|   Continuation of Lactic Acid Threshold discussion... | BruceBrown
Dec 26, 2002 8:29 AM | | I just did a search on this board and found that lactic acid had been discussed a couple of weeks ago. Sorry to be late to the conversation, but I want to ask a question about it hoping that I can get some feedback from those who know something about lactic acid threshold.
I spent the better part of the past few hours looking it up on the internet to read what I could. The last thing I read on the subject was found at this link: http://www.brianmac.demon.co.uk/lactic.htm
Back to the December 14th discussion:
Dwayne Barry wrote on Dec-14-02, 07:24 AM....
.....It used to be thought that lactate or lactic acid itself was fatiguing or would cause you to have to slowdown but that idea is kind of falling by the way side. What LT is good for is measuring your fitness. If you can produce more power at your LT, you have by definition become fitter, that is, your ability to produce energy oxidatively has improved.
Although I am becoming an avid cyclist and am aware of some of the terminology related to anaerobic threshold, VO2 Max and others - I am still confused after reading a lot of information today concerning lactic acid threshold. However, I have gone out on rides with efforts far beyond what I could sustain and have a basic understanding of how to avoid that simply through trial and error (and training) over the past year.
Allow me to really jump across a bridge to ask a question. The bridge I want to jump across is in order to move the discussion of lactic acid threshold to another discipline to see if there is any correlation. The discipline happens to be my profession, but I am trying to develop some correlations between my training on the bike and how or if I could apply any of that to my professional work. I am an opera singer. At first glance, one might easily laugh with images of large, rotund opera singers screaming out high notes and wonder what the heck I am talking about. Yes, there are a few well known and not so well known singers who fit that image, but the vast majority of professionals out in the trenches on the opera stages throughout the world these days are trim, fit and practicing our craft with as much discipline as we can muster. Try waltzing around the room for a few minutes, then run up a flight of stairs, turn around and sing a solo at full volume for 4 minutes - loud enough to carry across an orchestra of 60 instruments and fill a theater that sits 2000 with your voice. It's not easy - at least for me.
In specific, the muscles used for singing (found in the larynx, abodomen, chest, neck, etc...) are prone to fatigue following difficult moments in music where one might be singing at full volume or singing a few pages of non stop music that could be looked at as the equivalent of sprinting full out for 400 meters. The fatigue builds up throughout such passages or sections of music where there is little chance to rest. In these moments, it is very difficult for the body to take in enough oxygen to both provide the air needed for singing as well as to provide the oxygen needed for the muscles involved in singing to not build up with fatigue to the point that a singer just wants to stop singing for a few seconds or minutes to rest the muscles and catch one's breath.
In addition, modern day theater usually has the singer fairly active on the stage and I can certainly attest to the benefits I have felt by being fit on the aerobic side of the equation. I used to accomplish this solely through running, but now I do it on the bike. Does anyone think that there is or could be a correlation with the subject of lactic acid threshold from what I describe in the act of singing? If so, I am interested in learning more about it and how I could improve my threshold.
I ask the question because as a singer who has spent 15 years on the professional stage, I often face a lot of similar symptoms of cycling surrounding fatigue, heart rates, bonking, etc... when performing roles in operas that go on for 2 to 3 hours. I now know why after running around on stage, sweating in a leather costume and singing for two hours that I almost pass out due to "bonking" if I don't eat properly before, during and after a performance. Before this year, I would never think about having a little snack or swig of Gatorade backstage or in my dressing room during a long performance. I used to nearly faint from exhaustion during the longer roles because I was only drinking water and I would "bonk". I changed all of that this year and have not once ever felt those same "out of energy" feelings because I now bring a couple of snacks or Gatorade as well as eat a recovery meal following the performance. I never knew or was never taught that my chosen profession was "like a sport".
Now I am wondering if there are specific things I could do to improve my lactic acid threshold as it relates to singing. Along with that, my confusion comes from what I read today as to whether or not this chemical process while on the bike directs the muscle fatigue feeling only to the muscles being used in the act of spinning the pedals - or does the fatigue enter other muscles as well? Likewise, if we are attempting at making a correlation in the act of singing, would this fatigue be concentrated in the muscles in the larynx, neck and abdomen (primary muscles used for singing)? If there is any kind of correlation, should exercises be targeted at the specific muscles used for singing? I ask that because I read this at the above link I gave on one of the articles I read today regarding improving one's lactate threshold:
The aim is to saturate the muscles in lactic acid which will educate the body's buffering mechanism (alkaline) to deal with it more effectively. The accumulation of lactate in working skeletal muscles is associated with fatigue of this system after 50 to 60 seconds of maximal effort. Sessions should comprise of one to five reps (depends on the athlete's ability) with near to full recovery.
