|   nino | jj jr.
Jul 14, 2003 2:32 AM | | Hey Nino, you talk bad about how Cannondale's are stupid
designs and how it's only the fancy euro stuff that makes
them good. You euro's need to get over your american envy.
When was the last time one of you stupid euro countries
sent someone into space? or could design an airplane? The
scalpel is ALOT nicer than the scott fs design! |
| nicer i dont know but its much more WC proven and winner nm | stump
Jul 14, 2003 3:12 AM | | |
| Winner = Ability of rider not the bike IMHO! Euro/US Made has nothing to do with it! Who cares anyhow? (nm) | Trevor!
Jul 14, 2003 3:23 AM | | |
| ok but because of the high level of the world cup competition... | stump
Jul 14, 2003 4:30 AM | | these days, if your bike is not good enough, you wont be able to win anything. the difference between riders these days are soo short that those huge gaps that were frequently about five years ago almost disappeared. when was the last time you heard that the winner of the world cup xc has won 4minutes ahead the second place?
gunn rita dahle did this this weekend but it was an exception.
if your bike is not competitive enough you will have a serious problem.
i only said that because "some guys" here just cant stop telling us that scott bikes are the best in the world, that they are the lightest, stiffer, more agile, best climbers..... so why these bikes cant winn a damn world cup race?
its the same history on the road scene...
whats the deal with scott bikes? they are the best bikes in the world but cant winn a major race?
weight is not everything, like tom ritchey says " why have a lighter bike if its broke in the middle of the race? "
ps:excuse my english :-) |
| Don't forget | AZ Steelhead
Jul 14, 2003 6:33 AM | | That these athlete get paid by the bicycle manufactures, Scott, a relatively small company could never afford to pay for world cup contenders, whereas Trek (Fisher, Klein, LeMond) can. It all comes down to bike sales. |
| what about Frischknecht?? | stump
Jul 14, 2003 7:23 AM | | the guy was winning at least one world cup race when he was riding for ritchey, riding a "heavy" steel hardtail! now he rides the "best" frame in the world but he just cant beat holand with his "heavy" frame.....
where is the jean delatour team when the guys hit the mountains?
by the way, IM NOT AMERICAN, and i really hate those words like
"usa made" but hey, americans should support their country. |
| sorry - he won a WC in Kaprun/Austria on a Scott (nm) | nino
Jul 14, 2003 9:14 AM | | and don`t forget that Frischy has well over 10 years of WC succes behind and is still a front runner.
how about winningest WC-rider?
let`s see where Green is in 10 years...
Roadracing is about MONEY and that is where smaller companies such as Scott still lack.they can`t afford to hire top guns.that`s it. |
| American envy | nikh
Jul 14, 2003 4:03 AM | | haha lol thats a good one if I've ever heard one!!
Stupid? Space? Airplane?
Learn some history jj jr. you might learn something........or probably not. |
| Some day you americans will pay very expensive your wrong sense of patriotism [nm] | palmix
Jul 14, 2003 5:57 AM | | |
| they are already paying.. nm | stump
Jul 14, 2003 7:28 AM | | |
| Kind of a sinister tone there Palmix... | Patchito
Jul 14, 2003 8:28 AM | | Should the U.S. Dept. of Homeland Security be concerned about you? You almost confirm that idiot's "American Envy" line. Now tell me something, and be really honest. Deep down, were you really glad the World Trade Center was attacked? Did you feel that we finally got what we deserved? I'm proud of who I am but I'm not a jingoist, and the fact that my country is powerful economically and militarily (and culturally?) is more a product of history. Why should we have to "pay"? Sorry Palmix, but I don't buy the notion that myself or my countrymen should die because of someone else's cultural bruised ego.
Enough with the nationalistic urinating competition. I love where I'm from, Europeans like where they're from...let's leave it at that. |
| Kind of a sinister tone there Palmix... | nikh
Jul 14, 2003 8:46 AM | | I don't believe there was anything sinister about his comment, sadly enough only the truth. |
| Kind of a sinister tone there Palmix... | peteo
Jul 14, 2003 9:34 AM | | GROW UP! If you want to bash the U.S. or Canada or Europe, that's fine, but this board is about biking. Nobody wants to read a bunch of political machoism on this forum. You all need to realize that the world is a big place and every country has good and bad points. Even the U.S. where I'm from. Stick to cycling subjects, that's why we all read this forum, to learn and share our experiences.
cheers. Pete |
| Thanks for stating the obvious. nm | nikh
Jul 14, 2003 9:44 AM | | |
| Ok, I couldn't resist.. | Patchito
Jul 14, 2003 10:20 AM | | I agree, let's keep this a bike forum, and I think that the post that started this thread was rather stupid, but I just find it appalling that some people - check that - many people think that I and the people I care about should "pay" because we happen to live in a powerful country and we have flag stickers on our cars. I admire European culture, which reminds me, I'm looking for a new roommate to share our house in Southern California and am interested in someone from Europe. Post for my email if interested.
