|   Roland's new Fork | MP
Mar 23, 2002 5:05 PM | | Does anyone have thoughts on Roland Green's new green colored fork at sea otter?? Is it going to be lighter?, stiffer??
It looks to possibly have 30mm stantions and increased size of the lowers around the bushings and the brake arch. It still has the carbon steerer/crown.
Any thoughts??? |
| Any Pictures? nm | Adam
Mar 23, 2002 8:19 PM | | |
| picture... | AZ-X
Mar 23, 2002 9:55 PM | | |
| this thread is | Richard Simmons
Mar 26, 2002 8:35 AM | | hmm |
| Current men's series leader is... | AZ-X
Mar 23, 2002 10:13 PM | | Sir Bart: |
| How does he do it? | Cloxxki
Mar 24, 2002 4:30 AM | | I know from direct experience that Bart is a more than gifted rider, but isn't it supposed to be a pain, SID+discs? These guys go about the same speed as downhillers, and they brake LATE.
Brings me to the question, what do pro's know we don't? Or is he just swapping forks every race, to be sure? Surely the huge flex as reported from reviews, would make it unpleasant to go FAST with it in combination with discs? |
| They go fast, but not as fast as downhillers... | wfl3
Mar 24, 2002 5:38 AM | | ...Downhillers are surpassing 60mph on certain stretches of some courses, their equipment is much heavier also. I bet Bart's fork gets rebuilt every race or so anyway just in case. |
| True, the only XC guys that can really fly downhill are.... | Boss Hogg
Mar 25, 2002 3:25 PM | | Johnny T and Rune Hoydahl. Those boys can fly. JT was just amazing to watch. It was a thing of beauty. Some of the others can descend also, but not like a downhiller. |
| Bart is a sponsored pro who doesn't need to worry about his fork | AZ-X
Mar 24, 2002 6:15 AM | | not lasting more than a few races without needing work. He also most likely has several identically setup bikes. When you race for a big company team like Giant, you have several bikes setup identically in case something happens to one--like road teams often do. You don't need to have "your fork" or "your bike" worked on necessarily--you just swap it out with one that does. I remember when I met Missy Giove and Miles Rockwell once in a race here in Arizona. I walked back with them to the Volvo-Cannondale trailer and they had at least 3 bikes with their names on them...
I've since seen that with many teams. Some teams obviously can't afford it though...
Another thing that I'm betting is that, just like all the racers that ride SIDs with V-brakes, he doesn't mind the flex much because he generally races on dusty/grassy "road" courses like the one at Sea Otter. It's almost a joke to call that a "mountain" race. And people wonder why more pros don't use full suspension bikes... Most could ride that course and win on a rigid fork and maybe some fat, UST/tubeless tires... |
| Bart is a sponsored pro who doesn't need to worry about his fork | Cloxxki
Mar 24, 2002 6:52 AM | | Bart used his NST to win the Beach race last week, I think to save him (at least one) hardtail at Sea Otter.
And I meant that they are going down as fast as downhillers would on the same bikes. The pro's I've riden against (being lapped yes), are really good rider technically, average Joe may think he's a downhill pro by talent, but going that fast, lap after lap with your heartrate thought the roof, not out of excitement but because of power output, is really something else. Also, wearing bodyarmor or making mistakes is not an option. And not all races are at Sea Otter. Come look at the Belgian courses, see how dusty those are. |
| Wow, Cloxxki, you've got "NST" on the brain! Don't you mean... | AZ-X
Mar 24, 2002 7:09 AM | | that Bart used his Giant NRS full suspension bike to win the beach race? Could be wrong, but that's my suspicion... |
| Haha, would it be the boos, or my desinterest in NRS? nm | Cloxxki
Mar 24, 2002 8:41 AM | | |
| Youve obviously never ridden the course!! | Boss Hogg
Mar 25, 2002 8:24 AM | | I would love to see you ride two laps on the Sea Otter course with a fully rigid bike. You would be moaning and grooaning.... beleive me. Your hands would fall off.
While the Sea Otter does have its parts akin to "road" it does have some extremely rough parts that take its toll.
The wide fire road parts are what allow this course to absorb thousands of riders. Its probably more than 55% singletrack though.
And while the top pros are doing it in 2 hrs 15 min., the experts are taking 2.5-3 hrs. Its a brutal race. My upper body is more tired than my legs. Thats how rough it it. Lots of fun rough downhill singletrack.
I think it has about 4000+ feet of climbing as well. So...its a true MTB course. |
| Nope never ridden it..., | AZ-X
Mar 25, 2002 8:46 AM | | but I've watched video footage of the entire race for the last three years. Compare it to the AZ state championship course in Flaggstaff (Northern Arizona) where the first 2 miles are all climbing at a starting elevation of 7000 or so feet in a dry, rocky forest and you might get an understanding of what I'm talking about... I've seen people do that on a rigid bike too. STANDARD Arizona trails are the epitomy of "forearm builders," that's for sure...
