|   Need some advice for upcoming XC season... | kail
Mar 12, 2002 2:08 PM | | I took last year off for XC racing and focused on DH. The reason I didn't race XC last year is that I was very discouraged the year before. No matter how hard I trained, I could not place higher than the top 5 in the Sport class. I miss XC, so I think I'm going to give it another try this year. My technical abilities are better than most people that race XC, so that's not what's slowing me down. I just couldn't out pedal the competition. My training consisted mostly of epic trail rides; mostly in the 15-20 mile range, some 30's, about 4 days a week; medium intensity. The other days I just rode shorter rides in the 5-10 mile range. About twice a week I hammered hard (high intensity) for about 1/2 hour in the ride. Do I need to spend more time hammering? More miles? What can I do to increase my high speed endurance for 2 hours? I refuse to do road riding of any kind. Please, help - I want to win. I'm kind of a stocky guy, 5'10", 185 pounds in the riding season. Maybe I just can't get any faster. It seems like the little/skinny guys ALWAYS beat me to the top of the hill. |
| re: Need some advice for upcoming XC season... | DY
Mar 12, 2002 6:08 PM | | Unfortunately, to keep up you'll need to do either road riding and/or trainer work. You'll need to focus on short (at least 10 minutes worth) and long (20 minutes) intervals. Sounds like you have endurance and strength; you need high-intensity work, then spin to recup.
If you really hate road riding, my advice is to try to do some sort of intervals off-road. Time yourself a minute and go all out either on a climb or straightaway, spin to recup and do it again. This is not ideal, because the terrain can limit your work and also take a toll on your body.
In 2002, I've started to road train (mainly indoor trainer work) and it's made me much faster. I recently placed in the top five (fourth) for the first time after racing to two eighth-place finishes last year in the beginner 40-49 class.
Good luck and don't give up. Main thing is to have fun and if you hate road training, don't do it. But it will help your results. Guaranteed. |
| ride longer | mtnbkaz
Mar 12, 2002 8:49 PM | | You really need to ride longer if you want to build up endurance for 2 hr races. (Although if you're already in the top 5 in Sport I don't know what you're complaining about). 15-20 mile rides are not what I'd call an "epic trail ride". They're what I'd call a "medium length trail ride" if the terrain is mountainous or even a "short" trail ride if the terrain is more flat. (Ex., there's a very steep & technical 17-18 mile trail near my house that takes me about 2-2.5 hours (medium) and another rolling 15 mile trail that takes me about 1.25 hours (short).) It sounds like you need to do some longer riding for base endurance with some interval work for intensity. Read a book like Friel's "Mountain Biker's Training Bible" to help you construct a training plan.
Here in AZ, I don't know of any successful rider on the Sport podium (and definitely not the Expert podium) that doesn't train mostly on the road. When most riders decide they want to get serious about training, they get a road bike. At that point there's no such thing as a "roadie" or a "mountain biker" - you're just a "cyclist". Your area may not be as competitive so you may be able to stay off the road for longer but eventually you'll reach a point where you just can't train as well without riding on the road - it's just the easiest way to train and get endurance. I just don't understand the "anti-road bike" sentiment that some people have. In my mind, it's just another tool that makes it easier to accomplish your goals. I enjoy riding MTB much more but the road is much better from a pure fitness standpoint so I ride both.
Also, regarding body types, I'm about exactly your size (about 190 right now but dropping). There are things I can do in my training plan to train for hill climbing but the skinny guys are just going to have an advantage on courses with lots of climbing. But when the course is mostly rolling with only short, steep climbs the skinny guys have a hard time keeping up. Learn to focus on your strenghts and train to improve your weeknesses. |
| re: Need some advice for upcoming XC season... | FritzMan
Mar 13, 2002 4:48 AM | | What type of competitions are you planning on competing in? Enduros or shorter? I used to be around the same weight (being 5'9"), and found that my body physique really isn't ideal for short sprint-type races, so I did enduros instead (with great success). First thing's first, you need to do road riding to have any chance. However, I firmly don't believe in using a road bike as the posture is completely different. Hence, 75% of my training consists of locking out my SantaCruz Superlight and riding gravel roads in the country. My rides last at least an hour and gradually increase to 5+ hours (non stop) as an enduro approaches. Like you, my strength is in technical riding, and hence I refuse to be held up in a race during technical sections, you need to make time where you're best. With road/gravel training though, I'm also able to comfortably hammer a big gear on the the flats which typically further increases my advantage. I too get dropped on the climbs by small riders, but the combination of technical ability, flat speed, and endurance tends to make me competitive overall. |
| good call on "road" vs. "road bike" | mtnbkaz
Mar 13, 2002 6:30 AM | | I didn't mean to insinuate in my other message that you need a road bike to train. Riding slicks on a locked-out MTB on the road will accomplish the same thing. I personally like the road bike for the road but that's my decision. The goal of road training is that you can control your work effort instead of having the trail dictate it. It also doesn't beat up your body so much so you can train longer. |
| Road Riding | Kleinadian
Mar 13, 2002 5:14 AM | | The advice given so far sounds good. If you really hate riding on roads, get a trainer or excercise bike and you can do those workouts infront of the TV.
