|   Follow up for those that avoid group rides... | free-agent
Dec 17, 2002 10:28 AM | | because of the "hammering" involved. Why do you avoid those rides? Is there research backing it up, or is it because Friel says so? Does anyone believe the opposite to be true (hammering once in a while in the off-season is a good thing)? I have often heard not to ever ride hard during base, but what about cyclocross racers? They hammer once a week for 45 or more minutes, and all of the top pros in our state also race cyclocross and do great racing mtbs. So-is the belief true or not?
Good discussions on this board!! |
| Follow-up | Enzoid
Dec 17, 2002 10:53 AM | | I commented below, but I'll reiterate my feelings. Friel sets out a good program for people who have no common sense or for those who are on the cusp of world domination. For the rest of us, especially those with jobs, it is needless structure.
I have never followed anything close to what Friel describes. The only thing I do that might be considered structure is at least a day of intervals a week. Even in the off season. I weight train, including upper body, all year long. I ride with a group and try my darndest to keep up with guys that are 1s and 2s all the time. I also make sure I eat right and get rest. If that means only riding 3-4 days a week, so be it.
And you know what? It works. I was a state champ two years ago in the sport class, I have since been racing expert and making steady improvments, and I'm a 3 on the road. |
| Right on... | free-agent
Dec 17, 2002 12:40 PM | | You may be very genetically gifted though. The #1 pro from our state basically adheres to the same plan as you; however, some of us need structure to be effective with our training. I just want to make sure my plan/riding is based on effective research and not the philosophy of one trainer (ie Friel).
It seems to me that a lot of people take what he says in the training bible as "the word." I want to know if other people encounter research evidence to the contrary. |
| If you want to be the best you can be .... | racer
Dec 17, 2002 3:11 PM | | You would probably be best to limit zone 3 riding, which is where group rides often end up. It is not only Friel who advocates this, Carmichael does, too. Here is a link detailing Lance Armstrong's January training:
http://trainright.com/ctscafe/memberjournals/lancearmstrong/01012001.htm
Notice that he is keeping his rides below a Heart Rate Ceiling of 155-160 BPM.
I mean no offense here, but almost anyone can win sport level mountain bike races without structured training (ie just riding a lot). Many can do OK in the expert class in most states (ie other than CO, CA, maybe a few others), too. But if one wants to achieve their own personal highest level, it is best to have a structured plan.
What it boils down to is: What do you want out of your racing? Structured training takes some fun out of everyday riding, so is being the best you can be worth it to you? If not, like I said, most people can progress to the expert level w/o too much structure. |
| Follow-up | mountaingoat
Dec 17, 2002 5:22 PM | | Why would someone follow a plan that does not fit thier lifstyle? Basically it seems as though you hate all plans because they don't seem to work with your life.
The thing to do is just gain as much knowledge as possible, that means read, watch bulliten boards like this, ask other riders, and then design your own plan that fits with you.
I use Friel stuff, Carmicheal, Lippert, and various things I have read or studied, or heard about.
To say someone using Friel is not using common sense is a bit blindsided. What if what he prescribes is working for someone? I read his bulliten board all the time and and it sounds as though it is working for people. All he did was take the idea of periodazation and make it understandable to anyone willing to read. |
| Can you say sandbagger?? | Cevan
Dec 23, 2002 12:25 PM | | State champ in the sport class two years in a row. Why didn't you upgrade after the 1st year?? I won the sport class for the New England series some years back and upgraded the next year. I would have been embarrassed to have raced in the sport class a second year. |
| Huh? | Enzoid
Dec 26, 2002 10:41 AM | | I only won it once. The promoter makes all champs upgrade the next year. |
| nobody has mentioned the "mental" aspect.... | sbxcguy
Dec 17, 2002 1:07 PM | | ...of hammering year round. most of us year have priorities over training/racing (school, jobs, families etc...) right? many, like myself fit the training in at dawn before we have to face the boss. because of this, I look forward to the so-called offseason because I don't need to force myself to do 3 hard effort rides/week in the dark like I do in spring/summer. this can be so mentally taxing when you combine with deadlines, vacations, recitals or whatever - things that take us away from the bike. That's not to say that these conflicts don't arise in the mddle of race season. they always do! but at least you aren't burning the candle at both ends 365 24/7.
