|   Why not use a freeride/trials bike? | Matt
Dec 27, 2001 12:30 PM | | I never see anything posted on here about using a sweet freeride/trials bike with a low frame geometry like the Cove Stiffee SL or the Norco Torrent...what's wrong with these? I am thinking of getting one for trials...I think they're just more practical than a STRICTLY trials bike...any opinions? |
| re: Why not use a freeride/trials bike? | specP.3
Dec 27, 2001 12:50 PM | | Check out the post titled "what would be the dream setup" Dec. 9th.
Make sure you run rim brakes in the rear for the sake of saving your disc tabs.
The stiffee Sl is hands down the most impressive hardtail i've ridden, ever.
Later |
| Definatly | OrBust
Dec 27, 2001 1:08 PM | | Yeah...I have to totally agree with specp3 here. The stiffee SL is one badass freeride/trials bike. Its one the the sweetest handling bikes I have ever ridden. I think it would actually make a nice trials bike with some rigid forks and trials components....the one I rode had 5" psylos, and weighed around 30 pounds...but still was quite a decent trials bike.
by the way...hey spec, im coming up on the 29th....got my king hub, and I sold my Super t's, so I can finally get my bike set up. We gotta hit up portland or salem, ill give you a ring when I get into town...later |
| and my morning rant.... | Regder
Dec 27, 2001 1:18 PM | | I'll tell you why, very simple actually. There is NO SUCH THING AS A TRUE MULTI PURPOSE BIKE. You either set a bike up for one style of riding or another, it is next to impossible to have a bike that will truly be able to handle mutiple types of riding well enough to make the investment worth it.
Lets say you get a frame such as a Cove Stiffee Sl, the geometry is close enough to pass for a trials frame, but how are you going to set it up? You want it to be able to seriously freeride so lets toss on a 4" Z1, 521's front and back, and big beefy DH tires all around, you'll also want a short stem so that it feels good when you are at speed. Guess what? Said bike is not going to ride trials all that well, it will also weigh a decent bit over 30lbs.
Lets look at the other spectrum, keeping the frame the same. Toss on a rigid fork, beefy rear wheel with a nice dh/trials tire, light xc front wheel with a 2.1 xc tire. I'd want a nice decently long stem in the area of 110mm for it to feel good while riding trials. Guess what we have here, a not bad trials bike but hardly a respectable freeride bike.
Now you are asking yourself why not build something up in the middleground. Again very simply answer, the bike will not do well in either scenario, leaving you with a bike that is pretty much useless except to look at. For the amount of money that you would be spending on such a bike, you could build up two separate bikes with cheaper parts that would function considerably better in both departments.
Lets just say that you have found the ultimate middleground, your bike is capable of ridng trials and freeride well. We face a different problem here, one regarding adjustments. Are you going to adjust your bike for trials or for freeride. I know that the angle at which I have my handlebars is hardly going to feel good when I'm flying down a trail. Same for my brake levers. There is also chainline, I'd want a straight chainline in my trials gear to keep wear down as that's when my drivetrain will be under the most force. That means that my chain is likely to derail when I'm going fast...
See my point?
When freeride was starting out riders wanted a similar balance, and some still do. What they realized is that a bike capable of riding xc is not going to handle freeride well, same goes for the other way around. Now if you want to seriously freeride, you get a freeride bike rather than doing it on your xc rig, or attempting to convert your xc rig to be a capable freerider. It just makes sense |
| jack of all trades, king of none | ~ScaryFast~
Dec 27, 2001 2:14 PM | | 100% agree with Regder.
Trials is not the same as urban assault riding, which is why so many people are disillusioned when they say they are freeriders who do 'trials in the city' as well....they're urban assaulting, but they ain't doin' no trials on those Monster T-equipped behemoths.
This is like the idea people had 10 years ago when they said "i want to ride road and mountain, let's design the hybrid bike". No way.
