ride where I set my fork at 100mm in the front end.) Linear travel IS NOT A MARKETING PLOY...it is first time it has ever been done on a bicycle fork or shock and allows a lightweight air fork to perform like a coil sprung fork.
frankly: it is quite disgusting to justify a $700 price tag with gadgets, it is just cosumerism at its worst.
--What kind of bike do you have, if I may ask? |
| Missing my point | Martino
Mar 17, 2003 6:06 PM | | My point is not "this fork is better then that". The point is that this industry is constantly trying to take advantage of us.
Every year there is either a wonder fork or a bicycle that climbs for you ... and every year you read the "reviews" of enthusiastic people , and worst dealers, that basically REPEAT the manifacturer press release. An example? Simply check the forum for the comments on the 2002 release of the Fox Air: you will find identical words with people swearing that the fork was almost as good as a coil.
How can it be? Bot almost as good, or the Talas one is a bit better then a coil (you know, between almost as good and a bit better there is no much room for hype left !!!)
So relax, I am not attacking the Fox I am just encouraging all of us to be a bit more vigilant and perhaphs a bit less gullable.
PS By the way: stange racer you are using a Talas on your bike |
| Not really a strange racer. | Zonic Man
Mar 17, 2003 6:52 PM | | Seeing as I'm 200 lbs and use disc brakes.
Oh yeah, my STEEL (strange again?) hardtail weighs 23.5 lbs. |
| Missing basic product development... | J.S.
Mar 18, 2003 9:08 AM | | [b] My point is not "this fork is better then that". The point is that this industry is constantly trying to take advantage of us.
Every year there is either a wonder fork or a bicycle that climbs for you ... and every year you read the "reviews" of enthusiastic people , and worst dealers, that basically REPEAT the manifacturer press release.
[/b]
What you've described is known as technology turn-over. Manufacturers cannot start with a "perfect" product already at its design pinnacle and requiring no further development. They start with a prototype, then gradually refine it based on market wants/needs/popularity as well as present available technology. Gaining the needed technology to advance product development requires considerable resources. Unless that product's sales return a decent profit, further development cannot be justified.
Marketting the product is only half the story.
Fox must be doing something right if people are buying its forks after only being in this market segment for a second year... |
| Simple division for the math impaired...... | Ventanarama
Mar 17, 2003 9:03 PM | | If you really want to break it down into numbers then at least try to be accurate. First of all that would be $3.50/g not $35/g. Even the $3.50 figure it totally irrelevant though, you took the "difference" in weight but used the "total" price. The correct figure would be the weight difference (200g) divided by the retail price difference ($180) for $1.11/g. Still pricey, but far from $35/g. Your .05% figure is way off base too. .05% of 225lbs would be 51g.
Do you really believe that most riders consider nearly a 1/2lb of weight to be irrelevant? I couldn't disagree more. From several years in the industry I can tell you with certainty that I get far more calls from people who would consider that relevant than those who consider it irrelevant. Ever look at the weight weenie forum here on mtbr? Hell, even a lot DH racers and freeriders consider 1/2lb to be relevant. I've been getting plenty of calls from DH/FR riders wanting Ti springs for their rear shocks to save 200g of weight. Now I would agree that many people are too concerned about weight, but don't just assume that a majority of people share your opinion.
In regard to the lockout...If you read my comments more closely you'll see that I was talking about the Talas in 85mm setting but NOT locked out. At 85mm the Talas is still going to make the head angle plenty steep for efficient climbing, but is much smoother climbing through technical sections than the stiff travel and very harsh top-out of the ETA. Don't get me wrong, ETA is a nice feature, I use it often on my Z1. The 5" Z1 with ETA engaged climbs better than my 03'Vanilla locked out at full extension but not as good as the Talas in 85mm setting. I've ridden all 3 on the exact same climbs. The ETA is also only useful for climbing, while the adjustable travel on the Talas is more versatile. It baffles me that you think ETA is great but can't see why people would want adjustable travel which serves essentially the same purpose.
Hmmm, so if you owned a business and came out with a new product that had more features and was more expensive for you to produce then you would charge the same for it as your other products with fewer features and lower assembly cost???? Some people consider them useless "gadgets" some people consider them great features, which is the whole point of offering a range of different products at different price points. I guess I fail to see the problem with that.
Larry Mettler
http://www.mtnhighcyclery.com |
| Oh, I see now you get to insults (nm) | Dodo
Mar 18, 2003 7:59 AM | | |
| On spring rate | Sunny
Mar 17, 2003 9:04 AM | | The spring rate actually increases as the travel is reduced. It has to, otherwise the fork would bottom out to easily. The rate is self-adjusted to require about the same force to bottom it out regardless of the travel setting. At least this was what I recall from flipping through the '03 catalog.