BTW - Friel cautions AGAINST having a plan that is too structured for this very same reason. He recommends adjusting the plan as the conflicts arise and to "let it go", avoid trying to "make up" the workouts, etc. to prevent risk of OT. Although Friel doesn't say so, I inturpret this to mean that on the same note, the training plans should not be so structured that we have to avoid doing things like group rides once in a while.
On a personal note I'm trying Friel for the first time. Like everything else -it's not for everyone. It may not even be for me. But I'm giving it a try. If I improve, I'll keep following it until it's no longer effective. If not, at least I can tell myself that I tried a structured plan.
AWESOME DISCUSSION TOPIC!!! KUDOS TO THOSE THAT STARTED THIS BELOW!! |
| it's more about emphasis...not strict adherence... | Patchito
Dec 17, 2002 3:45 PM | | What I mean is that periodization is, in general, a good idea. After all, I don't think anyone can physically or mentally commit themselves to gut wrenching intervals MTBDOC style twelve months out of the year - that's a recipe for major burnout. But on the other hand, I don't think I buy the idea that you have to completely detrain in the off season to build yourself back up. Like I said below, now is the time of year to place your training emphasis on building strength through weight work and building a base on the road with longer rides at easier intensities. That's no reason to completely lose your top end fitness either. You need to give yourself permission once a week to do a LITTLE hammering with your buddies. That'll keep your top end fitness in the general ballpark of what it was when you were peaking, and, perhaps more importantly, it'll keep riding enjoyable, which is an extremely underappreciated aspect of training. If riding a bicyle becomes a stale drudgery, you won't train or race your best regardless of how many Friel books you've read. |
| well said--nm | free-agent
Dec 17, 2002 6:08 PM | | nm |
| plenty of evidence | Radar MCM #35
Dec 18, 2002 6:21 AM | | There's plenty of evidence that building a base helps tremendously. There's also plenty of research proving that doing intervals and high intensity work all year keeps you from reaching your potential. Take me for example:
In the season, doing intervals, etc, I would still do an aerobic ride on recovery days. I would average around 13 mph over hilly roads for these rides. After a good "base" period, focusing only on aerobic rides, I average closer to 15+ mph on the same routes, for the same heart rate. See, if I would just be doing intervals when I was less aerobically efficient, that's all the speed I would have to build on. But with an average speed of 15+ mph (indicated much higher wattage produced) in an aerobic zone, that pretty much guarantees higher speeds and power output when I get into anaerobic work.
I wasn't totally convinced a while back, but after reading Friel's book and other articles, I couldn't deny the facts.
Radar MCM #35 |
| That's what I want to know... | free-agent
Dec 18, 2002 8:16 AM | | There's plenty of evidence that building a base helps tremendously.
I agree with base point, but that isn't what I am asking about.
There's also plenty of research proving that doing intervals and high intensity work all year keeps you from reaching your potential.
Where is the evidence specifically related to one ride per week? I want to find out if doing one hard ride a week (group ride) during base work will be counterproductive. People seem to think so, but haven't been able to "prove" it with research. Everyone seems to say-"Don't ride hard with your buddies or you won't be at peak fitness during race season." Is it a cycling myth-that is the quest I am on.... |
| That's what I want to know... | racer
Dec 18, 2002 9:22 AM | | My coach told me that some intensity once a week in the winter is OK as long as the rest is Z1-Z2. For me this intensity can come in either a group ride or a MTB ride where it is impossible to stay aerobic on the hills. I still think that it is counter productive for say a sport rider to ride w/ semi-pros. Remember, if you are the sport rider, the semi-pros ARE going easy while you are killing yourself! |
| Excellent point... | free-agent
Dec 18, 2002 9:44 AM | | riding with others above your level would be really tough on the system. In that case I would avoid the ride altogether, and just ride alone. |
| but... | Radar MCM #35
Dec 19, 2002 7:32 AM | | z3-z5 rides are much harder to recover from though (ESPECIALLY in the off-season, this has been noted by Friel), which makes it tougher to log your necessary endurance miles and to put your all effort into weight sessions.
Radar MCM #35 |
| re: let me clarify my situation | rpironcladraceroriginal poster
Dec 18, 2002 8:10 AM | | terrific discussion but what I see is a dichotomy in philosophy that doesn't really address my temptations. I was just looking for suggestions as to how to avoid getting sucked in on a group ride that is going harder than I want to do. Maybe some of you have found you can just let them go, maybe others try to get 2-3 other racers to slow down with ya, etc.