BTW - I have four Cannondales and am eyeing a new Scalpel. Come to think of it, as a fitting rebuttal the "buy our own mentality", a lot of my roadie buddies are all agag over Colnagos and anything Euro. To them Cannondales are a somewhat pedestrian brand. On the other hand, I hear that Cannondales are sought after in Europe. Go figure. |
| Ok, I couldn't resist.. | nikh
Jul 14, 2003 10:32 AM | | Where abouts in Socal I might be interested?
I'm thinking of heading over to Cali I have buddies in Ocean side, and this damn humidity is killing me lol!! |
| Not to mention | Aesop Rock
Jul 14, 2003 11:48 AM | | that Cannondales have a lifetime warranty.
I love the USA and will support things made here, I guess Europeans should do the same. Maybe that's why Nino recommends them every chance he gets.
You can say what you will about the US, everyone has their own opinion, but if you guys ever need help for anything the US will be the first place anyone across the pond asks. Guaranteed. |
| Is this a good time to mention | nikh
Jul 14, 2003 11:51 AM | | Iraq lol......ok ok lets let this one rest! |
| yeah, where's D8 when you need him | Patchito
Jul 14, 2003 8:05 PM | | I miss my sparring matches with him. I think the best was when he compared the founding fathers of the U.S. to Al Qaeda terrorists. |
| within quick driving distance of the San Juan Trail... | Patchito
Jul 14, 2003 4:12 PM | | Nino said he rode it when he was visiting the U.S., and it's probably the best MTB in Orange County. Yup, there's some good riding around here. I live in Costa Mesa, which is about an hour's drive north of Oceanside. It gets warm, but we live about 15 minutes from the beach so the ocean breeze cools things off a bit.
If you want I'll email you a more detailed description. Where are you currently BTW?
http://www.singlespeed.net/pathbeer03.mv
This is NOT SJT btw |
| no USA vs Euro here... | nino
Jul 14, 2003 11:50 AM | | you make that a USA vs Euro "battle".
I don`t.
I was just commenting Cannondales MTB designs which are none other than pure marketing and i have to agree that they are good at it.no other company has such a "ingenious" and "future technology" image. but by looking closely you can see that most of it comes from designs that are no better than others - just different.
we all remember the Raven frame.well,it wasn`t any lighter nor was it stiffer nor better handling...it just looked cool.
same for the lefty forks.it`s a good working piece of equippement but for the amount of R&D no better than other regular forks.just different and that`s all that counts. |
| I agree on the Lefty and the Raven. They dont do anything | LOGIC MAN
Jul 14, 2003 1:10 PM | | better nor are they any lighter. The headshock is a good concept. It just never really caught on. I dont think the consumers ever liked the looks of it. But it is a great fork that is stiff and works well. Their cranks are a good idea also and kudos to them for thinking outside the box.
They do have good marketing but I also think they are pretty innovative as well. They dont just follow. That cant be said for most bike companies.
That said, I do really think the Scalpel is a good concept for XC. Nice solid package that works. Now, if they could just bring that weight down a bit more..... |
| It's about selling the bikes... | JmZ
Jul 14, 2003 4:12 PM | | And anything that helps that goal is important. Lots of businesses, and few artists. Artwork also costs more.
There are a bunch of companies that come out with innovative products that shrivel up and die, quickly.
There are a bunch of companies that produce the same bland and blah products year after year.
There are few that mix the good points of both the above, and plenty who mix the bad points of both. :)
But I think by far there are more that find a good idea and then steal it by really any means necessary. The Action-Tec fork IS the headshock. Splined BB's have been around a lot longer than Shimano Octalink or ISIS, V-Brakes were first done by Bontrager's wife.
Cannondale is heavy on the image, and there stuff isn't too bad. I really don't care if my frame came from Tiwan or Cannondale's big factory personally as long as it fits me right.
