|   More Food/diet stuff | MAII
Mar 11, 2002 7:23 AM | | for those of you who have been asking about losing weight and healthy diet etc...here is something interesting to read.
http://forums.consumerreview.com/crforum?14@@.ef6abd3/8 |
| re: More Food/diet stuff | Patchito
Mar 11, 2002 8:25 AM | | It's a great read, though I would take issue with her a little on her slam of Sear's zone diet as a "fad". He actually makes nearly the same arguments as Beth does, even citing the ancient Egyptian example of how a grain based diet lead to heart disease even way back then. The reason I respect Sears, is not only because of the logical arguments he makes, but the commonsense approach to the application of dietary routines - meaning, moderation is the key. He lets me have a little mayo with my tuna salad.
Subsequent "dieticians" have distorted his original thesis to the point where Adkins now proscribes carrots and orange juice, we have all protein/no carb bars at the local 7-11, and, of course, the "pork rind diet"...I kid you not. Sears was the first to raise the issue of the glycemic indices of food, or at least the first who was widely read. I don't follow the Zone to a tee, but it changed how I look at diet. |
| re: More Food/diet stuff | Huh...?
Mar 11, 2002 5:56 PM | | Can I still order a double quarter pounder with cheese for lunch? |
| Think..... | MAII
Mar 12, 2002 4:26 AM | | think about that guy who always passes you on that Sat ride/race. think about how much you'd like to stay ahead of him...Do you still want the cheeseburger? If so then have it but if you'd like to get a result..think about it..which is more important to you...beating the rival rider or 3or so brief minutes of temporary satisfaction. |
| Think..... | Jwag
Mar 12, 2002 10:09 AM | | My response was supposed to be somwhat sarcastic. My point being, don't get too wrapped up in this. Does anyone really think a cheesburger now and then will have any result on your fitness? Even Lemond after winning the tour admitted to eating Big Macs now and again. |
| Gotta look out for that Jwag guy... | Patchito
Mar 12, 2002 4:23 PM | | Sure Jwag, you can go ahead and eat that Double Double with cheese and grilled onions. Just make sure you chew an extra handful of those magic supplements you've got spilled all over the floor of your car. |
| Gotta look out for that Jwag guy... | Jwag
Mar 12, 2002 5:08 PM | | Hey...No harm no foul!!! |
| LOL..just kiddin' | Patchito
Mar 12, 2002 7:05 PM | | Yeah sure, Lemond used to brag about eating Big Macs and prime rib during his riding days, but have you seen him lately? He's porked up pretty good. He's right up there with Bob Roll in the "man, you've let yourself go!" category.
What's your riding schedule like this week? I'm a little burnt and need an external motivator. |
| This week | Jwag
Mar 12, 2002 10:01 PM | | Rode Aliso Sat, SJT Sunday, Just finished riding up to Old Camp. Was planning on possibly Aliso tomorrow and then off Thursday and Friday. Am a little concerned however, I am riding pretty well, but my heart rate during SJT and tonight never made it to 170... |
| Hey.... | MAII
Mar 13, 2002 4:34 AM | | If I won the Tour De Femini (However it's spelled..and it's basically the female racers equivilent of Tour De France )I eat a freaking cheeseburger too ( and I'm a vegan!)!!! |
| Think..... | Choda
Mar 25, 2002 9:25 PM | | Beating the rival or 3 minutes of self-satisfaction. Aren't these one and the same? The other 90% of the american population would probably agree with me as the eat burgers and smoke cigarettes. It's all just different means to the same ends....... |
| re: More Food/diet stuff | greg
Mar 11, 2002 9:28 AM | | Hey MAII how is the training coming?
Greg |
| Training | MAII
Mar 12, 2002 4:23 AM | | It's going very slowly compared to past years (I am just starting base2 wk 1...no high intensity training at all for another 7 weeks). I am not planning to peak until mid summer..hence I will get my butt kicked in all the early season races, but hopefully be able to get a better final peak for cyclocross. Provided of course that I can stay out of a body cast this season...ha ha!
Going to Wells this weekend?
MA |
| Training | greg
Mar 12, 2002 6:40 AM | | no racing for a while for me
I got pretty burned out last year and the results showed it.