It's a great venue and a good ride with plenty of ruts in the mix, but I'd still be willing to try it with a Fat Fred 2.35 tubeless setup at low pressure like Jan Gerrit uses on a rigid bike.
I've ridden in Arizona (raced here for 2 years), California, Colorado, Ontario, Maryland, Virginia, Costa Rica and even Nigeria. All sorts of terrain in those places. The Sea Otter course is definitly not that rough.
If you'd like to call me "wrong again" on this one, be my guest... |
| By the way, not just "OLN" footage either... (nm) | AZ-X
Mar 25, 2002 8:50 AM | | |
| I dont think video footage will give you a good idea of the | Boss Hogg
Mar 25, 2002 10:16 AM | | stutter, roots and many embedded rocks. If you rode it you would change your mind. Spectators never get a good feel for things. Especially when youre spectating from your couch.
Im not saying its impossible on a rigid bike, it would just be extremely rough. I know people do it with a rigid fork and its gotta cost them some time and give them some good jolts. I accidentally left my fork locked out on a short rough descent and it about beat the hell out of me. Any time you have thousands of riders on a course it gets rough. By the way, Ive ridden many places as well, including the full national circuit and Moab, Durango, Crested Butte, Vermont (one of the most technically challenging), etc, etc.
All I have to say is this: Ride it before you say things like that. Kinda like the "fork lockout" statement below. Trying to make facts out of assumptions can ruin one's credibility.
Where did you get the footage of the race? I would like to see it. |
| I rode it yesterday, and it is NOT rough | laffeaux
Mar 25, 2002 10:25 AM | | I think the Sea Otter is great example of where you do NOT need full suspension. There were a couple of spots that are rough, but I'd say the total distance where FS would have been nice was 75 yards or less.
If that course is your idea of rough, you need to get out more. It's not "buttery" smooth, but a HT is more than adaquate for that course. |
| Can you name a big race thats rougher? | Boss Hogg
Mar 25, 2002 11:05 AM | | Its a tough call on whether or not Full Suspension is necessary.
Did you ride it or race it yesterday? Its definitly not a "road course. I dont think you could have ridden it yesterday as there wasnt much of a break between classes all day. If you just rode around the sidelines spectating, thats a different story. I never said it was ULTRA rough, its got some serious chop and some nice embedded rocks which would pummel a full-rigid.
I chose a FS just for the roughness. A hardtail would be better on the climbs for sure, but I sure was flying by the guys on their hardtails on the downhills. I could back off on the climbs a bit and reel them right in almost effortlessly on the next descent where they were braking and ricocheting/bouncing around I could fly right by them on the gas.
If you raced it you know it was rough. Sure theres rougher trails, but I cant think of a race thats rougher and Ive done many. Vermont is not rougher, just slick, slimy and off-camber. Definitely more technically challenging. |
| Can't say that I follow racing enough to judge. | laffeaux
Mar 25, 2002 12:06 PM | | I raced yesterday in the beginners class. I can't say that I follow racing enough to judge how it compares to other courses, but as far as trails that I ride (10 years of riding), I'd have to say that it fit into the bouncy, but by no means overly rough category.
In the beginner classes, it seemed that the riders' skill was the limiting factor, not the bike. In several of the downhill single track sections I wanted to pass the FS bikes in front of me (I was on a HT) but had no room to do so. And I'm pretty there were no bikes itching to get around me on the downhills (other than the riders, that like me where stuck behind a slow leader).
My final time reflected my lack of training, however I'll ride a hardtail again next year, since the course is plenty smooth enough to do so. |
| Youre probably going to be stuck behind some seriously slow | Boss Hogg
Mar 25, 2002 2:30 PM | | people in the beginners class so an FS bike wouldnt pay off. And there is always gonna be slow descenders on FS bikes that you could pass on a hardtail. Thats just a difference in skill levels.
I had to make a lot of my passes off to the sides if they wouldnt get out of the way. They hear you right on them sometimes buzzing their tires but they refuse to move. Sometimes you had to "stuff" them to the outside in the corners. The lapped traffic is a pain. |
| Look... I'm not trying to diminish you're accomplishment in | AZ-X
Mar 25, 2002 10:39 AM | | riding and probably racing that course-I'm sure it must have been tough regardless, but 55% singletrack--even technical singletrack--and then 45% like what we see in those pics and what I've seen on video is not as rough or challenging as many trails and courses that most of us ride every day. I hope you can agree to this. If you've ridden in Vermont and Colorado, I'm not sure why we're arguing this point at all. Even easier (technically speaking) courses will be grueling under race conditions. You have to go all out and a 36 mile road race could be grueling too. That's why it's called a "race".