About XC racing vs downhill, don't you like the thrill of racing wheel to wheel with other competitors? That's what keeps me hooked - not results. |
| re: Need some advice for upcoming XC season... | KMan
Mar 13, 2002 7:00 AM | | "I could not place higher than the top 5 in the Sport class" If I am reading this right you had several top 5 finishes???? If this is correct you should be close to moving up to expert anyway. Generally the top 5 finishers are Expert material anyway. The reason the "skinny guys" are beating you to the top of the climbs are they are most likey trianing on the road! If you refuse to train to better yourself, you better just be content to place where you have been. "Most" Top 10 Sport finishers are doing some sort of road training and Expert I bet most all racers are road training...see the patter here.........
KMan |
| Thanks for the advice, but I have a few more ?'s... | kail
Mar 13, 2002 7:15 AM | | I don't understand why road riding is better training. Shouldn't I be training on the type of terrain I'm racing on? I just don't enjoy road riding. I've got some of the best trails in the world out my backdoor. When I say 15-20 miles is an "epic ride," that's no exaggeration. Most of these rides start at 6500 feet and climb to 9000 and sometimes 10,000 feet, with usually half of the distance in sustained climbing mode. Someone please explain the benefits of road-riding to me. i.e.- why is it better? |
| Thanks for the advice, but I have a few more ?'s... | FritzMan
Mar 13, 2002 7:47 AM | | The advantages of road riding are that you can retain a consistent heart rate for a sustained amount of time (typically an hour +). There's also the benefit of working on pedaling form & efficiency without the typical trail riding type of distractions. Trail riding, although a lot more fun, mimicks more interval type riding, which is good for HR recovery training, but not for sustain loads nor endurance. |
| a few reasons | mtnbkaz
Mar 13, 2002 11:53 AM | | Road riding is better because:
You can control your effort for your workout. On a MTB, your heartrate will shoot through the roof on a good climb and you can't back off without getting off the bike and walking. On a road bike, you have better control over what zone you are working in.
You never stop pedaling on the road. On a MTB ride, you coast and maneuver over obstacles for a significant part of the trail. So for a 1 hr MTB ride you may only be pedaling for 45 minutes (totally depends on the trail). On a 1 hr road ride you pedal the whole time.
Road riding is easier on your body. If I go for a 3 hour MTB ride, I'm pretty beat up. Just the continual impact to your body takes its toll. After a 3 hr road ride I still feel pretty good. This speeds recovery so you'll be ready for another workout tomorrow.
Where I live, road training is the difference between pack fodder and podium in Sport. Even many Beginners train a lot on the road. In Expert class, everyone trains on the road. I've read many quotes from the pros that say that about 80% of their training is on the road. Road = fitness. MTB trails = technical skills. If you already have great technical skills you could argue that you should be spending an even greater percentage of your training time on the road.
BTW, those are some serious climbs you have there. My steep rides go from about 1300'-3700'. |
| your elevation would kill me! | dan
Mar 13, 2002 2:55 PM | | I live at sea level and when I went to visit aunt in Utah at 5500 ft and was really suffering. |
| re: Need some advice for upcoming XC season... | RF
Mar 13, 2002 8:09 AM | | For the upcoming season...Move up to Expert! If you can finish top 5 and weigh 185 lbs, lose 10 lbs, get a road bike, and race expert.
