|   Fox forx - oil vs. grease.... | DGC
Jan 12, 2004 12:07 PM | | This is a post of a word to the wise hopefully......
I see many hear have been using grease below the seals, sometimes to help damn up an oil leak, sometimes to lube the seals. Just turn your bike upside down and let the oil get up to the seals for lube. If you have leaking seals, replace them with Enduro seals when they come out soon or OE seals, but fix it correctly.
My suggestion is to never put grease below the seals.
I just did a rebuild on a 2003 Float RLC where what oil was in the fork came out in clumps. There was a massive mess of grease clumps everywhere, including in the blow off adjuster valve, compression shims area, inside the cartridge including the rebound and high speed valve etc. Below the seals was a mess of grease. 2 full hours of tearing every single small part down and cleaning and finally putting back together. If your going to lift the seals and put lube in there, run ONLY fork oil, preferably Fox, Spectro or similar. I wish I had taken a picture of this mess for you all to see.
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| Yikes... | The Squeaky Wheel
Jan 12, 2004 4:21 PM | | sounds sloppy. There has been a lot of chatter about using grease under those seals. In fact, a rep from Fox told me himself that it was OK to use Slick Honey. Thankfully I've never had to try it and don't think I'll be experimenting in the future.
As always, thanks for the insight.
Squeak |
| Isn't grease soluble in oil? | SDizzle
Jan 12, 2004 5:21 PM | | I would have thought that if the grease didn't stay trapped between the wipers and the seals, and it probably would with the Enduro combo, that it would have easily dissolved in the oil. Still sounds yucky. |
| Isn't grease soluble in oil? | DGC
Jan 12, 2004 5:39 PM | | Might be soluable, but I would think it depends on what kind of grease and whats in it. I would say from the looks of it, he used way, way too much grease. So maybe enough of it and it just stayed as grey/black sludge......dunno but it was a mess. I have always used oil on mine and preach it to customers since thats whats inside the fork. I think some companies try to find alternatives to tell people since companies know there are some who will try to use what ever is around the house on their $600 fork instead of buying a $20 of the right stuff.
Interesting. |
| I take it your customer didn't use Slick Honey | Mikey
Jan 12, 2004 6:20 PM | | Fox says that they use Slick Honey under the seals on new forks direct from the factory, so it shouldn't be a problem. Of course if someone puts in a whole tube of it, or uses another type of grease, then that's a different story, and probably what you're looking at. Have you ever seen a problem where Slick Honey (for sure) was used? |
| I take it your customer didn't use Slick Honey | DGC
Jan 12, 2004 9:22 PM | | I think it was slick honey-looked and seemed like it all over the foam rings and everywhere around the rings, he finally later today admitted to the grease after he tried hard for a warranty on the leaking seals with us and we denied him. He said he thought it was Slick Honey-though not totally sure, he did say he used a lot of it often. |
| Just as I suspected, always better to use grease only in non oil bath... | Bikeless Rider
Jan 12, 2004 8:16 PM | | ...forks, but while you're at it Dave, you might want to remind the Vanilla owners that you chose to go with a wiser alternative to the innertube rubber you installed to quiet it. |
| I did once on the Fox fork, but here/now is another opportunity | DGC
Jan 12, 2004 9:33 PM | | I believe I did maybe in a different post or something (I cant remember that far back!!!) mention that to quiet the travel spacers and spring noise was to take a Fox spring, one your not using like the pile of soft purple that most shops have, and slip off the plastic heat shrink from the middle of the spring. Then with some work you will be able to get both travel spacers into this wrapper and still have a little left to put the main spring end into so you basically have a 1 piece main sprin/travel spacer unit. The wrapper obviously quiets the spring and travel spacer from knocking the inside upper leg.
I have yet to find anywhere locally who can sell me heat shrink wrap to do the job more pro and correctly. I think what post I mentioned this in a few said to try electrical store, hardware stores etc. been at that and no luck locallly.
anyways BR, thanks for the reminder. |
| That's probably going to take a large electrical supply store... | Bikeless Rider
Jan 13, 2004 1:13 AM | | ...that would likely be located in a big city where lots of commercial electrical contractors are. We've got a few like that here in Seattle, but as close as you are to Southern Cal, you'd probably have more choices there. Probably not the best time of year for you to be able to research it though with all the winter overhauls you're likely doing. No doub't donning the nitrile gloves quite often? |
| read my response to Jaybo | DGC
Jan 15, 2004 12:16 AM | | Im dropping the shrink wrap idea. |
| Depends on where the grease goes. Fox greases the them after all | Tscheezy
Jan 12, 2004 10:40 PM | | Fox seals come with grease in them. There is an upper lip which acts as an external scraper and an inner lip which points down towards the sponge to keep oil in. Between the two is a hidden recess which has grease in it, and a safe spot to re-grease in order to stanch a leak. Gooping the sponge well full of grease is not a great idea under any circumstances though. The problem is that you have to pull the seals totally off to access the well.
tscheezy |
| no grease=no issues with sludge | DGC
Jan 13, 2004 12:08 AM | | Tscheezy-ummmm, well since you have not seen this fork heres the discription:
grease chucks and sludge everywhere.