I rode rigid for my first 3 years of mountaibiking in the Appalachian mountains of the East Coast and in Ontario, Canada before I could afford my first bike with "suspension" (a Wheeler with an RS Quadra fork). I don't think I'd have a problem riding that course at all. I think you shouldn't make assumptions about riding rigid either. We all used to do it--unless you're new to the game and never had to experience it.
The footage came from my friend Gary in Colorado who has been to the race and ridden the course every year now for the last few years. He has ridden all over as well and he also says that it's a lot like many (in his words) "roady NORBA-type courses" courses he's ridden. So, I'm just calling it like I see it. It's my opinion and you're more than entitled to yours as well. |
| Yeah, I rode fully rigid from '83 to most of 1990. | Boss Hogg
Mar 25, 2002 12:01 PM | | Yes, there are tougher trails to be found. No doubt. But for a race this was pretty rough. Its not a road course for sure. There is only one downhill section that is brainless and its about a quarter mile long.
There is a long climb that is a very smooth fire road, and you do ride on the actual Laguna Seca race track each lap for about 1/2 mile. Semi-slicks are the call. |
| DOH! "Your" not "you're"!! (nm) | AZ SRAM-head
Mar 25, 2002 3:53 PM | | |
| Also about the lockout... | AZ-X
Mar 25, 2002 10:58 AM | | was it for the fork or the frame shock or for both. That was unclear from your statement. I've seen the preproduction fork lockout in person and it looked not at all like the one on Green's bike. They could have changed it since last year. I have also seen remote lockouts for both a SID and Fox rear shock as well on team bikes. Many teams practice here in Arizona in the off season and use our early racing season as prep for the World Cup and NORBA seasons that start later in the year, so we get to see a lot out here before everyone else does.
I have yet to see a fork lockout AND frame shock lockout controlled from the same lever. They could definitel exist, but I was just going on the stuff that I've seen so far. It was an assumption and I've already thanked you for pointing out my error if I was wrong. |
| Its just a remote lockout lever for the rear Fox shock. nm | Boss Hogg
Mar 25, 2002 11:08 AM | | |
| Unclear? | Boss Hogg
Mar 25, 2002 11:24 AM | | It says rear shock lockout right in my header. Oh well.
Maybe this explains some other statements of yours!! :) |
| This is the original statemet I was trying to sort out... | AZ-X
Mar 25, 2002 11:31 AM | | http://forums13.consumerreview.com/crforum?14@@.ef1cd32/15
I was just trying to say that they don't have one, single lever that can control both lockout mechanisms at (fork and frame) at the same time. I then added what I've previously seen on the team bikes. Sorry for any confusion. |
| Doh, "Flagstaff" and "definitely" - you tell 'em, bro (nm) | pedalAZ
Mar 25, 2002 10:57 AM | | |
| LOL! Are we going to start correcting eachother's errors now?:) | AZ-X
Mar 25, 2002 11:01 AM | | While we're at it, that course is technically in Williams and not Flagstaff... Just to be more precise! |
| Just funnin' ya . . . hey | pedalAZ
Mar 25, 2002 11:12 AM | | No comment on our family photo a few days ago? I had to dig pretty deep in the archives to find that one, bro'!!!! Thought it would be fun to keep the masses entertained . . .
BTW, check out Passion for some great pics from the Passionite's AZ Spring Fling III. There are three from Milagrosa, on Thursday, that suggest it is an epic ride with South Mountain quality rocky steeps.
Still no go on the digicam . . . |
| I just let that one go because I didn't want to get into it... | AZ-X
Mar 25, 2002 11:27 AM | | and I was pretty busy. Very funny! It would be more accurate if one head was African though! ;o)
Those pics in the Passion section are very cool. I would think more than twice about doing the kind of drops/rock shelves that a couple of those guys were doing. I would definitely want more travel... |
| OK, but that would have been a tough picture to find! ;) nm | pedalAZ
Mar 25, 2002 11:40 AM | | |
| It is each other's, not "eachother's." Sorry, I couldn't resist | inde
Mar 25, 2002 10:30 PM | | |
| That's ok. I make a lot of typos. Sometimes I correct them..., | AZ-X
Mar 25, 2002 11:15 PM | | other times I just don't bother. Someone actually bashed me a couple of days ago, just because I sometimes take the time to go back and make spelling or grammatical corrections. Whatever makes people happy...