I'm only a top 10 or so sport guy, but I can tell you that during the season, I don't even ride my mtn bike except to race it. |
| Well.... | Jrm
Mar 13, 2002 8:17 AM | | Compartmentized training on the road is the ticket. |
| re: I have a different take on this one | rpironcladracer (rich)
Mar 13, 2002 11:16 AM | | I think you are doing too much riding and too little intensity DEPENDING ON WHAT STAGE OF YOUR TRAINING YOU ARE IN. I disagree with those who say that you need more hours. I bet you are getting at least
You said, "My training consisted mostly of epic trail rides; mostly in the 15-20 mile range, some 30's, about 4 days a week; medium intensity. The other days I just rode shorter rides in the 5-10 mile range. About twice a week I hammered hard (high intensity) for about 1/2 hour in the ride. Do I need to spend more time hammering? More miles? What can I do to increase my high speed endurance for 2 hours? I refuse to do road riding of any kind"
If I add that up, it sounds like:
4 days a week of 15-20 miles off-road. 4 days x 1.5 to 2 hours if technical, equals 6-8 hours here.
3 days a week of 5-10 miles off road. 3 days of half an hour to an hour, say 2 hours here.
Two of those rides include high intensity work.
Guess what? No rest days! You cannot get stronger w/o rest. You're getting maybe 10 hours in but no rest days. 10 hours is enough for Sport.
You CAN stay on the MTB and improve, but it won't be as easy as on the road. But if it's more fun, you are more likely to stick to it.
My recipe:
Cut back to 5 days a week training.
Do 2 days of 2-3 hour low to moderate pace off-road rides with little climbing or descending or technical stuff. Fire roads would work.
Once a week focus on climbing intervals. Find a tough 3-4 minute hill. Climb it in a ridiculously easy gear. Cruise back down, do it again, one gear harder. Keep this up till you can't maintain a decent cadence (usually 4 reps). Do not cook yourself. Work up to 2 "sets" over a period of a month.
Once a week do cruise intervals or criss-cross intervals, at high intensity on flats or false flats. Incorporate twisty singletrack at the same time to build handling skills. After a 20 minute warmup, get to race pace and do 5 minutes, then drop back down to a more sustainable pace. Then 5 minutes at race pace (or slightly faster, since you will be toning it down after 5 minutes). For your first week, just do 3, 5 minute intervals. Build up slowly.
Once a week just ride for fun, whatever you want to do. |
| re: I have a different take on this one | mtnbkaz
Mar 13, 2002 12:34 PM | | When I said longer rides I was referring to endurance training workout length in relation to competition length. The original post mentioned endurance for 2 hrs. (approx. race length, I'll guess) but all of the training rides seemed shorter than the race length. If you want to race for 2 hrs, some of your training needs to be longer than 2 hrs (which you also recommended). Didn't mean that the original poster should train every day of the week. |
| re: I agree with ya | rpironcladracer (rich)
Mar 13, 2002 5:27 PM | | Absolutely correct. I was just surprised nobody realized or reacted to his training 7 days a week. |
| what's with this road riding ... | dan
Mar 13, 2002 2:39 PM | | what's up with all this "you have to do some road riding for training"? I hear this too often.I'm a mountain bike racer so I ride trails.who wants to road ride? I'm not saying it doesn't help but my training consists of 90% single track trails and did very well my first(last year) year racing.I won so much that I went from novice to expert in one season.I not bragging but you guys are telling us that we have to train on the road more than on the trails.we're mountain bikers.If I had to roadride for mountain bike races I guess I wouldn't be a mountain bike racer.I know roadriding helps but it will always make up 10% of my training.sorry but that's my new racer opinion.new racer but now expert newbe.my competitors are not going to force me to road ride,shave my legs or wear tight spandex shorts.I guess I'll look like a freak at the start line! |
| just imagine, you might be a pro if..... | rpironcladracer (rich)
Mar 13, 2002 5:29 PM | | Hey, sounds like you've got a plan that works for you. I just have to kid you a bit and tell ya you'd have won a pro race by now "if only you'd train on the road". he he heeee! |
| I guess I'll have to be content with my current results... | kail
Mar 13, 2002 8:49 PM | | cuz' like you, I like to ride trails, NOT roads. I refuse to do it, actually, unless it's like 3 miles of road to the TRAILHEAD. I'm actually a DHer at heart, and road riding does'nt provide the same adrenaline rush for me. I'm not knocking road riding, by any means, it's just not for me. According to these guys, though, I have to spend most of my time on the road if I want to win XC races. I guess I just won't win XC races. |
| There are exceptions to every rule and you are it........ | The Truth
Mar 14, 2002 10:32 AM | | Some people dont need to do that much road riding, otheres do. I myself need the road to get my fittness where it needs to be for the racing season. I much much prefer to ride the trails but sacrifice in order to race well. We all do are own thing and as long as we have fun it shouldnt matter what were doing. Ride well, race well, live well............
