|   Vanilla 125rlc or Z1 fr sl??? | freakrider
May 21, 2003 6:26 PM | | I was planning on getting a Vanilla 125 for my new 5-Spot, but now I'm thinking about the z1 fr sl. I want to keep the fork around 4.5 pounds.
Weights are about the same and the Z-1 seems to be a burlier fork, but how's the plushness between that and a coil/oil fork like the Vanilla?
I'm not sure, but I don't think that I will use the ECC, I prefer to keep pedaling rather than messing around with lockouts and such.
Thanks. |
| Turners are "designed" around Fox Forx. | Tscheezy
May 21, 2003 7:13 PM | | The HA and SA, as well as BB height #'s are based on the axle to crown measurements on Fox Forx. A Z1 will be almost 20mm taller, so drop the published #'s by a good 0.5-0.75 degrees running a Zoke.
For the simple reason of realizing exactly what Dave had wanted you to experience on his incomparable rides, I say go Fox.
tscheezy |
| Not familiar withECC,but ETA works Fantastic,just flip the lever | jedoaks
May 21, 2003 7:44 PM | | nm |
| My mistake, I get em all mixed up... | freakrider
May 21, 2003 8:33 PM | | ...not sure of anything anymore. |
| Not really, frames are not THAT sensitive to fork length, go Z1 | Martino
May 21, 2003 9:25 PM | | The way you will set up your bike (stem length, your weight, seat position), shock preload and especially fork preload will influence your riding position much more then a crown to axle difference.
The difference between a FOX Vanilla and Z1 SL can be easily be reversed based on set up.
But more importantly, there is no such a thing as THE geometry that works best for EVERY rider weight and size. Frames work equally well with similar forks (so much so that frames are often designed for a fork range, say 80-100), If there was such a thing I am sure the 5-spot would work perfectly with a 4-6" adjustable fork.
But to come back to your question: I am partial to the Z1 SL, it is the sturdiest thing I have ever seen or experienced, you can tune very easily, it has the great Marzocchi feeling, it is reliable like a rock, and has the great ECC5 which will save your butt in many many situations: hard to beat combinations! |
| "not THAT sensitive"- Huh? | Tscheezy
May 21, 2003 11:50 PM | | The Z1 is almost an inch taller. The Fox equipped XCE, for example, handles noticeably better with a 100mm travel fork than a 125mm. And yes, it is VERY noticeable. The difference between a 125mm fork and the equivalent of a "145mm" fork on the 5-Spot may be a little more subtle, but there is no way you could set a Z1 up to approximate the ride height of a Vanilla unless you ran it super soft with too much sag. Nothing against the Z1, I like Zokes, but if you want to be pedantic and end up with Turner's published angles, you pretty much have to go with the Fox. Turner, unlike many manufacturers, is extremely precise and accurate in its published angles (which are based on Fox Forx). A Fox at 125mm with the correct sag will give you a 69 degree HA. The Z1 will give about a 68.25, and a higher ride height if run at its correct sag. That is not a bad thing, just different. I agree that stem length and other factors WOULD play a big role in how the bike feels IF we were talking about different stems etc, but obviously we are talking about a 5-Spot set up with a static parts package, just different forks, so the fork will produce an effect.
tscheezy |
| No, not really | Martino
May 22, 2003 11:28 AM | | There is no such a thing as THE (UNIQUE) CORRECT sag or geometry.
One thing is geometry and set ups ON PAPER, another is what really happens on the trail when all the other factors effecting suspension come into play.
Have you tried to work with a trunnion mount (GT, Cannondale still has it)? It is a very instructive experience. On my GT I can alter the BB height by almost 1.75" and corresponding the head tube angle can go from around 68 to 72 (this is what is workable, you can do more extreme set ups).
Guess what: there is a very wide sweet spot, somewhere around the expected 69-71 degrees. And guess what: if I do a lot of climbing a steeper set up feels a bit better, and if I do a lot of stupid jumps and downhills ... you know where I am going.
TO top it all: there is more variation to be had simply by working on the preload (and rebound!) of the rear shock and even the spacers on the headset.
For a given trunnion post position and preload on the fork, I can change the static angle of the front by almost 1 degree simply going from zero to quite a lot preload (I will not even mention what happens if I go from 650 to 700 pounds rear spring), or assuming a more upright vs more tilted foward front position.
In summary: any 4-6 fork from any manufacturer will work well (geometry wise) on a 5-spot, in the same way that any 3-5 fork will work fine on a Blur etc etc. |
| I already made my point. nm | Tscheezy
May 22, 2003 11:59 AM | | |
| You're right! | Jaybo
May 23, 2003 8:53 AM | | I had an old Jamis Dakar that was "designed" for a 3.5" fork; however, I put a 4" SID 100 on it for fun. It felt different: slowed down steering. However, it rode better with more travel. The Turner is not designed for a Fox fork. That is simply not true. The frame can more then handle a 5" fork with a different ride that I bet many would prefer. It is simply untrue to make a blanket statement that a bike is worse or better with any one fork. A Z1 would rock on a Turner. Now, certainly there are exceptions: a Z1 on a Merlin XLM would suck. Also, a 5" Z1 on a Blur screws the warranty up (but the bike would ride great with it).