Training continuously at about 85-90% of your maximum heart rate for 20-25 minutes will improve your LT.
A session should be conducted once a week and commence eight weeks before a major competition. This will help the muscle cells retain their alkaline buffering ability. Improving your LT will also improve your tlimvVO2max.
I know this is "way out there" in terms of discussing cycling, but the subject really interests me and I am wondering where I could turn for any information that might lead me to topics of interest. I imagine if I was a doctoral candidate at a university, the subject could easily be turned into a topic for a dissertation or thesis.
Any thoughts on the subject would be much appreciated. Thanks.
BB |
| re: Continuation of Lactic Acid Threshold discussion... | mtnbkaz
Dec 26, 2002 9:54 AM | | Wow, that was a long post. But since I am an amateur singer (or at least I was in college) who has done some theatre in the past I can understand where you are coming from.
First, let's speak in generics. Whether we are talking about a bike race, performing in an opera, or simply walking your dog in the evening, they are all physical workouts. The intensity varies and the muscles you use and cardio exertion vary but they are still workouts so I'll refer to them as such. As you train and become more fit for your activity (bicycle or opera), you will be able to sustain higher power output at a given heart rate. That's what that first statement you quoted is referring to.
Now let's look at your operatic workouts. Cycling should be a great way for you to keep in shape for your profession. (Just don't ride before a performance - my voice is always shot after a hard workout.) Running up stairs or across stage, etc. are essentially short, intense anaerobic activities similar to doing a short sprint or hill climb on your bike. When you do this, your HR will increase and lactic acid will build up in your muscles. In order to become more fit, we do "anaerobic endurance" workouts such as intervals so that we can create more power at a given exertion level (which will make you faster in a bike race - this is what your second quote is referring to). Or conversely, you could create the same power at a lower exertion level (which would not make you faster but would make you less tired). So in this sense you should not get as tired from your professional workouts as you become more fit on the bike. Another benefit to anaerobic endurance training is that it helps shorten your recovery times. In other words, as you become fit it will take you much less time to catch your breath after a hard workout.
"Bonking" is a totally different issue. When you are doing any extended workout, you need to keep refueling your body. Generally your body will store enough energy for a 90-minute workout. Any longer than that will require refueling to avoid the bonk.
Hope this helps. |
| step aerobics and that lung exerciser thingy.. | Patchito
Dec 26, 2002 1:11 PM | | The aerobic routine you do with one of those terminally perky instructors at the local gym is probably more in tune with the type of running around you do on stage. As for singing, there's that thing I've seen in the Performance catalog that apparently strengthens your diaphram. I think you breath into it or something and it provides some sort of resistance, kind of like a weight workout for your diaphram. It seems kind of useless and gimmicky with respects to running or cycling, but might help you keep belting out those high C's like Boccelli. Cycling is great for all around fitness, and will certainly be a benefit, but I don't think it'll increase your "singing AT". BTW, I was just introduced to Josh Groban yesterday...beautiful voice. I think I like his timbre even better than Andrea. |
| re: Continuation of Lactic Acid Threshold discussion... | BruceBrown
Dec 27, 2002 4:33 AM | | Wow, that was a long post. But since I am an amateur singer (or at least I was in college) who has done some theatre in the past I can understand where you are coming from.
Sorry about the length. This one is long as well. I guess I have been anxious to discuss it with someone. You know the amount of air needed to sustain large vocal sounds which helps in the discussion.
First, let's speak in generics. Whether we are talking about a bike race, performing in an opera, or simply walking your dog in the evening, they are all physical workouts. The intensity varies and the muscles you use and cardio exertion vary but they are still workouts so I'll refer to them as such. As you train and become more fit for your activity (bicycle or opera), you will be able to sustain higher power output at a given heart rate. That's what that first statement you quoted is referring to.
I'm with you so far. Real world experience for me after one year on the bike up in the mountains has resulted in:
--my bike commute now being a piece of cake
--2 1/2 hours of basketball once a week doesn't leave me exhausted and I recover pretty quickly the day or two following
--I can ski longer runs without stopping in the middle for a "recovery" gasp of air or two
--general conditioning just gives me more energy throughout the day
Now let's look at your operatic workouts. Cycling should be a great way for you to keep in shape for your profession. (Just don't ride before a performance - my voice is always shot after a hard workout.) Running up stairs or across stage, etc. are essentially short, intense anaerobic activities similar to doing a short sprint or hill climb on your bike. When you do this, your HR will increase and lactic acid will build up in your muscles. In order to become more fit, we do "anaerobic endurance" workouts such as intervals so that we can create more power at a given exertion level (which will make you faster in a bike race - this is what your second quote is referring to). Or conversely, you could create the same power at a lower exertion level (which would not make you faster but would make you less tired). So in this sense you should not get as tired from your professional workouts as you become more fit on the bike. Another benefit to anaerobic endurance training is that it helps shorten your recovery times. In other words, as you become fit it will take you much less time to catch your breath after a hard workout.