I don't mind being corrected at all! :o) |
| It's gotta be the gloves...nm | Bogus
Mar 24, 2002 6:52 AM | | nm |
| Is this the new Black Box fork? Why 80's green? nm | Adam
Mar 24, 2002 6:44 AM | | |
| Don't know... As far as colour goes, it may just be a play... | AZ-X
Mar 24, 2002 7:11 AM | | on his name. |
| Here's another shot... | AZ-X
Mar 24, 2002 7:18 AM | | It obviously has the carbon crown of the new SID Race. Notice that Ryder Hesdejal is racing exclusively on a Manitou Black Elite Air nowadays... |
| Roland should be excluded from races!!! | Cloxxki
Mar 24, 2002 8:51 AM | | He's not riding, he's flying!!! Look at that pic, it's proven now! |
| Well, the guy with no. 87 at least... m, | Cloxxki
Mar 24, 2002 1:36 PM | | |
| A good picture of the fork | MmAN
Mar 24, 2002 11:10 AM | | Here is a closer pic of the new fork |
| A good picture of the fork | MmAN
Mar 24, 2002 11:11 AM | | Also notice the new lockouts on the handlebar, they look like only 1 cable housing is running to each. |
| There is only a fork lockout on the handlebar... | AZ-X
Mar 24, 2002 11:15 AM | | Their racing Fuels have a manual lockout lever on the shock body itself or they forgo that for a damper adjustment knob. |
| Wrong again... thats a rear shock lockout on the handlebar. | Boss Hogg
Mar 25, 2002 8:29 AM | | I personally flicked that switch at the Trek tent. Pretty slick. |
| It must be new. Thanks. (nm) | AZ-X
Mar 25, 2002 8:39 AM | | |
| Good pic! (nm) | AZ-X
Mar 24, 2002 11:16 AM | | |
| Hey! It looks like Green is using those little tiny barends...nm | AZ-X
Mar 24, 2002 12:24 PM | | |
| Definitely a new lower casting... | GP
Mar 25, 2002 12:30 AM | | ...note the ridge around the seal/bushing area at the top of the lowers, and the more extensive scalloping of the arch - my "mere-mortal" SID Race lowers don't look like that.
I'd say the ridges indicate that they reduced the outside diameter of the lower casting, but needed to keep the original larger diameter for the seal housing and bushing areas. Just a guess...
How much does R.G. weigh? He might be the ultimate weight weenie, riding a fork like this, while Ryder pushes around a comparative "boat anchor" Manitou Black Elite Air...
GP |
| And so, Roland and Alison take the titles... | AZ-X
Mar 24, 2002 11:41 PM | | SEA OTTER CLASSIC, Monterey, CA
March 21-24
Mountain-Bike Stage Race
Cross Country
Women
1. Caroline Alexander (GB), British National, 36 miles in 2:37:34
2. Alison Dunlap, Luna Chix, at 0:02
3. Barbara Blatter (Swi), Specialized, 0:16
4. Alison Sydor (Can), Trek-Volkswagen, at 5:38
5. Chrissy Redden (Can), Subaru-Gary Fisher, s.t.
6. Jimena Florit (Arg), RLX-Polo Sport, at 5:39
7. Susan Haywood, Trek-Volkswagen, at 7:45
8. Sue Thomas (GB) British National, at 9:21
9. Mary Grigson (Aus), Subaru-Gary Fisher, at 10:12
9. Mary McConneloug, Jamba Juice, s.t.
Final Overall Standings
1. Dunlap, 4:02:30
2. Alexander, at 0:29
3. Blatter, at 1:05
4. Sydor, at 6:01
5. Redden, at 6:07
6. Florit, at 6:31
7. Haywood, at 9:29
8. Grigson, at 12:05
9. Thomas, at 12:26
10. Lanie Mason, Cane Creek, at 13:06
Men
1. Roland Green (Can), Trek-Volkswagen, 36 miles, at 2:12:20
2. Bart Brentjens (Nl), Giant, at 0:46
3. Filip Meirhaeghe (B), Specialized, at 2:12
4. Ryder Hesjedal (Can), Subaru-Gary Fisher, at 2:13
5. Geoff Kabush (Can), Kona, at 3:26
6. Paul Rowney (Aus), Yeti-Pear Izumi, at 3:26
7. Rune Hoydahl (N), Giant, at 3:49
8. Mathieu Toulouse (Can), Gears, at 4:26
9. Chris Sheppard (Can), Haro-Lee Dungarees, at 4:27
10. Christophe Dupouey (F), Giant, at 4:27
Final Overall Standings
1. Green, 3:32:32
2. Brentjens, at 0:38
3. Hesjedal, at 2:18
4. Meirhaeghe, at 3:17
5. Hoydahl, at 5:06
6. Kabush, at 5:15
7. Toulouse, at 6:03
8. Sheppard, at 6:08
9. Adrian Bonilla (CR), Café de Costa Rica-Pizza Hut, at 7:05
10. Liam Killeen (GB), Subaru-Gary Fisher, at 7:36
Much as I like the World Championships to be in the hands of North Americans again after so many years, I hope that Sir Bart, Meirhaeghe, Hoydal and others (the other Canadian, Ryder, too!) keep their strong form so that Roland doesn't just walk over the field again this year. It's great to see Brentjens at the top again after his problems with Specialized and after that terrible accident that he suffered. He was one of the most humble multiple champions that I can remember. It's also good to see Caroline Alexander doing so well (even though Dunlap took the overall Sea Otter title this year) with Specialized after so many years of bad luck and equipment failures that seem to have prevented her from reaching her full potential. Hopefully she Blatter, Sydor, Florit and others will give Dunlap a good run for her money as well. Dunlap's hold over the rest of the field seems a bit more tenuous than Roland's though...