Jaybo |
| You dillweeds. | Tscheezy
May 23, 2003 12:24 PM | | I NEVER SAID the 5-Spot would ride better or worse with a Z1, just different. Duh. I said the *XCE* handles noticeably better with a 100mm Fox than a 125mm Fox and that is the GENERAL CONCENSUS AMONG ALMOST ALL XCE OWNERS (please note how Marzocchi was never mentioned in relation to the XCE). Do a search for "xce 125" and see for yourself. I said this *could* translate to the 5-Spot.
And yes, Turner generates their numbers based on the axle to crown measurement of a Fox Forx (the only manufacturer to do this as far as I have heard). If you use a fork with a different axle to crown measurement, it will change your effective angles. Not better, not worse, just different from published #'s, for the pedantic. I didn't say the bike needed to have a Fox to be rideable, only to hit the #'s on the button and handle in the exact way Dave had intended.
Try reading for content next time, and don't put words in my mouth. |
| You're so arrogant! | Jaybo
May 23, 2003 7:48 PM | | You wrote it! I'm not sure what else to say. You think you have the corner on the XCE because you own one. Plus, you disregard others when they happen to have an opinion that is contrary to yours. You may be a nice guy in real life, but on here you are arrogant.
Jaybo |
| What he said was correct. | fonseca
May 23, 2003 10:33 PM | | I see no sign of arrogance in his first two replies, and both you and martino missed the point. The z1 is tall for its travel compared to the fox. Put that fork on and your geometry and handling will be off from the charts at turner. Wether it will negatively affect the ride depends on what you are looking for, but it's definitely important for the original poster to be aware of this. Running the z1 will result in slower handling, almost a full degree slacker, which could really suck or be just what one needs depending on terrain and riding type.
Preload and sag should never be adjusted to compensate for a tall axle to crown measurement, and cockpit setup has nothing to do with this topic. The turner measurements are based on the fox axle to crown height. Freakrider didn't provide enough information about himself for anyone to recommend one fork over the other. If he doesn't ride tight singletrack that would benefit from faster steering, the z1 would probably be fine. |
| re: Vanilla 125rlc or Z1 fr sl??? | J.S.
May 21, 2003 10:56 PM | | How would you describe your riding style? If it's agressive borderline FR, go Z1 -- it is a beefier fork made to take more abuse. If you tend to go more moderate XC, you could shed minor weight by going Vanilla. My understanding is that both forks are pretty plush, though the Vanilla will be more supple on small bumps since it uses coil. You can't go wrong either way. |
| I'm a little bit country, I'm a little bit rock n roll... | freakrider
May 22, 2003 8:41 AM | | The vanilla is my first choice because of the fact that they are so nice and that the five was designed around that fork. That is still the direction I'm leaning.
I just saw one of the Z1 sl's yesterday and it made me think wow! It was nice. The full coil z1 is nice too, but you start to pick up some weight there. Since I have to ride up, I don't want to get too heavy up front.
I would consider myself among the emerging marketing angle known as "trail riders." I just ride, grind up, hammer over and enjoy the result of my work by sailing down the mountains. I usually don't pedal much on the downhills, at 195 gravity usually gets me going fast enough.
I don't search for air, I just catch some at certain points on the trails. Same for drops, I just do em when encountered on the trail. I'm not riding off my roof or anything like that.
I live in Alaska, lots of roots, rocks that are usually more rounded than sharp, hardpack that's usually a little muddy in the low spots and most rides usually have long sustained climbs and DH along with lots of shorter, steep climbs.
I just ride. But I've crashed enough to know recovering sucks more than riding. I'm getting the ride I've always wanted, a Turner. and I want ot get the fork right. Thanks for the advice. |
| Similar riding here... | J.S.
May 22, 2003 9:02 AM | | I ride in a similar fassion and weight 190-195lbs as well (hoping to lose more flab). I ride moderate XC with occasional air and small drops. My current bike is a Truth with a Fox TALAS RLC (100mm mode), almost 2 months old.
Good luck with your 5-spot build... I'm sure it'll be very nice once complete. |
| I don't think you can go wrong either way, but... | casey
May 22, 2003 11:44 AM | | I put a Z1 SL on my titus Moto-lite early this season and it is truly amazing. I went from a 2000 Z1 CR (coil) fork and the new SL is sooooooo much more rigid and tunable. My buddy likes it so much he axed his Vanilla and replaced it with the SL. Good luck. |
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