I don't believe in avoiding intensity altogether in the off-season. For one thing, I love to ride hard- that's why I race! It would be giving up a LOT to say, "I will not let me HR get above 145 for the next 3 months." My wife might not like that idea either!
What challenges me is a week when I have already done enough intensity for this time of year and my stage of training, then go on a group ride that is supposed to be a fun, casual, base-building ride, and that ride has several very hard efforts that will either drop me or put me in zone 5a-5b. I'm talking about 28-30 mph in a paceline for 5 minutes on the flats because the local pro has gone to the front and everybody wants to hang with him. He sees that "everybody is on" and lets a little power flow. Pretty soon I look down and my HRM says 170. earlier, we've been modest in our efforts till we hit the hill, then folks start going off and I have this devil in my ear that says, "you aren't going to let HIM drop you, are ya?" and I go, too.
I just need to exercise a little more humility and let them go! |
| Sounds like you already... | free-agent
Dec 18, 2002 8:19 AM | | have your answer. I have been taking up the back of the pack lately on group rides to keep my intensity low, and it actually feels like an accomplishment to do so (mental of course)!
A good discussion indeed!! |
| ideas for keeping it easy | racer
Dec 18, 2002 8:23 AM | | Hey RP,
I don't know where you live but are there other group rides that you could go on? I live in CO, so there are a ton of different rides going on - you just need to find one that suits your needs.
Another suggestion - do you have any female racing buds? You might try a women's (racers) ride. Seriously. Women can sometimes be (and sometimes not) more disciplined when it comes to keeping easy. Around here, the women seem not to mind if guys ride along with them, as long as they do not push the pace.
Lastly, start your own ride. Im sure that you are not the only guy out there who wants to take it easy. Maybe you can round a few people up and start your own 'aerobic only' group ride. |
| What I think it all means | Dream Plus
Dec 18, 2002 1:21 PM | | If you get sucked into a harder ride than expected, there's nothing wrong with that. If however, the recovery required after such and effort prevents you from being able to achieve your goal of building a base, then you're defeating yourself. Or If you don't recover enough then you may not get the benefit out of the next ride aimed toward building that base.
As a last point, setting goals and achieving them even if it's "I will ride boring miles in Z1 & Z2 today" will be more rewarding than having to second guess yourself all the time. This may come in handy when it's time to say " I will ride 5 AE intervals today" and it's June. |
| Off season training | MTBDOC
Dec 20, 2002 5:38 AM | | Every workout throughout the year has a purpose. Problem is, most folks don't really know what they are trying to accomplish. During the off season, weight work as I've outlined a couple weeks ago has a specific agenda. Rides do the same thing.
MTB races (as far as turning the cranks) are won by pushing harder/faster on the cranks for longer than the other guy. Periodized training helps accomplish this. When people talk about "base" mileage, it takes on this sort of holy grail of importance. I do a 4 week block of endurance training after the last phase of weight work. This includes some intensity. One year I did cyclocross races during this phase. I sucked at the cross as I didn't have the ability to make consistent power for 45 min well above threshold, but it certainly didn't hurt building endurance.
I do not advocate incredibly brutal and structured intervals year round, but for those with the discipline and motivation, a structured year round program WILL help you acheive your best. For many folks, work demands preclude this (and I'm in this situation at present) and training becomes less structured and less specific.
Okay, to answer the question: doing a bit of work above LT is NOT going to hurt your endurance rides! It doesn't "destroy developing capillaries" as I once read in "Bicycling". Lay out your training program to the best of your ability, or get a coach to help you do it, and follow it...or sit on the couch, do fun rides, and be a less successful racer...it is YOUR LIFE! For many seasons, training like a fanatic and then winning races during the season was worth it...now I'm less focused...getting a tandem to do some road riding with the wife; riding mostly SS MTB off road...and wondering if the fire will return in next few months. |
| Thanks Doc | Kleinadian
Dec 20, 2002 12:56 PM | | Nice to have an answer based on reality and not some internet know it all who read something and hold it to be true (not picking on anyone specific - this bothers me for any sport or hobby)
Doc, do you ride with a group of cool guys? Might make biking fun again and fuel your fire. |
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