JmZ |
| "Think Different"...and don't forget 2x9 | Patchito
Jul 14, 2003 8:19 PM | | They do kind of make me want to think of them in terms of the Apple Computer of the bike world - without the faux counterculture appeal. Agree that the Raven may have been form over function, but the Lefty is innovation that actually works pretty damn well. Same stiffness as the headshok but plusher and with a longer travel option. You're right, they do think outside the box, and you have to give them credit for that. Consider the fact that the Lefty is in the same weight class as that noodle SID. Great innovation, the problem is it's exclusive to their product range. |
| you're mistaken... | divve
Jul 14, 2003 9:58 PM | | Nino, name one "normal" 100mm suspension fork that is in the weight class of the carbon Lefty (~1350g) and torsionally as stiff? Not even a heavy Fox can match that. The thought behind the Headshok including the Lefty is similar to oversized frame tubing. A single oversized suspension unit has a better weight to strength ration compared to a double unit. You see the same thing in motor cycle racing or even airplanes. |
| Space and airplanes | DavidG
Jul 14, 2003 7:00 PM | | JJ Jr., you asked a couple of interesting questions. I'm not sure I understand them so I'd like to get some clarifications please:
1. "When was the last time one of you stupid euro countries sent someone into space?"
Does that someone have to come back alive from space, or is sending him/her up there sufficient? In other words, is it acceptable if the "someone" leaves earth in one piece but returns in many?
2. "...or could design an airplane?"
Does the airplane have to be able to land? Or is it OK if it burns up in the atmosphere when it attempts to do so, killing everyone on board?
Let me know your answers, so I can relate properly to your questions.
And to everyone else, it sounds like the NIH (Not Invented Here) Syndrome is starting to pervade this forum... That's why blind patriotism sucks. Down with facism! Grow up and come to realize that every country has some good and some bad to offer the world. No person or country -- or bike for that matter -- is perfect.
Now back to riding...
DavidG |
| Ok David, I think that guy's been sufficiently flamed... | Patchito
Jul 14, 2003 8:00 PM | | by plenty of people already. Bringing up a shuttle disaster that killed several innocent people is probably not in the best taste. Your response would have been more effective had you pointed out that most of our rocket technology, including the Saturn V that put that other Armstrong (Neil, not Lance) on the moon, was derived from the expertise of that German scientist we repatriated after WWII - the guy who developed the V2 rocket for the Nazis - I forget his name.
You could have also mentioned that the European consortium Airbus designs plenty of aircraft, including the 380, which when it enters service will be larger than the 747; or that Europe developed the Concorde, the first supersonic transport.
Don't get me wrong, I'm a patriot, but I'm not a blind one. |
| Ok David, I think that guy's been sufficiently flamed... | Well said.....(nm)
Jul 15, 2003 7:25 AM | | |
| Space and airplanes | jj_jr
Jul 15, 2003 2:35 AM | | Anytime you are doing something like space travel there are huge
risks. It will not go perfect 100% of the time. For all the
travel the US has done there have been VERY FEW casualities. In
fact it is far safer than driving your car. In order to push
technology you have to take risks. To the person saying I should
learn history, what country are you from? and when was the last time
you sent people into space or built an airplane? (Please tell me you are french, and bring up the failing Concord!)To my knowledge only
Russia has a space program like the US. |
| Space and airplanes | nino
Jul 15, 2003 3:45 AM | | Europe has a space program with the "ariane"-missiles etc.
just to make sure you don`t forget about that. |
| Space and airplanes | nikh
Jul 15, 2003 5:15 AM | | England but living in Texas for my sins.
jj_jr although I'd love to 'chat' with you this is a bike forum so I'm leaving it at that. |
| Space and airplanes | jj_jr
Jul 15, 2003 8:19 AM | | if you dont like it then why live here? example: i dont like
the north pole therefore i dont live there. it is pretty ignorant
to live somewhere you don't want to dont ya think? |
| Because | nikh
Jul 15, 2003 8:38 AM | | I'm getting payed very well by some American company to do a job.
And once I'm done I'm moving back or perhaps to the West coast see what takes my fancy at the time?
Ignorant hmmm takes one to know one little boy ;-) |
| Because | alleyoop
Jul 15, 2003 11:01 AM | | First of all, let's clarify something-Nino is a moron. He has not ridden a Scalpel, yet comments on it. He criticizes the Cannondale CAAD8 why? Because it's heavy, it was just sanctioned by the UCI (forcing Cannondale to intentionally weight the frame), yet according to Nino-it's heavy.
Second, Scott sucks. Why? They can't compete in the US, the largest consumer market, and largest economy in the world. If Europe is so grand, why did all of your countries dilute their currency into a single system? Why, to compete against the US, that's why.
People living in the US like nikh. If you don't like it here why do you live here? Because you are paid better here. Whatever you do here, go do in Europe fo a pay loss. We need to put signs in at the airports "If you don't like freedom or appreciate a higher standard of living, go home."