Here's Roland taking Bart's jersey to add to his collection:
Here's a pic of the Lunachix's team tent from the "Passion" forum. I guess it's true that Dunlap is still refusing to ride a Blurr because of the weight. I believe that is her Superlight next to Marla Streb's downhill rig on the left side of the rack:
For some strange reason now I have a strong craving for orange juice on ice... ;o) |
| What did Alison ride for the race? | mtnbkaz
Mar 25, 2002 7:06 AM | | Doesn't surprise me that she's ditching the Blur but it also wouldn't surprise me if she ditched FS altogether. She pretty much rode her hardtail all of last year (even on rockier courses than Sea Otter's smooth fire roads). Anyone see what she rode during Sunday's race? |
| Looks like it may have been a Chameleon hardtail... | AZ-X
Mar 25, 2002 7:58 AM | | Sydor was also using the new SID: |
| I'm surprised she's using a Fox Fork | mtnbkaz
Mar 25, 2002 12:51 PM | | I'm thinking about replacing the Mars1 with a Fox this fall but I'm balking on the weight gain. I'm surprised to see someone like Alison running a Fox on a hardtail. Guess it just goes to show the impact of weight on a race bike isn't as much as we might often think. |
| I think you are right, to an extent... | AZ-X
Mar 25, 2002 1:04 PM | | I think that she's running a Fox fork, because that is the lightest that they have to offer her right now and the team is sponsored by Fox Forx. She doesn't have a choice in that matter. You can almost bet on her being one of the testers for the lighter weight/race version that will come soon though... |
| Barbara Blatter is on the new fork as well... | AZ-X
Mar 25, 2002 8:43 AM | | On the far left:
Thanks to http://www.canadiancyclist.com for these pics.
Filip Meirhaeghe has one too (Specialized, right) and here's Andreas Hestler on a Marathon S--just to keep this post unbiased... ;-)
Many pros using the Mars Super as well including Chrissy Redden (below) and Bart Brentjens:
Here's Ryder Hesdejel leading Roland and Bart:
It seems also that Caroline Alexander is no longer with Specialized, but racing for the British National Team, riding Trek bikes and using SRAM components:
 |
| What's with the tight "socks" on Ryder's shoes? nm | pedalAZ
Mar 25, 2002 11:06 AM | | |
| Those are called booties. | Boss Hogg
Mar 25, 2002 11:20 AM | | Different from the word used in say... "bootie call".
Since your from AZ youre allowed some slack on this particular question!! |
| Another thing I'm not sure of... By the way,no lockout to shock | AZ-X
Mar 25, 2002 11:23 AM | | on Roland's bike in this pick from a remote lever. I "assume" he has a PURE damper with a manual lockout, and that the lever is only to control the shock on his Fuel 100. They really did not have remote lockouts for those frames just a couple of weeks ago... Honest! :o)
Here's a pick of Roland and another of Alison Sydor using the "tight socks":
Would be nice if someone could tell us the reason for these "booties" being used... Windbreakers/resistance? I was told it was VERY windy at times during the TT and XC races.
As you can see from this pic, Alison Sydor has TWO very distinct lockout levers on her bars. I'm just "assuming" that one is for the fork and the other for the Fuel's shock--but of course I wasn't there to flick the levers personally: |
| No, I think the left hand lever releases the booties off her | Boss Hogg
Mar 25, 2002 11:35 AM | | feet after she warms up! You can see the cable going down her leg. Just kidding. I actually never saw a Trek with two lockout levers on the bars. I only saw one with it linked to the rear shock.
I didnt spend much time looking at them.
We actually stopped to check otu the carbon parts all over the Fuel frame and then noticed the nice little Fox remote lever up on the bars. |
| Bootie Call - the real story | pedalAZ
Mar 25, 2002 11:36 AM | | Top Ten Reasons for white booties on race day
10. Tribute to Joe Namath
9. Allows coach to verify foot dab count
8. Gadar transmitters
7. Hide logos from show companies not paying sponsor money
6. Prevents straps from catching on branches, other bikes, etc. while riding or in hike-a-bike secions
5. Can't be used for condoms any more; there's a hole for the pedal cleat
4. Cold feet (at Sea Otter???)
3. White's OK between Memorial Day and Labor Day (but March 24?)
2. Nerd alert
and the Number 1 reason,
OK, add your own here . . . really, why the heck ARE they wearing these things? |
| The truth comes out! Its Al Sydor not Alyson. | Boss Hogg
Mar 25, 2002 11:54 AM | | It almost looks like "Alyson" Sydor has some sort of "package"!
I always thought her face looked like a boy and her build was masculine, but this closeup crotch shot might start some sort of investigation.