It's an unfortunate and costly reality. Too bad :( |
| Somewhat disagree... | OrBust
Dec 27, 2001 3:12 PM | | I understand what you guys are saying, and yes it makes sense...but I think your overlooking a couple things. First off, in my opinion...the stiffe SL setup with a 4" fork, some 521's...and some worthy 'lighter' freeride components(race face/king/etc) makes alot better trials bike then any converted XC bike ever has...and Ive ridden quite a few. Its going to be heavier....but if your just starting, id really doesnt matter. On my buddies SL, he had psylos, kona cromo cranks, rynolites F/R, hayes disks(definalte a no no on the back of the frame if your riding trials) and a short 70 mm stem. It would be in the low 30 I would guess. It was easily rear wheel hopped, gaped pretty nice, had beautiful balance and had a really nice riding position. Ive been riding a few years, and I could have EASILY learned all the basics on this bike...I actually wish I would have learned on a bike like this..as opposed to the 1992 cannondale XC bike I learned on 10 years ago. If a person hasnt really rode trials, I think you would learn the basics on a bike like the SL just as fast as if you had a full on trials bike. Guys like hans rey rode those zaskars with rock shox on the front, this bike is a MUCH worthier trials frame then that thing ever was or even remotely though about being...and look what he could do. If you are good, I agree...you need a full on trials bike....but if you are somewhat inexperienced, Im pretty confident that a bike like this would be fine for learning on, and wouldnt hold you back at all, but again...this is just my opinion. |
| Somewhat disagree... | Matt
Dec 27, 2001 3:28 PM | | I agree with Orbust...and I think everyone here is missing the BIG point. I'm not talking about competition trials, I'm talking about a bike I can go around on and hop around on things and also be able to take riding off gaps and just an all-around bike. since it IS an all-around bike of course I'm not expecting the top of the line bike I just don't want to be riding a true trials bike and then try to take to the jumping of stairs and gaps with a rigid fork (not going to feel nice) |
| and my evening rebuttal... | Regder
Dec 27, 2001 5:34 PM | | Most of you aren't looking at my point in the proper light. You can ride trials on a 20" framed xc bike, if you suck you will still suck regardless of what bike you ride. On the other hand I have witnessed some great riders on some of the crappiest bikes you can imagine.
You guys are looking at this with the same mentality as the 45lbs bullit rider who will claim to be faster on the uphills as the guys on 20lbs xc bikes, or the xc rider on the 20lbs xc bike who will claim to be a better downhiller than everyone he knows. The bike doesn't determine whether you gots da skills or not. Whick brings us to the question of what is the point of a trials specific bike. You can still ride trials more or less as well on a xc frame or slalom frame, so what is the point in a trials specific frame?
To some there is no point and they continue riding their xc and slalom frame. However a trials specific frame will be a lot more fun to ride trials on, not to mention easier. That being said, if I had a choice to ride a 30+lbs freeride bike for trials or a crappy piece of shit setup for trials, there is no doubt in my mind which I would choose. It comes down to using the right tool for the job. If I were into dh I'd get a dh bike rather than an xc bike, though I would still be able to dh on an xc bike.
My original post had to do with ideal setups, rather than variants. If you want to seriously freeride go for the freeride setup, if you want seriously ride trials go for the trials setup. However I would not want to seriously do either discipline on a bike setup in the middle. Same for a sus. fork. Can I ride trials on a bike with a sus. fork? Yeah, and I can probably do everything I can on my rigid bike. Would I want to? No, I can't stand sus. forks for trials.
Hans is riding a bike that probably weighs 27-28lbs, would I want to ride that bike? Hell no. People have to stop looking up to pros for inspiration as to setups. Riders see Leech and Lenosky riding sus. forks and figure sus. must be good for trials... oh wait, wrong rant
Well I forgot where I was going with this but it comes down to if you want to get seriously into either sport get the proper bike setup, it will be just a pain in the ass otherwise.
Oh and there are many bikes other than the Stiffee that have similar geometry but are considerably cheaper.