All throughout the stancions heavily coated, lower legs heavily coated, compression assembly piston and shims, damper rod, rebound assembly piston and shims, internal and external cartridge body walls-real ugly, bottom of cartridge blow off adjuster assembly and shims, main spring side all over the place even more so without enough oil to dissipate some of it. Thats obviously someones fork who didnt have a clue and went too far with grease. Grease can also effect the many small o-rings inside the Fox fork designed for oil.
The grease found stock in Fox seals, stays there, it wont really go anywhere it is sticky enough/solid enough grease-it wont run, except for the very small amount that initially hits the stancion legs when brand new, the rest just stays in that little pocket. The fix for leaking seals is new seals, and not trying to damn it up with grease, even though that might work sometimes its just not the best idea, an oil leak will also draw more dirt inside the fork vs. good condition non leaking seals. The Fox seals are Rock Shox Boxxer seals, except with a slightly longer inner area between upper scraper and lower oil lip that contacts the stancions, same exact dust seal otherwise, they fit/slide on the stancion exactly the same. Enough problems exist with Boxxer OE seals to show a pattern and make one think.......
Wait til the Enduro seal version is out. Seals are cheap vs. the fork price. The Enduro test seals I set up on my fork and am currently running are working better than OE Fox seals ever did for me, and the production version will be buffed out better than my tester set up.
Grease is for dry forks, oil is for oil bath/open damper designed forks. I dont agree with using any grease on a Fox fork or a Marzocchi fork, the Marzocchi oil seal works well enough to keep grease from getting below pretty well but still not 100%. Turn your bike upside down for awhile and oil will make its way to the upper bushings and seals, flip back over, go ride. Remember back in 2002 when I was saying here to run more oil in the Fox main spring side? Some of that reason was to quiet bushings noise/clack, the rest of the reason was to get lube all the way up top.
Anyways, thats my .02 cents for the night. |
| so...if your bike sits unused for any length of time... | mrdy
Jan 13, 2004 4:31 AM | | like mine is now, what with the weather being like it is, a simple
bit of preventive maintenance would be to flip my bike upside down
occasionally to keep the upper stantions and seals lubed so that
they don't dry out.
thanks
michael |
| Yes, store it upside down or turn it upside down before your | Tscheezy
Jan 13, 2004 8:45 AM | | first ride for an hour or so.
tscheezy
PS, DGC, I just put new wipers on. I will switch to Enduros some day too. |
| why enduros? | The Squeaky Wheel
Jan 13, 2004 9:13 AM | | What's the advantage to the enduro wipers over the stock Fox?
Squeak |
| why enduros? | chris2fur
Jan 13, 2004 9:34 AM | | 2-piece design. Separate low-stiction U-cup oil seal below wiper (this is to address the oil weeping that has plagued many Fox owners). Wiper is polyurethane scraper that keeps all the yuck out and is extremely durable. Oil sponge will no longer be used. With the grooved bushings, and, as DGC mentioned, inverting the fork for a couple of minutes before a ride (in addition to the previously advised increase of recommended oil in the left leg--Fox recommends 30cc, but I think the consensus here is about 50-60cc), the loss of the sponge will not be an issue (based on tests, not speculation). As always, I recommend lubing the exposed stanchions before a ride (let's save the debate of what to lube stanchions with for another day...) Look for the perfected kit in about 3 weeks.
-Chris
http://www.enduroforkseals.com |
| Hey you--any word on the 32 mm Zoke kits? -nm- | SDizzle
Jan 13, 2004 5:18 PM | | |
| Who, me? Should be any time in the next two weeks, but.... | chris2fur
Jan 14, 2004 6:25 AM | | Based on past experience, I would not bet any money on the projections that I'm given... Thanks for your patience.
-Chris
http://www.enduroforkseals.com |
| Interesting information....some questions. | Jaybo
Jan 14, 2004 9:30 PM | | I have a 2002 Switchblade with a 2002 Fox Vanilla R. I have dealt with the dreaded Fox clunk on this fork (despite the fork being sent back to Fox for repair). So, now, I'm considering either upgrading to a 2003 Fox Vanilla or 2003 Marzocchi Marathon S. However, that said, could I send this fork to you for an upgrade and travel extension to 110mm? Can you do this fairly cheap or would I be better off buying a fork from you guys?