I am with you here, as well. The general conditioning has kept me from getting tired - or as tired on the stage while singing (as well as rehearsing). Recovery times are better both during the performance as well as following. Of course, I have added the recovery snack/drink/meal following a rehearsal of duration or a performance of duration to help with the bounce back in recovery. Never knew such a thing was important, but what a difference it makes.
In thinking about specific vocal exercises that could target the equivalent of an anerobic workout to prepare the muscles, I imagine they would depend on the type of short duration I was training for to use during a performance. Fast moving notes needed in arias from older operas or high and sustained fortissimo notes needed in a more dramatic piece in the middle of an opera would require specific conditioning to prepare for the live performance event. In addition, some "hit tunes" come at the beginning of one's appearance on stage (the "Torreador song" in Carmen for Escamillo or Figaro's "largo al factotum" from The Barber of Seville both allow no onstage warm up as you walk on stage and sing your big "party" piece hit tune from the get go. So getting the heart rate up and the muscles warmed up is essential in the backstage or dressing room preparation. In addition to the usual vocal warm ups, I've started walking up and down flights of stairs in the opera house beginning 30 minutes prior to performance to get the body in some sort of a "ready" state of mind. Then I recover for 5 to 10 minutes before walking out on stage for the performance. Thus far, it seems to help a little bit to do this as some of the initial anxiety or jitters are worked out better because the body has gone through a little warm up period. Other parts I sing allow you to warm up onstage for several minutes to an hour or more before you encounter your "hit tune" solo that you have to deliver at optimum.
"Bonking" is a totally different issue. When you are doing any extended workout, you need to keep refueling your body. Generally your body will store enough energy for a 90-minute workout. Any longer than that will require refueling to avoid the bonk.
Yes. I learned the hard way about bonking in my first NYC marathon many, many years ago at about the 22 mile point. Didn't really know what it was at the time, but now I know. I have also had it occur to me onstage in the middle of a long performance. A few years ago in the middle of The Marrige of Figaro, I was fine during Act 1 and Act 2. Those two acts together are about 90 minutes. After the short intermission and during the first section of Act 3 - I was suddenly seeing white, feeling faint and forgot all the words. I barely even remembered what opera I was in. I pretty much had blanked out. At the time, I thought it was due to nerves or performance anxiety. However, I had the same thing happen a few other times after the 90 minute or 2 hour point in an opera where I was singing a large and demanding role. Saw white, felt faint, weak. I think, looking back on all of those times, that it really was "bonking" because I would never eat before or during the performance. Since I now always have a snack with me in the dressing room (a little chocolate, apple, banana, Gatorade, etc...) - I have been able to avoid that from ever happening again. The same feeling happened to me once or twice on 2 hour rides this summer on my mountain bike which linked me to the correlation of "bonking". Anyway, those are things simply not taught in one's schooling and I am trying to piece it all together from what I am learning about cycling to use in performing.
Hope this helps.
Yes, it all helps. Thanks to you and everyone else for responding. I realize the subject and my attempt at trying to correlate it to singing may seem odd, but I think there is a connection worth exploring to improve my performing (as well as my cycling).
BB |
| re: Continuation of Lactic Acid Threshold discussion... | RISKDR
Dec 26, 2002 1:40 PM | | if i understand you correctly you want to know if a generalized program of excersize aimed at raizing the anaerobic threashold
would benefit the specific muscles used in singing. i think the answer is yes and no. yes, in that the more efficient your heart muscles pumping ability is the easier it is to supply blood to all
working muscles. BUT, so much of aerobic capacity and particularly the capacity at or over the anerobic (you call it lactic accid) threashold lies within the muscle cell and the capilaries that supply it. this means that in order to maximize ones lactic threashold one has to eventually do work at the level of the specific muscle cells doing the work. said differntly, one might maximize the anerobic threashold of the leg muscles, but the arm muscles would lag behind unless given specific training.