Second Oh, Matt what's wrong with jumping stairs or doing gaps on a rigid bike? bmx'ers do it all the time and I know a few urban riders that go rigid and kick some serious ass. |
| Just curious.... | OrBust
Dec 27, 2001 11:44 PM | | I still dont think that if your a beginner it will matter if your riding a stiffee or full on trials bike. I dont think one person will progress faster then the other...it might seem like it, cause one person will be doing bigger ups cause of the lighter weight of the trials bike, or maybe doing bigger gaps....but once you take the rider that has learned on the stiffee, and put him on a full blown trials bike....he will be just as good as the guy that started on a trials bike in a very short amount of time. Its like the mathematical notation of a a square being a rectangle...but a rectangle is NOT a square. A freeride bike can be a decent trials bike...but a trials bike in no way can make a decent freeride bike.
When I gave the example of hans, I was pointing out that if its possible to reach his level on a XC bike that is utterly worthless, it seems rational that matt could get to a somewhat similiar level on a bike that is much more trials specific that a zaskar is. I mean you can learn gaps, rear wheel hops, drops, 360's, sidehops....all of this can be learned on basically any bike that has some nice short chainstays, fairly light(not DH bikes) and has a decent riding position. A person like matt can go through all the motions, and then if he wants....fine tune his skills on a full trials bike. This is what I did...I rode a mod for quite a while, NEVER got used to the bike...it was way to small for me and not set up quite right. Once I got my zebdi, everything I learned on my mod over 4 years is coming out...and Im going WAY bigger, and doing stuff that I never thought I could do. It only took me a week to get to the point where I was riding my zebdi alot better then the 4 years I had my mod. A little sidenote, I was actually able to ride the stiffee alot better then I was my mod believe it or not.
But one question for you, what other bikes have similiar geometry as the stiffee and are cheaper. Im just curious, I kinda thought the stiffee had a corner on the market with a short chainstayed freeride bike that was fairly light....I know the le toy is similiar, but are there any besides that?? thanks |
| Just curious.... | Regder
Dec 28, 2001 12:08 AM | | it's three in the morning right now so I'll try to keep this short.
Yes you can learn trials on a Stiffee, same way you can learn on a xc bike, or for that matter any bike out there. As I mentioned before, rider skill and progression of the skill really isn't determined by the bike but more the rider. Oh and by the way, I know of a few riders that freeride on their trials bikes.
Hans didn't get to his level only riding a xc bike, he's been riding mods for ever. He just rides a xc bike now as it is (err was) good promotion for GT. Check his site, he's got a picture of one of his mods from the early nineties. Also from what I can dig up he competed on mods rather than stock (sorry, before my time).
Your kinda getting off line with your second last paragraph. If you set your bike with trials in mind you can go all the way to pro without a hitch. If you set your bike up for freeride as he is intending it gets trickier.
DDG makes a handsome copy of the Stiffee Sl that sells for $270, it has 16.5" chainstays. Yeah, it's a copy but it's damn cheap. For 2002 Norco's dj hardtails all have ~16" chainstays and a bb close to 13", not to mention they are as cheap as dirt (well close enough). The DMR's sell for cheap and have chainstays in the low 16" range. There are also a few others, companies are just now figuring out that short chainstays make a really fun bike. |
| but easier | OrBust
Dec 28, 2001 1:54 AM | | Yes you are right...you can learn trials on any bike, but I think that out of all NON trials bikes out there the stiffee is the best for learning on. If there HAD to be a compromise and do all bike, IMO the stiffee is the one....or like you stated, the DDG/Norcos/DMR or something of the sort, but the stiffee is pretty light if my memory serves my correctly. Since I doubt matt wants to be a pro....It sounds like he just wants to screw around and have fun....the stiffee is going to work fine for him.
What trials frames are capable of freeriding on? I had a Z5 on my zebdi and it was pretty sketchy, the bottom bracket was soo high it just feld weird. I tossed on a 60mm stem for the hell of it, and it was super super odd, I couldnt put my finger on what it was though. I cant think of another worthy freeride frame, but Ive been out of the loop for a year or so.
