|   5th Element Air/Swinger/AVA | phantomtracer
Jul 31, 2003 5:35 AM | | Has anyone tested these shocks on an Intense Tracer or any Horst Link Bike? I was thinking of upgrading my current Fox Float RL(Tracer), as its two years old and seems to be loosing its compression dampining. Any insight as to why the current shocks don't have compression dampening adjustment? How much small bump compliance do you loose with the platform shocks? |
| re: 5th Element Air/Swinger/AVA | bmadau
Jul 31, 2003 6:05 AM | | The 5th element and Swinger have compression adjustments. That would be the IFP air pressure. And if you get a swinger 4 way, you also get a volume adjuster as well. The 5th air can have the volume (end of stroke compression damping ramp up) adjusted at a qualified service center, although not to the degree of adjustment a 4 way swinger might. It's the price you pay to make a light product, you have to sacrifice some bells and whistles.
The small bump ride depends on the IFP pressure. In general, use as little pressure as you can, or just where the bobbing stops, and you'll be ok. If you've got a good bike that pedals well out of the box, the better off you'll be. If your bike bobs like hell with a standard shock, and needs tons of IFP pressure to make it pedal nice, then you may loose some small bump sensitivity. The cure to that though, is just to haul ass and make all the bumps "big".. :) |
| re: 5th Element Air/Swinger/AVA | Jrm
Jul 31, 2003 7:08 AM | | On my tracer i went from a Float RC to a Vanilla R coil over which was a great upgrade as others on this board will tell you.
I'd go with the AVA because it will replicate the linear spring of a coil over thebest without the weight penalty. But it has preset compression depending on the air volume setting.
A four bar designed suspension doenst need a SPV shock to perform any better then it already does. |
| JRM, a spv shock will help any design, including 4 bar... | damion
Jul 31, 2003 8:40 AM | | I read a test of a Switchblade ( I think) that came with a Float RL and a 5th Element air. The bike was awesome with the RL, but way better with the 5th. It's stable riding platform was/is the ticket with any design. |
| My first hand experience | Jrm
Jul 31, 2003 11:43 AM | | In comparing a SPV shock to a AVA on a fully active suspension design makes me think otherwise. So in short its not the shock its the shocks application. Not to mention personal preference. |
| compared to Float, no loss in small bump action with Romic | derby
Jul 31, 2003 11:11 AM | | I tested a Romic on my Tracer for a day and it produced the same ride (or could be adjusted to be firmer) than my stock Float RL. If you want a firmer ride than the Float in good condition can produce the Romic or other platform damped shocks would be the way to go.
I bought at Vanilla-R, which added about 1/4 pound to my bike due to the steel spring, but the small bump performance and deep travel gain was improved noticeably, with very little increase in bob.
Get a platform shock for adjusting increased firmness from the stock Float-RL, else stay with Float, and maybe get an AVA sleeve for the Float if you don't get full deep travel. For increased small bump "buttery" compliance and even better traction, get a Vanilla-R for the Tracer.
- ray |
| You didn't like the Romic on your Tracer? | Mario
Jul 31, 2003 12:08 PM | | You mention trying the Romic but went to the Vanilla R. Was it a question of price or was the Romic not as nice somehow? Was it possible to set the Romic so that it is almost NOT a platform when your going downhill and turning the nob(s) a bit when you're going uphill?
Thanks a lot. |
| not for my interest | derby
Jul 31, 2003 4:09 PM | | I was looking for better bump compliance than my Float-RL and more usable travel (my Float never used the last 3/8th's inch of shock stroke with 1 inch of sag). The Romic got a little more travel, but the bottomout was more harsh. And it had about the same small bump compliance as my Float. So I tried the Vanilla-R and like the effects much better, and the Fox bottom out bumper is more progressive than the Romic's was then, almost a year and a half ago. Harder more aggressive riders than me might prefer the Romic ride better. If the Fox cost more than the Romic I would still have bought the Fox for my interests.
I think the geometry of the Tracer Horst linkage path effects has enough pedaling stable platform effect without the addition of platform damping. I found the best performance on the Tracer with the Romic when the compression knob was fully open, even the first click of compression was noticeably (to me) less compliant on the Romic than the Float. But even though it is coil it has more compression resisting damping initially than the Vanilla-R that can't be custom valued to be any faster.
I don't find the Tracer to bob enough to feel unstable when pedaling, it bob's even less when the going gets steeper and when standing and pedaling hard. Other's find the small amount of bob irritating enough to slow bob compression down more with a platform shock, than the link geometry with fast compression damping does already. I noticed the loss of bump compliance more than any very minor stability gain the Romic produced. Other's may not notice the compliance loss as much as me.
- ray |
| Thanks ray, very good comments... | Mario
Aug 1, 2003 8:01 AM | | Quite interesting to see different point of view on technology, specially when the comments are brought up very objectively like yours.
Bottom line it will be interesting to see what Intense, Spec and Titus do with their horst bikes in 04, will they be tempted to jump on the stable platform path or stay away from it because their suspension doesn't necessarily need it...
Thanks again |
| Fox going platform compression in '04 | derby
Aug 1, 2003 12:36 PM | | I suspect everyone will jump on the platform shock bandwagon in '04, to avoid having to explain why not.
All the Float and Vanilla models are going to the stepped up compression platform style in '04 according to their web site and customer support when I asked recently.
Specialized FSR's could use stability help from platform rear shocks because they aren't as platform in axle path geometry as an original AMP designed by Horst, or copied and reinforced with better stiffness by Titus and Turner, and exaggerated a little more platform by Intense, and extremely exaggurated by Giant.
For pedaling the hydro mechanics of platform damping is closely the equivalent of Horst link mechanical effect to the overall suspension. The problem I see is the damping platform effect is constant no mater how hard or softly you pedal, and remains platform while coasting and braking, unlike a Horst link platform which increases or relaxes with pedal tension and gear selection, and relaxes completely off when coasting and braking. But few riders would notice the difference, especially without testing on the same bike like I did.
For best rear braking, monopivot or compressing tension floating brakes will be more bump traction compliant with platform dampers. I just read that the pro Santa Cruz V10 VPP riders have removed the floating brakes, since the fine tuning of traction wasn't worth the 3/4 pound weight (VPP's have compressive tension in the rear suspension while braking).
So the overall gains from using platform dampers in most designs will nearly match the pinnacle of non-platform suspension design unmatched overall so far since the Horst link. And longer travel Horst links will gain from platform damping to stay ahead of the others (with possibly VPP and DW links also a step or two above the others in quality too).
- ray |
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