Is she just a male expert rider that had a sex change?
Should we call her Big Al? |
| because they look cool !! | rude_e13yahoo.com
Mar 25, 2002 1:42 PM | | That type of bootie is not for warmth but for aerodynamics.
Seaotter was prety windy and there is not much cover, So being areo might be something they were thinking about?
Maybe they should be wearing skin suits and pointy aero helmets?
By the way the course beat me up - literaly - all the decents were covered w/ holes, deep holes. And so fast that all you can do is sit back and try to hang on. My inner thighs are bruised from trying to control my bike on those descents, I am getting rid of my SLR. |
| THATS IMPOSSIBLE!! Its a road course according to AZ X Racer! | Boss Hogg
Mar 25, 2002 1:51 PM | | How could it beat you up? |
| I've tried to be restrained, but don't get me started on REALLY | AZ-X
Mar 25, 2002 3:05 PM | | rough race courses... I'd go get pictures, but you wouldn't be able to tell just from them, according to your mantra, anyway... |
| Please let us see them. | Boss Hogg
Mar 25, 2002 3:19 PM | | The thing Im really aching to see is you flying through the bumps at sea otter with a fully rigid bike while youre trying to slow for the next corner adn trying to keep up with the guy on FS. That sounds entertaining to me. Is that a possibility? |
| I think you forget or just don't know that I now ride an FS bike | AZ-X
Mar 25, 2002 4:06 PM | | with discs. You obviously don't know what I ride now, what I've ridden in the past, or what I'm comparing the course to. Let it go.
You also have may never have tried a fully rigid Ti or steel bike with big, plush tubeless tires. I've had a chance to ride a Ti singlespeed conversion up in Pinetop, Arizona with Crossmaxes and Python/Mosquito tubeless tires. There is a lot to be said for it.
I chose this pic only from a thread on the Passion forum today because it shows just a mild example of what TRUE racecourse terrain is like around these parts (I'd say many parts of Texas and Colorado are similarly gnarly). The other terrain pics are generally too extreme for XC racing these days: |
| That actually looks pretty smooth. I thought you had some rough | Boss Hogg
Mar 25, 2002 4:14 PM | | trails.
Also, in case you werent aware, we are talking about XC. I can give you some pictures of DH events too.
Sea Otter XC was much rougher than that.
Is 18" off the ground supposed to be scary? |
| I was only showing the terrain. Show me a pic of the area that | AZ-X
Mar 25, 2002 4:17 PM | | was rougher than that this year--maybe I'll actually give your thoughts some credence. That is not a downhill course many people can bunnyhop that high without even a pebble to launch off of. I've already said, I'm not trying to insult you or your intelligence, but I'm beginning to wonder... |
| So is that the kind of gear you wear for XC riding? | Boss Hogg
Mar 25, 2002 4:30 PM | | I dont have the time to go back with a camera. Maybe some day just for you. I would rather ride than prove something to a video watcher that thousands of riders already know. Best thing would be to pack up the rigid bike and come out and ride it for yourself.
For now you'll have to watch the video again or take the rider's word.
No hard feelings. |
| I was going to let it go, but... | AZ-X
Mar 25, 2002 5:06 PM | | I've taken more than one riders word and you are the ONLY one who is standing behind this "it's a really, really rough course" BS. Sorry.
By your own words, it was a full 45% (nearly half) of an 18-mile loop that was fast, fairly smooth terrain. I've NEVER had the opportunity to race a course that smooth, and YOU should consider yourself lucky. I guess I'm just too trusting a soul for listening to a guy that has even more riding experience than I have who has pictures and video to back up his statements, as well as the testimony of others (even those right here on this thread). Maybe you don't have as high a constitution for bumpy trails as others or you just haven't had the opportunity to really ride some. That's not my issue, it's yours.
But hey, you're right. I haven't personally ridden it. So I wouldn't know. I guess I'll drop it now... |
| As I'm sure you'll want to have the last word... | AZ-X
Mar 25, 2002 4:22 PM | | I'm sure all of us would like to see some pics of the "extreme roughness" of your Sea Otter experience. That is not at all a downhill course or trail--just because he's riding a big heavy bike. I'd think you would know better.
You're beginning to remind me of a couple of others on the boards, so I'll let you know that you can say whatever with no response back from me from this point on. Have at it and enjoy yourself. |
| what's up with you AZ X? | Patchito
Mar 25, 2002 10:09 PM | | Have your online sparring matches with D8 taken their toll on you or what? I think his personality's starting to rub off or something. Normally you're pretty reasonable, articulate, and provide informative input. I think this whole argument sounds a bit petty, especially considering you've never ridden the course. I've got to weigh in on this one from personal experience. Yes, the course starts and finishes on the race track; and from all appearances, the offroad course looks pretty smooth and straightforward, but there were quite a few ruts on the downhill singletrack sections that kept me from really flying down them if I wanted to have any chance of maintaining control of the bike. There were most definitely sections of that course that were NOT smooth. I thought Big Bear took less out of me than the Sea Otter course.