Thanks,
Jaybo |
| Interesting information....some questions. | DGC
Jan 14, 2004 10:50 PM | | The clunk is no different in either year fork. Its all the same parts except for the damping changes, lighter compression, which has nothing to do with the clunking. Weather you have noise or not has nothing to do with the year model. At one time, I had a little noise in mine, changed from the firm spring to the medium, the clunk went away, even without my spring shrink wrap mod on the spacers. Its just the nature and way the springs and travel spacers come together, and plunger rod are tightened.
I am also in the middle of a permanent upgrade to the spring/spacers problem that will eliminate the noise coming from there. The shrink wrap will be gone once this is in place. The plunger rod mod might not be necessary once I have this project done.
The Vanilla can be changed to 110mm triming the travel spacers or using PVC piping, but the spring rate will change, all the Fox springs are based on travel of 80, 100, or 125. 105mm travel is close enough to the 100 that the spring rate change usually is not enough to be a problem, but depends a little on where you are in spring rate now. The Marzocchi Marathon is not perfect either. I dont like the way the cartridges tighten down and are really stubborn to get ligned up straight-which creates binding. But, you can have a 120mm travel Marzocchi.
I would love to have my 2002 Z-1 back tho.....
Call us (123bikes) and see what we can do the 04 Vanilla R for Jaybo. Right now I am at home and dont remember the exact prices we are at, so call me and I will tell you what i can do on prices for a fork or the upgrade cartridge for your 2002. The 04 just gets the hollowed crown said to be slightly stiffer/stronger and you start out with a new fork and warranty. I am also going a step further in tuning with mods to the compression piston and the rebound piston. |
| I wonder why no one has mentioned Prep-M? | Bikezilla
Jan 13, 2004 10:57 AM | | Isn't that designed specifically to put inside forks?
I was always leery about the advice of putting grease in the fork. Seems to me if a chunk gets to the dampers it could easily block a hole.
I like the advice about inverting the fork or bike once in a while just to get oil in the upper parts, but it seems to me that with the fast motion that comes with riding, the oil is going to get forced up there anyway.
In my vastly limited experience, (one Z1 & one MX-Comp)I've found that lubing the stanchions with Pedro's syn lube (the wet ride stuff) and working it into the fork (Bouncing) really helped a lot. Or at least until the fork got properly broken in.
-Bikezilla |
| I wonder why no one has mentioned Prep-M? | DGC
Jan 13, 2004 12:03 PM | | It is ok in forks, dry forks. Prep M has also changed a bit over a few years, color, feel etc. Still, I preach oil in oil forks. I have often sold a small bottle of fork oil to the specific fork a customer is buying, using like a small Hayes sized baby bottle. Its enough to lube the legs a good long time. |
| I was just going to say that... | Ricko
Jan 14, 2004 9:13 AM | | I got a new set of seals from Fox and the internal recess was greased...that's where I got the idea.
It sounds like DGC's customer went berzerk with the grease...like Bryl (sp?) Cream...a little dab'l do ya. |
| Moral of the story... | Homebrew
Jan 13, 2004 6:12 AM | | Don't be a moron. A little Slick Honey under the seals isn't going to hurt anything though. |
| True open bath forks vrs not | Jm.
Jan 13, 2004 5:10 PM | | the true open bath forks, Fox, Marzocchi, RS Boxxer and a few others here and there, are forks that you should basically NEVER put grease in. Now that said, a light coating, and I mean pretty light, on the seals before you put everything back together, is not going to hurt anything, but some people don't really have a good conception of what a "light" coating would be. You don't need any gobs of grease, you don't even need "visable" grease really, just take a little on your finger and rub it on the seal, chances are if you spread it evenly enough you really won't even be able to tell you put it on there, but that is about the only thing that you should ever do grease-wise with these forks.
On the other hand, there's a lot of semi-bath forks out there now, the rock shoxs that have a few ccs of oil in the bottom, the newer manitou forks with the "evil genius" seals on them, these forks are kind of in the middle, they got oil in them, but putting some grease in there isn't going to mess them up much either, obviously a lot of grease is going to be bad, but as far as a negative effect on the damping, there is none.
Then there's the "dry" forks, again a lot of manitous are like this, as well as some rockshox forks. These need copious amounts of grease in them, and have to be regreased frequently. They also wear out their bushings most frequently, no surprise of course. These are the forks that you put lots of grease in.
If you have a Manitou or Marzocchi, chances are you'll never take it apart to the point where you can even access the seals, the only reason for doing so would be if you blew the seals up, and again in that case a little film of grease might be helpfull, but for the other 99% of people out there, just change the oil, greasing does nothing positive to these forks, and it kills the damping(and will kill the damping parts). A little tri-flow teflon lube is ok to put on the seals externally, but open bath forks use oil to lubricate the bushings and parts, not grease. |
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