Does Fox have a '03 manual for the TALAS? The one I received from the LBS is a '02 version which, of course,has no information on the TALAS. |
| On spring rate | Chris_Stott
Mar 17, 2003 10:10 AM | | I got my new bike with TALAS RLC's this weekend, and I got a Fox forx manual that included info for the entire forx range, including the TALAS.
Not sure about the spring rate:travel ratio point though. I thought the spring rate remained constant no matter what the travel was set to... in that you'd not need as stiff a spring at 85mm as you wouldn't be doing the same sort of drops as you would at 125mm. I'll check when I get home tonight.
Absolutely fantastic forks though... worth $900 (they retail for £600 in the UK!!)? Probably not. But then most of the stuff we buy for our bikes is overpriced... £125 for a Chris King headset... ludicrous, but they are the best, and as long as they are, people will pay top money. |
| That is indeed part of the hype | Martino
Mar 17, 2003 10:39 AM | | I personally use a Marz Z1 2001 with PROGRESSIVE springs because ... it is the set up I prefer (it stiffens up the rate where I need it the most: on large hits or landings and leaves the fork otherwise really supple).
To say that BECAUSE the fork has a linear rate IT IS a great improvement is just marketing. |
| You have set your coil up to act like an air fork... | Tscheezy
Mar 17, 2003 11:15 AM | | while the new Talas is an air fork set up to behave like a coil. I personally prefer a linear ride. When I really slam something, the fork behaves very well all the way to bottomout (and I have a spring rate which makes bottomout quite uncommon), while my old air forks would just dive to mid-travel with little resistance, and then ramp up horribly.
It just depends on what you like. It's all good.
tscheezy |
| rising rate coils not the same as air rate | derby
Mar 17, 2003 1:36 PM | | I can't say with scientific surety if air rising rates are that much different than coil rising rate, but I suspect they are, they sure feel much different.
Rising rate coils are usually stacked lighter and heavier coils, or the same coil wound closely at one end and further apart through most of the spring. Either way the lighter tension and binding of some of the coils earlier than others firms up the travel at a rate slower at first then faster deeper in travel than a linear coil of the same overall fully compressed bottom out weight.
Air shocks virtually never bind except for piston bottomout, and are very difficult to fine tune for topout, brake dive, and bottomout all working well together. Usually, without a very well tuned negative spring, the air ramp up is very deep in travel and becomes very rapid rising near the bottom, compared to the mildly slow rising rates tuned into coils (usually most effectively very high in travel for small bump compliance, but maintaining dive and bottomout mid and deep travel resistance).
Simply put, I think air springs are naturally progressive rising rate (more linear near the top of compression and increasing rising rate as travel deepens). And rising rate tuned coils are usually tuned to be a more digressive rising rate in comparison (a faster rate of rising early in compression digressing into a more linear rate deeper).
- ray |
| Well , not really | Martino
Mar 17, 2003 5:50 PM | | I actually ran a soft spring + a progressive and 55mm or 5 weight oil in the fork. This is the best set up for me: at my weight it gives me 130mm of travel AND provides a slight firming up in case of bit hits. Big hits for me are drops from 3 feets. The comparison with the medium linear spring is hard to detect unless you really push the fork. In normal trail riding they are undistinguishable.
PS The progressive coil is a Marz original part and it is just wund progressively. |
| What is indeed part of the hype? | dbAbuser
Mar 17, 2003 8:26 PM | | None of your anti-techno babble is valid unless you've never read ANYTHING in print about any of your current bike set up, fork included, and ridden everything on the market...
How do you know you haven't been led astray by marketing and consumer hype to believe that your progressive coil is the best thing out?
Can you say hypocrite? And especially bashing a product you've never ridden. I knew that you could... |
| re: TALAS RLC first impression vs. Float RLC | QMrider
Mar 17, 2003 8:39 PM | | My Brother-In-Law just bought a TALAS from L.M. He brought it over to my house for me to drive the star nut in for him. We had a little time to compare this shock with the Float, (*he also has a Float).
I have been riding a Float RLC for the last 15 months. I have set the travel back and forth from 80mm to 100mm several times on 2 different frames, a hardtail and a 4-bar FS. My point: I know this shock very well. I spent a half hour with the TALAS and this is not just a Float with external adjustable travel. The 'linear spring rate' is very pronounced when you have your hands on one right next to a Fox Float. I set up the air pressure on my Float for my weight. My B-I-L is within 5lbs of that and that's where he set up the TALAS. The TALAS feels much more supple for small movement, has an even 'push' feel to it through the middle range and does not have that exponential feeling at the end but I couldn't bottom it out.
In a word: Remarkable!!!
Now I know that my initial testing is subjective to my 'feeling' of this fork but I can honestly say this: The TALAS feels every bit better to me compared to my Float as the Float felt to the last shock I compared it to 15 months ago.
Hey Ventanarama, I need to figure out how to get this in the budget. I will not be waiting until your next batch.
Life is too short to not ride the best.
Just my 2¢... |
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