Quite a few sandy washouts too, especially with the rain the night before. I actually washed out once and crashed, if you could call it that. It was more like sinking in quicksand. Softest crash I've ever had.
Even though there aren't gnarly rock gardens or whatever else you're used to in AZ (or So Cal for that matter), to say it's on a par with road riding based on videotape footage is a little silly. I mean, come on. |
| Sorry, Patchito... | AZ-X
Mar 25, 2002 11:11 PM | | I didn't say it was on par with road riding. It was said figuratively, by my friend and I had to say that from what I've seen, it isn't that rough compared to most of the courses I've been forced to race on. I just said that "even an 18 mile road race would be grueling" to make a point about racing in general. Not to say that it was actually like a road ride.
It's all there, you just have to read back (yeah I know it's unfortunately very long, pathetic and boring--but it didn't have to be...)
I tried to stop the argument earlier. Things just got out of hand. I don't let insults pass easily either. That's the only reason I continued for so long. I was long winded (as I'm sure I'm being here, but I think I kept my composure throughout--even when being goaded all the way). I even agreed that I'm sure that parts weren't smooth and that I'm sure it was a tough race to run. I've just never been lucky enough to ride a race that was even 15 or 20% "smooth sections" or even easy fireroads in the 18 to 27 mile races I've participated in. That's all! Don't you often ride trails that are overall rougher than that on a regular basis? That's all I said at the beginning. Things just seemed to spiral out of control after that because people seemed to take offense at my comment. I also wasn't trying to pose as "the rider of Arizona trails that are tougher than all of yours." I've ridden rough trails in various parts of North America. They are all over the place.
Yeah, my sparring matches with the eighth wonder have gotten me on edge on this site somewhat.
I have always tried to share information that I know or have been privy too for people and enjoy getting info from you guys too. I've been lucky enough to see and ride a lot of stuff and also to have met and talked to many pro riders here and in other parts of the country as well.
I guess that the moral of this for me is just not to say anything and let things go by that I know are highly questionable or plain false without saying anything for fear of being told to put a cork in it--even when I've seen otherwise with my own two eyes and had several people whom I trust that have first hand experience tell me otherwise.
I remember when I was telling people about the Black forks being very good and about how much of a difference there was between the newer Manitou forks and the old ones (which I wouldn't even touch with a ten foot pole because I felt they sucked so badly) as far as stiffness and overall performance. Especially compared to the SIDs and Psylos everyone was (and many still are) enamored with. I also remember posting about how Marzocchis aren't all that their cracked up to be. All of this was based on MY PERSONAL AND ACTUAL EXPERIENCE WITH THE PRODUCTS--working with them, testing them, OWNING THEM AND RACING THEM MYSELF and most didn't believe me even then anyway. Now that the real weight and stiffness numbers are coming out from the real testing that's being done, people are starting to take those statements that I had made so many months ago more seriously instead of just going with the marketing hype, and discounting what I said as "crap" and "BS." Some are understanding that there may actually be more choices out there and that the terrain you ride and the purpose you're going to use the stuff for actually matters. Even I've learned that lesson over again since coming back onto this site last year. I guess that the main lessons that I haven't really learned are that people here are easily offended, that they don't believe that people have had the experience that they claim to (or that it matters at all) or that anything is for real unless they see pictures. I've been guilty of it myself. Though the D8 thing still gets to me because he claims to have ridden every model of everthing I ever bring up. That just rubs me the wrong way and will always make me suspicious when he talks about his "experiences |
| Woa... so long-winded that I was cut off on that one. :o) | AZ-X
Mar 25, 2002 11:32 PM | | To finish this off...
I guess what I HAVE now learned for sure is that people just have to find out stuff for themselves. It doesn't reall matter WHAT I say or think about something because most of them won't listen to what I say anyway. I'm suprised so many people bothered to read this whole thread. Probalby just for the entertaiment value...
Man, you can tell it was a very light consulting day for me today. I've been on and off the forum since early this morning posting the Sea Otter Pro news that I was originally excited about and now am almost sad that I did...
'Nite! :o( |
| Hehe...yer gettin' downright manic there.... | Patchito
Mar 26, 2002 4:59 PM | | with all that typing. As long as it provides a release and you're not up for three days straight I guess it's all good. Just a final comment on course conditions if I may. Personally I prefer less technical courses, particularly ones with steady grinding uphills like the final section of Sea Otter or the beginning of Big Bear. Those suit my strengths a little better, especially considering how sketchy I am on technical downills. Racing should be both a test of fitness and skill - leading heavily toward the fitness end of the spectrum for my preferences. |
| Did you ride two laps or one? Bet you wish you had a rigid fork | Boss Hogg
Mar 25, 2002 1:53 PM | | for this course huh?? :)
I got pounded too. The second lap was a killer. My upper body is the only thing thats tired today. |
| One lap was enough... | Rude-e
Mar 25, 2002 2:55 PM | | My whole upper body and lower back are sore.