Plus Kelli and I bought a house in January and I spent most of Feb working on it so I am very early in the program. I am planning on the Watershed Wahoo in may - it is a damned road race anyhoo and some crits but peaks will be late in the year - (green mountain stage race)
Greg |
| Training | alittle
Mar 12, 2002 11:40 AM | | I am fairly new to training on the bike (mostly a long distance runner) but I saw that you said you were at "base2, week 1". Can you give me a general idea of what that means and your training schedule, weekly distance I should shoot for, etc. I need all the help I can get. Maybe you know a good book or other resource for training. |
| Actually.... | MAII
Mar 13, 2002 4:42 AM | | the MTB training bible is excellent ( so is the cyclist training bible the roadie version )I trained myself for a few years using modifications of what Friel suggests and I had pretty good results (I had only been riding a mtb 6months did my first race as a Sport and moved up to Expert within 2 years)
HOWEVER, I disagree with some of Friel's philosophies. I do actually coach a few people using a modified Friel approach. However, I do not coach myself ( that just doesn't work for many reasons) I now work with a Cycle-Smart coach. I am impressed with the program so far
(I'll let you know how impressed after I start racing ) What I like best is I am doing WAY less hrs. They have a website if your interested in checking it out www.cycle-smart.com. |
| Actually.... | greg
Mar 14, 2002 5:59 AM | | are you working with adam?
just curious
Greg |
| Actually.... | MAII
Mar 14, 2002 7:19 AM | | No, I am working with John Verheul. |
| fabulous thread - lots of good info there. bravo roadies! (nm) | up_hiller
Mar 11, 2002 11:31 AM | | |
| re: More Food/diet stuff | MTBDOC
Mar 12, 2002 5:48 AM | | Egads, what a lot of crap:
i Sugar, in ANY form is proven to affect the brain receptors in the same patterns as an opiate, and the base chemical structure for sugar is. morphine!
WHERE DO PEOPLE COME UP WITH THIS STUFF??? That is simply NOT TRUE! Now having said that, there are some reasonable elements in that diatribe, but we are discussing issues as (at least for many/most? of us) serious athletes who are training extensively. Expert and above level racers need a substantial level of carbohydrate to generate power at the level and duration required in a (2+ hr) race. The recent trend towards recovery drinks dictate 100+ g of high glycemic carbs and some protein immediately after hard efforts.
What is being ignored in blanket statements as the link provides is
b individual differences!
For example, I do best racing on a large bowl of oatmeal (low glycemic) which is flavored with raisins, maple syrup, and walnuts. The raisins and syrup are high glycemic, and calculating actual grams in my concoction reveals a roughly even mix between high and low glycemic carbs. There has been fairly well designed research that showed no significant difference between high and low glycemic pre-race meals. That does NOT mean there is no difference for a given individual, only that the differences disappear when applied to a group.
There are people who swear they can compete on a "zone diet." I gave this a go back in the mid 90's when it came out and couldn't ride hard with that little carb in my diet. Now, in the pre-season, particularly in my high volume phase (when I'm invariably burning off 15+ lbs of excess produced by the Thanksgiving-Christmas indulgence), I do limit carbs, particularly late in the day. Now that I am doing a great deal of intensity (intervals about 4 x per week), I have to keep enough carbs in my system to complete the workouts.
i PLEASE
by wary of reading things written by people who claim to have discovered "the truth" about diet or training. If you go to the primary sources, the research just isn't there to support most of this stuff. I have studied this stuff for more than 20 years, and have worked with one of the top exercise physiologists in the country for the past 4+ years. We have tried to collect any REAL research available and apply it. So much of what is distributed through the 'net just has no factual basis.
b MORPHINE!
come on... |
| re: More Food/diet stuff | madchemist
Mar 12, 2002 6:02 AM | | The Mtbdoc is correct !!!
..the structure of morphine and sugar are not alike
and sugar does not interact with the opiate receptor. |
| You are clearly nuts! | MAII
Mar 13, 2002 4:49 AM | | Intervals 4X a week...yikes : )
Seriously morphnelike or not ...carbs are death to my racing! I TRY to stay away from them or I turn into a very fat, slow slug...like you said different bodies different reactions. I do use carb drinks while racing and pretty much eat "unrestrained" the meal following hard training or racing but REALLY need to stay away from them otherwise.