maximizing your heart muscles capacities, such as the ejection fraction, the size of the chambers and the force of contraction will help with recovery from anaerobic efforts of all muscle groups. interval training is effective at doing this. the intervals don't have to be grossly anerobic to be effective. if you know where your lactic accid threashold is you can do intervals at 10% faster. do these maybe once per week. you can also do some anerobic threashold work at a pace like an all out 10 mile time trial. do that maybe once a month.
now, about the buffers to lactic accid. that has to be trained at the cell level. having buffers in your leg muscle cells is not going to help your singing muscles to sustain anerobic efforts. in fact this whole idea of building buffers only works for a short time. eventually the alkalinity of the blood gets out of balance and you end up with an over training syndrome. maybe its best not to go there.
seems to me that you are running a marathon and not the 440. the aerobic side of your training should far outwiegh the anaerobic side. |
| re: Continuation of Lactic Acid Threshold discussion... | BruceBrown
Dec 27, 2002 3:03 AM | | if i understand you correctly you want to know if a generalized program of excersize aimed at raizing the anaerobic threashold would benefit the specific muscles used in singing. i think the answer is yes and no. yes, in that the more efficient your heart muscles pumping ability is the easier it is to supply blood to all working muscles. BUT, so much of aerobic capacity and particularly the capacity at or over the anerobic (you call it lactic accid) threashold lies within the muscle cell and the capilaries that supply it. this means that in order to maximize ones lactic threashold one has to eventually do work at the level of the specific muscle cells doing the work. said differntly, one might maximize the anerobic threashold of the leg muscles, but the arm would lag behind unless given specific training.
Thank you for the response. Yes, I had figured that the type of training would require both "general" as well as "specific" muscles in terms of what to target. Overall "general" aerobic conditioning seems like the logical base to have to begin with for any discipline that involves endurance. I have benefitted a great deal from riding my bicylce for most of 2002 on a regular basis which has gotten me into pretty good "general" endurance shape - at least for durations not longer than 3 hours. I have not done any interval work by choice in terms of so many minutes at this heart rate and then a rest period at such and such a heart rate, but instead I was relying on the terrain in the mountains to dictate the variety of efforts to get me through year one. I was reading a link on the internet recently about doing some one leg at a time work as well as a little bit about using intervals in your training, but have not yet had added them into my riding as I guess year one was just designed to ride.
That "general" shape I have been able to pedal myself into transfers over easily to other activities I do on occasion (basketball, skiing, singing, etc...). Perhaps the basketball constitutes my once per week "interval" training where over the course of a 2 - 2 1/2 hour period, we run full court games with plenty of fast breaks and shorter sprints thrown in to keep the pace at a nice variety.
In terms of the "specific" training related to the muscles involved in singing, I wonder about developing a regimen to target building the endurance as well as anerobic conditioning. The problem I and others had as voice students was that nothing was taught about general conditioning of the body. Nor was much said as to why we were required to learn certain vocal exercises and how they would benefit us when applied to music or performance. It's obvious that certain voice exercises are targeted at stamina, endurance, flexibility, etc... . However, nobody that I have met has put research and data together to be able to view it from an athletic point of view or how to manage everything for the best conditioning - even though it has been talked about at times for the past century that opera singing is a physical activity that requires a particular kind of conditioning. If I were teaching, I would have my students on a regular general conditioning program to prepare them because I know what the reality of a performance career requires. It's pretty demanding physically if one does it correctly. Within that conditioning program, I would want to offer reasons why endurance is important and have explanations as well as exercises for the body and the voice to reach certain conditioning goals. One cannot be in peak form year round, but on the professional level, we all usually sing 50 - 75 major performances per year. Between, is the conditioning, rehearsal and preparation for the next production. The summer is usually the "off season" where things can relax.
if you know where your lactic acid threashold is you can do intervals at 10% faster. do these maybe once per week. you can also do some anerobic threashold work at a pace like an all out 10 mile time trial. do that maybe once a month.
now, about the buffers to lactic accid. that has to be trained at the cell level. having buffers in your leg muscle cells is not going to help your singing muscles to sustain anerobic efforts. in fact this whole idea of building buffers only works for a short time. eventually the alkalinity of the blood gets out of balance and you end up with an over training syndrome. maybe its best not to go there.
seems to me that you are running a marathon and not the 440. the aerobic side of your training should far outwiegh the anaerobic side.