This was my first time doing this event and I had the impresion that it would be fast and smooth from everybodys comments. It was fast and it was concrete smooth(conrete w/ holes) except for those damn holes, one after another, never ending all on hard pack dirt!! |
| My back was by far the sorest part!! and booties... | CKS
Mar 25, 2002 5:10 PM | | The course was rough- my back was sore. It's interesting though- a super rough course will require that you ride slower, and don't get hammered as hard, while a course that is rough dirt, (not due to huge rocks) will allow you to go fast and get the snot jarred out of you as you skip over washboard, rain ruts, etc. I wouldn't have traded my FS in for anything hard this weekend!!! I did lockout the fork and shock on the paved climb out of the racetrack and then again on the long fire road climb near the end, wow, that lockout sure is a nice feature!! (Fox Float RC, SID Race Ti)
The booties are worn for any combination of these 3 reasons:
1) to cover up a non-paying or supportive shoe sponsor
2) to show a logo for a paying sponsor
3) to cover up a non-sponsor-provided shoe that the rider wants to wear since they don't like the sponsor's shoes
You'd be amazed at what equipment sponsored riders are obligated to use: factory riders usually have to ride the bike spec'd as it comes from the mftr and can't even change out the saddle, not even for another model from the same mftr!!! |
| I can definitly believe that... | AZ-X
Mar 25, 2002 5:19 PM | | The factory team members often really have to bend over backward to get what they want as far as equipment, and they are rarely able to persuade anyone.
It's interesting that the Canadian riders were mainly the ones the pics showed with booties on. Maybe Trek/Gary Fisher have new shoe contracts and didn't get the new ones in time for the race? Were there many others? Maybe there were some new shoes being tested? |
| Yeah you would know huh. | Robby Van Horn
Mar 25, 2002 8:29 PM | | Why do you talk like youre a factory rider or someone who knows a lot about racing?
Its kinda amusing to those who really know.
Oh, the course IS rough. Its not a road course by any means. Many pros used FS. These guys have the option. Keep in mind that many of the shots you see could be from the dirt crit, etc and are not necessarily from the XC race. Also most of those pictures are taken right near the Laguna Seca venue hence the real smooth dirt roads.
Someone suggested that you "put a cork in it already" here in the room.
Later. |
| But you dont agree with him on his statement that the course is | Robby Van Horn
Mar 25, 2002 8:33 PM | | rough? Right. Just that the factory guys have a hard time using parts that theyre not getting paid to promote? |
| That's exactly what I said. Glad you caught it... | AZ-X
Mar 25, 2002 9:48 PM | | Those who frequent this discussion group have a pretty much a full gist of my racing, riding and even limited shop experience. I never claimed to be a factory rider. I've raced the Arizona State series as a sport class racer for two years in the mid-late '90s and because I live here, I have had the good fortune to run into, meet and/or talk to SEVERAL factory sponsored riders. Many of them train and ride here (several with their entire teams) in the off season and use AZ races to train (as I stated earlier). I have also had several friends and aquaitances, a couple of whom have raced pro/elite and a couple who have done photography and testing work for a major BIKE magazine (hint...) and run an Arizona MTB adventure tourism group who used to be top Experts on the Arizona circuit with sponsorships. I've also been riding and racing bikes on and off since I was less than a teenager. So--does that qualify as knowing or experiencing just a bit? Again, I'm no pro and don't know if I'll ever aspire to be. Just a rider who's seen and experienced a lot (including different countries and other continents). Once you've done a certain amount of different types of terrain (at least for me) it only becomes the sights, smells and sounds that are different in the different parts of the world. That is more than enough to keep me riding though. I love riding. That's why I take such an interest in the upper pro goings on. If you think I'm trying to sound like a pro, that's YOUR issue to sort out, NOT mine. I dont' think I'm anwhere near a pro. Your complaint is like telling someone who follows and knows a lot about soccer, hockey or football (someone who has actually had real conversations with the pros he sometimes talks about and has actually participated competetively in the sport for years) that they don't know anything should "put a sock in it."
As far as the "roadie course" terminology, that is from my friend in CO who actually races expert class. He's older than I am and has been riding a lot longer. Sorry if it offends you. I just said it looks like a generally smooth course from all the footage I've seen (smoother than I've had the opportunity to actually race on before) and I tried not to make it an offensive comment. I went out of my way to acknowledge that it was most likely a tough race and that my comment wasn't meant to offend. People like you just kept pushing. Go back and read and you'll see what I'm talking about.
'Nite! |
| How about that, #7 from my wild guesses! nm | pedalAZ
Mar 25, 2002 7:48 PM | | |
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