Those 15 holiday season pound are a !@#$% to lose I know I am still working on it! |
| Got to work HARD to get FAST! | MTBDOC
Mar 13, 2002 10:26 AM | | I hear you! When I review my training schedule with people they generally don't believe it. As a 45 y/o expert I work harder than most 20 y/o's. You have seen some of the stuff I have posted in years past (I disappear and reappear from this forum depending on my free time for posting!); I think most racers don't do enough hard work. Mountain bike racing is about power production ABOVE lactate threshold. Simply doing intervals 10-20% above LT for several minutes trains your muscles to do this in a race. As an example, last week I did 3 days in a row of intervals (decreasing duration, increasing power); kind of whupped the next few days!).
As for dietary issues, the more training that you do above threshold, the more carbohydrate supply you need as you CANNOT use an appreciable amount of fat...yeah, yeah, I know the research on this. One CAN use a bit of fat. I cannot fathom people competing in a 2+ hr MTB race and drinking water without any supplemental carbs. Again the issue is finding out what works for an individual. But this is not just by feel, but by measurable factors: power output, TT speed, etc.
I DO envy the folks that "just get out and ride." This am doing 3 min on, 3 min off intervals, I found myself questioning (a frequent occurence during the pain!) WHY don't I just race "recreationally?" This will be my 10th season racing, and I keep thinking I'm getting too old for this. Then I look at a guy named Jeep who is 57 this year and still a competitive racer; 2 of the last 3 national champs in the 45 y/o age group are guys I race at least once a month. Guess I'm afraid to give ground...keep at it! |
| One more thing | MTBDOC
Mar 13, 2002 10:29 AM | | I see you gave a plug to your coach. Although I coach others, I have been working with Dave Morris for years and he is for real! Far more intensity than Friel recommends; he's taken a marginal endurance athlete and turned me into a national age group contender. When I gets his website up, I'll post a link. |
| Want to know more... | Kleinadian
Mar 13, 2002 10:56 AM | | I am interested to know more about your training MTBDoc. At what stage (using Friel's stages of Base 1, Base 2, Base 3, Build 1 & Build 2) are you doing all that anerobic training? Do you still do the Base 1-3 stages at mostly the aerobic level?
btw, I agree 100% with using carbs to race. My metabolism dictates that I NEED carbs if the race is over 1 hour. Diet is a huge issue for me even for C level races. I need to plan my whole day around what I eat before a race since I race at 6pm on workdays and that time of day I'm useless (need a big meal) |
| Definitely post the link..... | MAII
Mar 14, 2002 7:23 AM | | when it comes to this sort of information I am like a sponge. also if you don't mind send me your e-mail addy...I have some questions about age & recovery, intensity training and becomeing a national champ : ) |
| Training principles | MTBDOC
Mar 14, 2002 1:41 PM | | First, I was in too big a hurry with my last post. Dave Morris is putting up his website, not me (inadvertantly said "I").
Okay, on to training. For several years I tried to do the old Friel thing, and looked for support in the ex phys research to support it. There really isn't any. Let me briefly describe torture with the Marquis de Dave...
Starting after the end of the season (for me, early November), I spend about 3-4 weeks doing transitional full body weight training with gradually increasing reps, sets, and weight. Then (and this is Dave's protocol; a few years ago Carmichael posted it on on his training site without giving credit) a six-week period of specialized weight work: 2 weeks hypertrophy, 2 weeks max strength (neuromuscular adaptation), and 2 weeks power (light weights 5-10 reps at HIGH SPEED). Sprinkled into this is some specific riding: it may include 15 sec max power intervals; a bit of endurance, or something else.
Next comes endurance block (usually coming in Jan to early Feb) which consists of increasing volume over a 4 week period. Long Sat, long Sun, 1-2 hrs Mon, usually followed by some short, high intensity efforts on Monday (when I'm already whupped from 4-5 hrs Sat, 3-4 hrs sun). Usually rest for a day or two, and then some volume and short intensity on Thursday. Repeat over a 4 week period with gradually increasing volume, perhaps to 5-4-3 hrs Sat-Sun-Mon.
b THAT'S
how I get the 15+ holiday lbs off!!!
Next (and this is where I've been for the past 3 weeks) 1 to 4 min intervals, usually 1:1 work to recovery periods. Dave uses interval in 2-3 day blocks, usually with 2 days rest in between. Occasionally he'll throw in a long ride (I do 3 hrs tomorrow after doing 3 min intervals yesterday and 1 min int's today).
I will start racing in a week. First serious race is late April (Knobscorcher AMBC; MY turn to win!); Big Bear is 3 weeks after that. My focus this year will be nationals. August gets interesting with Durango the first weekend, Mt Snow the third weekend, and Master's Worlds the 5th (Labor Day) weekend. Throughout this I will continue to do a level of intensity as well.