Understood that the work at the cell level in the legs is not going to benefit the cell work needed in the throat (larynx muscles). Therefore, vocal exercises targeted at the types of passages needed to be sung in the "sprint" portion of the opera need to be used. Whether it is fast moving, flexible notes (such as Rossini, Donizetti or Mozart) or big loud dramatic passages at the top of one's range found in the works of Verdi, Puccini, etc... - targeting exercises that work the voice in such a manner to build up at the cell level a reserve that can sustain what is needed seems to make sense. The question is how to do it without going into the "overtrained" syndrome? Would devoting one day per week to vocal exercises aimed at being 10% beyond the threshold (if one could determine that level) or endurance effort be a beneficial routine? It's a given that the muscles used in singing are already in excellent "general" condition, but what about moving beyond that general to prepare for the specific?
I would say that the "anerobic effort" in singing may only happen for 3 to 5 minutes per opera for doing a large part. And even then, it usually only happens during a difficult aria where the character sings by him/herself for a few minutes without interruption. In some operas, this difficult passage is much more "anerobic" than others and based on one's overall conditioning - the performance can vary from singer to singer and performance to performance. The rest of the opera is usually spread out into conditioning that would easily fall under the endurance training category. Since I feel those specific muscles are already in excellent "general condition", I am probably more interested in targeting the "sprint" within the endurance activity. That's the one where you sing your big solo or two and have to call upon most of your conditioning and reserves to rise to the challenge and deliver the performance without gasping for air, experiencing muscle fatigue and then ending up not doing so well in the recovery following these sustained minutes to go back to the endurance portion.
Things have already improved from one year ago before I climbed on the bike. So the general conditioning has been a big plus for me. How to go the next step to target some sort of interval training on the vocal side to target the specific cells is the next step. Not every opera with a large role has an aria (solo) that is so demanding that it is leading me to this questioning. Rather, I have a couple of specific parts that really tax my limits from a physical and vocal perspective and am hoping that some sort of specific training leading up to performing those parts would be beneficial.
BB |
| re: Continuation of Lactic Acid Threshold discussion... | Radar MCM #35
Dec 27, 2002 7:20 AM | | I agree with Riskdr, biking lets your heart becomes more efficient at getting blood to your muscles. So it should help with singing. And you probably dont even realize it, but your experience in singing HAS raised your ability to buffer lactic acid in your singing-related muscles.
It's funny how you bring theatre up on a message board. I'm 16 now, been racing for 4 years, and when I really got into biking I quit my second favorite thing in the world (after mountain biking), ballet. I was in a pre-professional company for dancers under 18 and I'd have a good chance at being pro right now if I hadn't ditched it for mtn bike racing. But yes, I can totally agree with you on how intense performances are. On our big weekends, we would have performances at 2pm friday, 7pm friday, 2pm saturday, 7pm saturday, and 2pm sunday. My roles would range from an easy 20 min scene to insanely intense solo of 1-5 mins that would leave me gasping for air at the end. Oh, and the theatre we normally performed in was around 2500 seats :) I always tried to eat at intermission and definetly between shows.
Another thing...riding at 85%-90% of your max hr doesn't necessarily improve your LT in the best way. It will if your LT is about 92% of your max hr. The point is, everyone's LT is a different percentage of their max hr and it's most efficient to determine your LT and train right below (or at) that heart rate. Training above your LT yeilds diminishing returns in terms of increasing wattage vs. recovery time.
Radar MCM #35 |
| re: Continuation of Lactic Acid Threshold discussion... | BruceBrown
Dec 28, 2002 3:47 AM | | And you probably dont even realize it, but your experience in singing HAS raised your ability to buffer lactic acid in your singing-related muscles.
That's what I thought. What about keeping a training program of those muscles that includes a day or two or rest per week as well as how often (when not singing performances) to target various degrees of intensity? If I followed a regimen used for running or cycling, I could in someway transfer that to designing a maintenance program for my voice as well when I do my vocal exercises and work on preparing music for future performances. It's easy to find a spare afternoon and just scream through a bunch of music until I have blown my wad. That partially happens due to my performance schedule not allowing as many spare afternoons that I would like to have. So when I get one, I tend to take an "epic" ride on my voice and then complain about the recovery involved for the next day or two. Obviously, it would be better to set some parameters and time limits to have a practice schedule that is designed to accomplish everything I need to accomplish without going to the extreme of overtraining.
I was in a pre-professional company for dancers under 18 and I'd have a good chance at being pro right now if I hadn't ditched it for mtn bike racing. But yes, I can totally agree with you on how intense performances are.
I have tremendous respect for dancers - especially ballet dancers. Talk about an athletic event (mixed in with some art to boot). Hours and hours a day of rehearsal, learning new choreography and then performing at night. I imagine that you set some excellent training habits due to your dancing that has carried over to your racing (minus lifting the ballerinas over your head on the stage). I am always in awe at the opera house when I watch the dancers rehearse and perform. No need to tell you about the physical effort required. You've lived it.