TT |
| It's also about time managment | Roger
Mar 14, 2002 12:45 PM | | I don't think most people have the close access to ride dirt everyday or at least five days a week. Road however, it's out the front door and you're gone.
In regard to your jump to expert, congrats good for you! But it's hard to qualify you as the norm, especially without knowing your background in sports etc. There's freaks out there and you may be lucky enough to be one! ;0)
Good luck to you in the expert class. |
| re: Need some advice for upcoming XC season... | Walt
Mar 14, 2002 9:53 AM | | Most of your eventual speed is going to be bounded by genetics. The skinny folks will generally beat you up the climbs. C'est la vie. This doesn't mean you can't get faster, but it does mean you probably shouldn't quit your day job. :)
You can train just fine on the trails. Most pros train on the road because it is convenient and takes less of a toll on the ass and the arms than road riding. Additionally, most elite riders are training in the winter when trails tend to be snowed in, and road rides/trainer rides are the only option. It sounds to me like you need to actually *structure* your training, rather than making radical changes to the intensity/duration you're riding. Read some books about training for racing and try something out. Get rest after intense training. This may mean going easy or not riding for a COUPLE of days in some cases.
If all else fails, stop by Amgen and pick up the latest performance enhancers. :) |
| try this | bigjay
Mar 14, 2002 5:40 PM | | I like the two ideas of structuring your workouts, structure to work at a certain % of max heart rate, or mimic a race- 10 min sprint start, hammer climb ect...
the other idea I like is getting some rest, not always off the bike rest but active recovery, go ride and practice controling your HR in certain gears.
But the idea I wanted you to try is to commute to school/work. Sounds like you love to ride. Start with once or twice a week, This will increase saddle time and can be either recovery or intense, I love racing cars from one stop light to the next, chasing down another ridder (all rides are a race) see how fast you can get there. I think commuting is an often overlooked part of training
good luck
J |
| re: Need some advice for upcoming XC season... | THB
Mar 15, 2002 9:03 PM | | When I used to race (expert) I never really did any training
I rode my bike along this one trail that was kinda hilly and timetrailed it usually which only took 30 mins to complete at my speed I was doing
I raced on sunday then rode usually 2 times during the week on tuesday and thurs
No road at all as I find roadriding very boring unless its to a trail with offroad :)
I dont know of any guy over 180 that can beat a skinny guy up a hill if they are in comparable shape
Im 165 too
Guess you need to learn to keep pedaling. God I remember now about that when I upgraded from sport to expert. the non-stop pedaling!
Best I placed in expert was 2nd at smaller race and 8th at championships that was out of 75 or so riders
One thing I need to work on is my starts damn Im slooooow starting off |
| re: Need some advice for upcoming XC season... | Choda
Mar 26, 2002 7:26 PM | | In my opinion road riding is definitely a good thing. I'm a sport racer with 3 wins (all 3 I was in) and my training consists of riding the road to the trails, hammering on the trails then riding back home. I try to stick to that every other day. It's 2 hours of road and 1.5 hours off-road. It's not really boring at all. I take back roads that have nice scenery, low-traffic, and a good mix of hills and flats. Plus when I'm riding the roads I can listen to music on my CD player so I actually enjoy both portions of the ride about the same. If the weather is bad I go to the gym and do an hour on a stationary plus some weights. I think my method is good because it mixes endurance with intensity all in one nice package. |
| If you don't like the road . . . | GetAJoke.com
Mar 27, 2002 10:56 AM | | If you'd rather not train on the road, just find another place where you can get the same type of controlled workout. For example, around where I live there are tons of gravel roads that go on forever. Sure they are still roads, but it's on gravel and there's way less traffic. Or if you know of a trail that is quite flat then go there.
The idea is just to have a place to ride where you can control the intensity. I would way rather be trail riding, but I realize that the best training is done on the flat. Anyway, you'll be glad you did it when you fly by the racers who beat you last year. :-) |
| |