The US is the standard everybody else in the world seeks to match, accept it and go on with your lives.
BTW, Japan is superior to Europe also... Their cars are better, their componentry is better. That's right, Shimano shifts better than Campy! Reread that-SHIMANO SHIFTS BETTER THAN CAMPY!!
Later |
| I guess jj_jr accomplished what he set out to do... | Patchito
Jul 15, 2003 3:19 PM | | start a long thread and a big international fight. I did kind of laugh at the line about the signs in the airport, and I do see the irony in that annoying habit practiced by much of the world when they constantly harp on us, yet try to emulate us. Yeah, we Yanks are a little too proud of ourselves and aren't always aware that there are other countries, but we're a fundamentally decent people who support freedom both here and for those countries that don't have it (ie Iraq). We tend to get a little touchy in response to criticism and start the chest thumping and flag waving, but then again, crazed lunatics flying planes into our tallest buildings and trying to destroy us tends to make us a little sensitive.
I don't think France has ever gotten over Waterloo. Their big issue with us as a "hyperpower", as they like to refer to us, has less to do with any malfeasance on our part and more to do with the stark reality that they AREN'T the world's only superpower. If they had the chance to trade places with the U.S. do you think they wouldn't do it in a nanosecond?
Shall we get back to bikes? |
| Travelling in space is safer than driving your car? | DavidG
Jul 15, 2003 2:31 PM | | JJ Jr.,
Let's forget for a moment the silly (albeit very mature) My-US-Dad-Can-Beat-Up-Your-European-Dad-So-There contest and instead let's talk facts.
And if we're talking facts, your statement "In fact [space travel] is far safer than driving your car" is VERY inaccurate.
According to the NASA website, to date there have been 113 Space Shuttle flights, give or take a couple. Of these, at least two ended in fatalities. That's a fatality ratio of about 1 in every 57 missions.
In other words, if driving a car were as dangerous as space travel (and you claim it is MORE dangerous), then if you drove your car say 5 times a week -- as do the vast majority of people -- statistically you would be die in a car accident within 3 months of starting to drive.
If this were indeed a fact, as you claim it is, NOBODY would drive cars and the automobile would die out as a means of transportation within a few months.
The upside of course is that the bike industry would be HUMUNGOUS and there would be THOUSANDS more weight weenies on this site, many of whom could participate in the way-too-mature-for-this-forum-so-let's-move-it-elsewhere US vs. Europe debate.
DavidG. |
| Travelling in space is safer than driving your car? | alleyoop
Jul 15, 2003 7:20 PM | | Does David G. (or is that Kenny G) talk (or write) just to hear himself?
I think what JJ Jr. was conveying was that given the tremendous risk involved in space flight (and the fact that thankfully there has been few deaths), it appears safer...
Just got back from a group road ride but had to disqualify everybody that has a bike that weighed more than twelve pounds and said Scott USA on the downtube. Why do they call themselves SCOTT USA, yet they are not sold here? |
| Reading comprehension | DavidG
Jul 16, 2003 2:44 PM | | Alleyoop,
What JJ Jr. wrote: "In fact [space travel] is far safer than driving your car".
What you wrote: "JJ Jr. was conveying was that given the tremendous risk involved in space flight (and the fact that thankfully there has been few deaths), it appears safer..."
I'm sorry, but I read JJ Jr.'s statement verbatim and to my mind it clearly says that it's a FACT that space travel IS safer than driving your car. Not that it 'appears' safer, but that it 'is' safer.
As to why I write, I guess it's to vent pent-up steam that accumulates when I read rubbish written by nationalistic, close-minded individuals who seem to get a kick out of running down other people/countries that are not their own, for no apparent reason. I view my writing (in these cases) not as an opportunity to hear myself, but rather as an opportunity to show other readers that there are different, saner and nicer thoughts out there than those of the above-mentioned backward individuals.
DavidG |
| Someone needs to introduce you lot to weed!! | Dougal.s
Jul 16, 2003 6:14 PM | | Quick note about that:
1) Not a good idea if you compete in any sort of environment where drug testing is rife. So if you play football (soccer?) in England you should be ok.
2) If you do decide to go down the illegal recreational drugs road, it can still be detected by standard urine tests three months after use.
Just chill guys...
Dougal - http://www.mybikeneedsfixed.co.uk |
| Someone needs to introduce you lot to weed!! | nikh
Jul 17, 2003 5:21 AM | | Good idea, a chill out session to Amsterdam is required!! |
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