Dave's genius is taking the REAL research literature and applying it to cycling. He is NOT a former pro, but a research geek (and sometime recreational racer). He has worked with REAL racers (Danny Pate, Michael Creed, Mari Holden, etc), not just over the hill wannabes like me. I have hooked a several other racers up with him, all of whom have been extremely pleased. The folks I work with, I apply what I have learned from him and throw in some of my own experience and studies. I find it funny that people will think nothing of dropping $2000 on a new frame but NEVER consider spending that on coaching. The other thing I find funny is the number of racers with no REAL knowledge (except "I was/am REAL fast, Listen to me!") who have big followings. If you really believe that Chris Carmichael has ANYTHING to do with Lance's horsepower, I have some lovely waterfront property I'd like to sell you. If a racer has never followed any kind of a structured plan, then CTS or similar will likely be of benefit. From that standpoint, I think Friel has something to offer. What gets me is most of what is passed on is cycling mythology. I used to see/hear "gym myths" which basically said that the biggest guy OBVIOUSLY knew the most!!! |
| Thanks mtbdoc-one question for you... | free-agent
Mar 15, 2002 8:03 AM | | do you see your coach in person, or is it distance coaching? I am considering getting a coach (I currently race Sport, age 29), but am curious to find out just what I can accomplish. Any thoughts?
thanx |
| More about a coach | MTBDOC
Mar 16, 2002 3:33 PM | | I met Dave face to face at the Deer Valley NCS in 2000. Before that, it was simply phone and email. Now he is not going to talk about technique, etc. His forte is making POWER. He is the best at this. Send him an email at sprtsci1@aol.com. He'll be glad to talk to you on the phone or via email. To answer your question, hiring him (IF you are willing to do what you are told and work hard) will do more to make you faster than ANYTHING else you can do. Take my word on that.... |
| thanks, I may just give it a try... | free-agent
Mar 17, 2002 12:08 PM | | for next year. It may be a little late for his year since I have been using a different plan up to this point, with some pretty good success.
thanks again! |
| another ? for MTBDOC | Jill
Mar 15, 2002 1:35 PM | | How many total minutes are you doing on each day? And how do your legs feel on the 3rd day in a row of intense intervals?
I had been doing high volume with increasing intensity 2 weeks ago (before I got sick). My legs were kind tired for many of my more intense workouts but I pushed through them anyway. Then I was forced to take 4 days!!! off (when sick) and when I got back on the bike, I was suprised at how fresh my legs felt, given I was still recovering.
Now I wonder what quality of workout I was getting when my legs were tired. SInce I have not splurged on a power meter yet, I relied on HR which might have been high even though my wattage was low do to my not being fully rested.
Anyway, I think that 2 hard days in a row is all I can handle. |
| Duration | MTBDOC
Mar 16, 2002 3:30 PM | | Think of the duration of intensity (the WORK phase, not of the total workout). I've been doing around 24 min of intensity with the 2 or 3 min ints, 12-15 min for the 1 min. Third day in a row I feel like CRAP! Now I'm 45 this year, and recovery is a bit tougher the older you get. THE INTENSITY (as measured by power output) is what matters. IF you are blown after 2 days, take a couple rest days. I'm entering my 10th season of racing and am used to doing a good bit of intensity.
One of the many advantages of a power meter (SRM, Power Tap, or Computrainer) is that you have an objective measure. You may feel like crap but are making power, or may feel good but really aren't prducing much wattage. If you can't do the workout at an appropriate level, you need another day off. |
| Duration | Jill
Mar 18, 2002 7:32 AM | | Sounds like you put in some serious intensity - 12 1 min ints sounds painful. I am in the process of switching coaches (long story) but last year I only did ~5x3min and thought I should be doing more.
I am totally with you on the power meter - I am going to try to pick up a used one . Thanks for the info. |
| self proclaimed expert | beer dog
Mar 14, 2002 12:21 PM | | This guy is full of BS. I like his conclusion on infertility in Japan. He fails to mention that the Japanese have been eating soy for decades and that the infertility problems are only a recent development. |
| I agree | Trypsin
Mar 16, 2002 11:00 AM | | I've got a BS in nutrition and from what I know the guy is totally full of it. His advice is definately not worth following. I think a lot of people seem to think that if they see it on the internet then it is true, but thats just not the case. |
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