The singing voice simply cannot sustain the kind of schedule that a dancer faces. I would equate the singing voice in performance more with the pitching arm in a baseball game. A starting pitcher is in the rotation system to give the arm the adequate rest between games before throwing at that intensity for the duration of several innings. Singing a major role in an opera requires about two to three days recovery before it is ready to "pitch" again.
Another thing...riding at 85%-90% of your max hr doesn't necessarily improve your LT in the best way. It will if your LT is about 92% of your max hr. The point is, everyone's LT is a different percentage of their max hr and it's most efficient to determine your LT and train right below (or at) that heart rate. Training above your LT yeilds diminishing returns in terms of increasing wattage vs. recovery time.
Sticking with cycling, how do I exactly determine my correct "LT" and then train right below that heart rate? I need to do some more reading on all of that. As I said, year one on the mountain bike was simply to get used to riding in the demands of off trail terrain with all the climbs, descents, mud, roots, logs. No doubt about it, doing it about 3-5 days a week for most of 2002 got me into a different kind of shape than I have ever been in before. Perhaps targeting some more specific heart rates for overall conditioning would have a residual effect on the muscles invovled in singing. Regardless, I want to work on both.
BB |
| re: Continuation of Lactic Acid Threshold discussion... | Radar MCM #35
Dec 28, 2002 7:04 PM | | Sticking with cycling, how do I exactly determine my correct "LT" and then train right below that heart rate?
There's a few different ways. I'm assuming you have a hr monitor. If you have a trainer, warm up then gradually increase your heart rate until your breathing is noticeably heavier at a certain hr. this can determine LT.
Also, you can do a 30 minute time trial (all-out, after warm up of course) and take the average heart rate for the last 20 minutes of it (just hit the monitor's start button 10 mins into it). This second method tends to give a heart rate 2-5 beats higher than your LT.
Radar MCM #35 |
| re: Continuation of Lactic Acid Threshold discussion... | Andy12
Dec 29, 2002 6:12 AM | | I am interested to know where this 30 minute all out time trial to measure LT came from. I am an exercise physiologist and the basic lay definition of LT would be the last work rate where fatigue will ensure from inadequate fuel supply, i.e. an hour if all you had available was carbohydrate (clearly not actually possible) or considerably longer on a fat CHO mixture (the reality). A 30 minute time trial may give you a rough indication of fatigue threshold or critical power (concepts I don't think I've seen discussed here) but under almost no circumstances will it give you even the remotest indication of your LT. Also to suggest a measure will overestimate by 2-5 beats/min, have you any idea of the day-to-day or beat-to-beat variability in heart rate. More importantly probably the effect of temperature ammount of 'background' work your body is doing? I know this post doesn't really actually help as such but I really would like to know where the concept of the 30 minute time trial came from and what it suggests its actually trying to measure. As for the heart rate problems, I think you all know the limitations of actually using heart rate as a definition of intensity, but equally you all know the expense involved of a more relaible alternative, which is unfortunate. |
| re: Continuation of Lactic Acid Threshold discussion... | Radar MCM #35
Dec 29, 2002 11:26 AM | | The 30 min TT comes from Joe Friel, another exercise physiologist (as a side note, I'm majoring in exercise physiology next year). This TT is very variable obcviously, but it does give a good idea of LT. I've had alot of good races and bad races last season, ranging from 75 mins to 120 mins, but they all were right around a 178 avg hr. Friel recommends taking 5 bpm off this number to estimate your LT. The zones according to a 173bpm LT are just right for me.
Radar MCM #35 |
| re: Continuation of Lactic Acid Threshold discussion... | Andy12
Dec 30, 2002 3:06 AM | | So you are suggesting that you can sustain the same heart rate that exhausts you in a 30 minute time trial for 75 to 120 minutes during a race? Does that not suggest that something other that the basic metabolic demand is driving your heart rate up to that level during a race. I'll have to state it again, your heart rate during an all out 30 minute time trial has nothing at all to do with your LT it is totally and utterly unrelated. |
| re: Continuation of Lactic Acid Threshold discussion... | Radar MCM #35
Dec 31, 2002 12:26 PM | | yes, I always sustain a higher hr in races than training, despite being motivated for almost all my training sessions. I'm not saying a 30 min TT is directly related to your LT, I never said that. I'm just quoting it from Joe Friel as a way to GET AN IDEA of your LT. It's not like after you do it a little digital srceen pops out from your legs and tells you a magic number.
Radar MCM #35 |
| re: Continuation of Lactic Acid Threshold discussion... | Andy12
Jan 2, 2003 6:16 AM | | Calm yourself down, theres no need to shout. I never doubted you thought it was a rough guide rather than a direct measurement. However, my problem with the reccomendation is that it is total nonsense and not even a rough guide. A 30 minute all out time trial is by definition the pace which will 'exhaust' you in 30 minutes (otherwise it wasn't 'all-out'). The pace equivalent to your LT is the pace you can sustain for hours on end. The kinetic response of your heart rate takes minutes so you are not underestimating the cardiac demands of the time trial. Therefore the average heart rate toward the end of a 30 minute time trial will be representative of that fatiguing intensity and have nothing whatsoever to do with your LT. |
| re: Continuation of Lactic Acid Threshold discussion... | Colorado Premier Training
Dec 27, 2002 10:26 AM | | Wow, "BB"
You and I have quite the same pattern of interests going on! And from MY standpoint, it's NOT "way out there"!
I saw your message and felt I could instantly reply because of my wealth of knowledge in physiology (I work for and have worked for the US Olympic Committe and the Guatemalan Olympic Committee both as an exercise physiologist, I have been an elite cyclist for 12 years and I own a coaching business where I coach cyclists).
Although it struck me interesting. I have also been an "Elite" singer for about 13 years or so. I've sang in all state stuff and all eastern choirs through high school and have studied it some (before switching over to physiology) in college at Colorado State Univ.
All my family and friends are musicians and I've always found it strange or at least intruiging that singers and musicians (that I know) are always interested in the science of things, wheather it be physiology or acoustics.
I have to be honest, I didn't read your message thouroughly nor did I read any of the other responses, but I can say that when cycling, for example, if you work out hard - you're working those muscles. There is a general fatigue that can/will be associated with that but I wouldn't worry about it unless your training for the Tour (de France).
Cycling (aerobic training) and singing has always been a good combination to do. I Strongly reccommend the continuation of it as it serves as breathing exercises. In my opinion, singing IS A SPORT. Not many people know the physical demands of singing! It's HARD - especially opera and doing as a profession.
The 85-90% of max training WILL improve lactate tolerance, but that's generalized (for the general athlete, that's a GOOD guess). An Elite athlete will have an anaerobic threshold above 90% of max - Which is what separates the fast from the Lance Armstrongs.
The comment about "sessions should be conducted once a week and commence eight weeks before a major competition." is a little cookie cutter for my liking...
Please, at any time, email me as I don't check the forum here that often. For my curiosity, where have you performed?
Happy holidays,
Steve Owens
http://www.coloradopremiertraining.com
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| re: Continuation of Lactic Acid Threshold discussion... | BruceBrown
Dec 28, 2002 2:51 AM | | I saw your message and felt I could instantly reply because of my wealth of knowledge in physiology (I work for and have worked for the US Olympic Committe and the Guatemalan Olympic Committee both as an exercise physiologist, I have been an elite cyclist for 12 years and I own a coaching business where I coach cyclists). Although it struck me interesting. I have also been an "Elite" singer for about 13 years or so. I've sang in all state stuff and all eastern choirs through high school and have studied it some (before switching over to physiology) in college at Colorado State Univ.
Those are some pretty impressive credentials, Steve. Glad to hear you have some years under your belt of doing some singing as well. That helps in any discussion as to the physiology and feel of singing. You have an article on your website that is probably right up my alley and I plan on going to read it later this morning. It is entitled "What the hell is V02 Max anyway?".
All my family and friends are musicians and I've always found it strange or at least intruiging that singers and musicians (that I know) are always interested in the science of things, wheather it be physiology or acoustics.
Music itself is very mathematical. The notes, rhythms, rests, time signatures, etc... all must add up to fit the parameters of musical notation. Our interest in the science of things is not too far removed at all. In terms of physiology, most singers in the American university system who graduate with vocal degrees are required to take a vocal pedagogy course where we look at lots of little dirty pictures of the larynx. The basic goal is to give an overview of the physiology of the larynx. As I said - it is very basic and a lot of how that information is applied hinges on the abilities of the teacher and the material provided to the class. I had one semester of vocal pedagogy as an undergraduate and two years of the class as a graduate student. The teacher I had in graduate school who taught the class was about as good at it gets.
In terms of acoustics, an opera singer (or the teachers of correct opera singing technique) are interested in some basic acoustics because the acoustic formant (on a spectral measurement) required for the human voice to sing through, over and above an orchestra of 50 - 80 instruments needs to be found if one is to be heard and to have a career. There is a "hole" - so to speak - in terms of spectral measurement of acoustical formant in an orchestra where very little noise is being made by the instruments of an orchestra. It is in this "hole" that what we know as the modern day operatic sound is trained to fit. In other words, we do our "beautiful screaming" through this hole. Now, in theory, there is plenty of sound being made in what is really not a "hole" at all, but for the sake of the description let's just say that there is "less instrumental traffic" in the perceived "hole" than in other areas. Singing a formant that is above or below this particular "hole" has the human voice competing with too much noise to be heard well enough to fill an auditorium without the use of electrical amplification. That's why the the vocal techniques of Madonna, Michael Jackson, Willy Nelson, Celine Dion and on and on through the popular music venue would not be heard through an orchestra without amplification. Likewise, their vocal techniques lend themselves to sounding better via electronic amplification and creating a very "natural", speech like sound. On the other hand, the vocal technique of Tom Jones has just about the required oomph to be able to carry. A couple of tweaks and he could have been one of the best operatic tenors of the past 100 years. However, I love him - as does the world - for what he has given to music. I was just pointing out that all of the material was there to turn him into one of the Lance Armstrong's of the opera world.
Cycling (aerobic training) and singing has always been a good combination to do. I Strongly reccommend the continuation of it as it serves as breathing exercises. In my opinion, singing IS A SPORT. Not many people know the physical demands of singing! It's HARD - especially opera and doing as a profession.
Believe me, I know the importance of keeping the body in an aerobic state to help in breath control and general conditioning. I got off the track in 1999, 2000 and 2001 for some reason basically due to a lack of the type of exercise I needed to maintain good aerobic conditioning. I can also tell you how difficult it was to sustain long vocal phrases during that time. Now I am back in terms of aerobic conditioning and started this entire thread in hopes of learning how I can improve that and fine tune it - as well as maintain it.
The 85-90% of max training WILL improve lactate tolerance, but that's generalized (for the general athlete, that's a GOOD guess). An Elite athlete will have an anaerobic threshold above 90% of max - Which is what separates the fast from the Lance Armstrongs.
It also separates the cream of the crop from the rest of the crop in professional opera singing. It would be interesting and fun to know the data for the best of the best singers to see if they - in addition to their natural and wonderful voices - have an edge due to the muscles involved being able to tolerate or buffer more lactate than other singers. I imagine the only way to test this theory is to round up some of the world's best and do some sort of testing to determine some things. I happen to be friends with several of the world's top opera singers and could corral them into some sort of testing environment, but have no idea what it is we would be testing. In other words, I'm still closer to the 'clueless' end of the discussion at this point. How does one even measure these things? Do you have to go into a lab to be hooked up and run through some tests to get the results?
Please, at any time, email me as I don't check the forum here that often. For my curiosity, where have you performed?
I'll do that, Steve. I will post a dirty little picture below in hopes that you see it and can comment from the physiology point of view about the muscles and whether or not the same holds true for them in terms of thresholds as larger muscles used in an event like running or cycling. I have performed with opera companies in Houston, New York, Sacramento, Knoxville, Jackson, New Jersey, Eugene, Des Moines, Minneapolis, Vienna, Innsbruck and on and on.... . I currently am in my 8th full season of singing in Vienna, but I started singing in Vienna back in 1992 as a guest artist.
With all the discussion of physiology and general training of the body in terms of aerobic work, I post this one picture to identify some of the intrinsic muscles related to the production of vocal sound. In addition, I could post a picture of the extrinsic muscles, but it appears I can only post one picture at a time on this site. (Maybe I am clueless about that as well?) I imagine that simply by the act of singing as a profession, my muscles involved in the process are in pretty good shape. I also imagine that some things could be done to get them in better tip-top shape as well as instituting a regimen that includes a routine of rest per week (some off days) as is done in other training disciplines such as cycling, running, etc... . Obviously I take days off from using my voice for singing, but specific training for performances or incorporating proper rest days has been pretty haphazard for me over the past 15 years in my chosen profession. Likewise, my treating my body like an athlete for operatic singing has been haphazard over those years. I'm learning more this year than all the other years combined thanks to cycling.
Here's the dirty little picture that shows some of the intrinsic muscles of the larynx used in singing: |
| So if, I`m goint to race in 3 months, do I need to start | francisco
Dec 29, 2002 7:31 AM | | my interval and anaerobic training 8 weeks, before?. Is that true?. It makes a lot of sense, the explanation of the alkaline buffering ability in the blood.
Thanks!
bye |
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