But I do agree, companies need to step up and start putting shorter chainstays on bikes....they are soo much fun. Id love to see a FS bike with 16" chainstays....I guess a new cove FS bikes has geometry very very similiar to the stiffee, would be very interesting to ride.
Yeah..hans was a mod rider for the longest time, before his aluminum mod(the 'team trials' edition) he was on a think a 'ricochet' if I remember correctly. It was basically a copy of a monty, with the dual crown cromo forks....but for all we know, it was just a repainted monty. I have all of hans's old videos, I learned how to ride from those vids. And you know the funny thing, the guy cant even hold a candle to all the new riders. I remember watching the videos of hans and being amazed, now I watch them and it just doesnt do anything for my anymore...after leech and all the new riders have come along. |
| some validation | ~ScaryFast~
Dec 28, 2001 11:10 AM | | Yeah, I just thought I'd toss in that despite the debates going on here, the original poster said he wanted to buy a bike *for trials*...and thus a freeride frame wouldn't be the best way to go.
I haven't ridden a Stiffee, or a new Torrent (though I owned a '99 one, when it was an XC bike) a few of my friends have dual slalom frames which they use for their 'play' bikes. They're not bad for trials...My friend's Cheeta DS bike is really small and flickable and feels pretty good on the rear wheel. Needless to say, it is great for hucking and urban assault of a non-trials nature. |
| but easier | Regder
Dec 29, 2001 11:37 AM | | you still aren't getting my point in all it's entirety. Yes the Stiffee would be fine for learning, IF it's setup for trials. Learning on a bike setup for freeride is simply going to be a pain, no point really. Build up a junkyard stock bike with a decent trials setup, and I would take it any day over a freeridin stiffee
As for freeridin, why are you so stuck on the concept of suspension? I know a few decent dirtjumpers/urban riders that ride their rigid zebdi's like you wouldn't believe. |
| No way | OrBust
Dec 29, 2001 7:14 PM | | I dont know if you have ridden a stiffee, but it would be 10,000 times beter then a "junkyard stock bike" for trials. Like I said before, It would be alot heavier, but its so hard to learn trials moves on a XC frame. I remember when I was learning to ride....and I would have progressed soooo much faster on a free ride stiffee that wieghed 30+ pounds...compared to the 25 pound cannondale I was riding.
When I say 'freeriding' im talking about climbing/northshore and DH stuff. I doubt a zebdi can do all this....well I guess its possible, but not with my 6'4" ass riding it. I dont really consider dirtjumping/urban riding as freeriding which I can see a zebdi handling.
I guess its just a matter of opinion....in MY experience, riding the stiffee quite a bit...and riding virtually every converted XC bike imaginable, I would choose the stiffee in a heartbeat....even though it weighs over 30 pounds. For ME it handled great, and felt alot better then alot of full on stock bikes I have ridden...geometry wise, not weight wise.
Peace bro |
| No way | Regder
Dec 29, 2001 8:33 PM | | hard to learn moves on a xc frame??? Close to 99% of the riders in the world have had no problems learning on a xc frame. Learning a move, and doing a move are two different things. Regardless of frame, learning a move will take about the same time. If the rider has doesn't know what to do with his body, no frame will help him. Doing said move is a different story however.
Lets get to basics here like balance, you've got your 30+lbs Stiffee with a 5/4" travel fork on the front. Do you want to learn to balance on a bike like that? Same goes for every other basic move. I can imagine it to be a hell of a lot easier to learn a move on a lighter bike, than on a bike that weighs over 30lbs.
As for freeriding, sure. Just toss on a double ring. Get off the concept of suspension saving your ass, if the rider knows what he is doing, the possibilities are limitless. I happen to know a few such riders. Early DH was done on a rigid bike with no problems. Granted it wasn't as rough as it is today, but certainly rough enough for virtually all of today's riders to need suspension. Concentrate on the skill rather than the bike.
It all comes down to setup. I've ridden well setup xc bikes that I've easily liked more than some trials bikes.
The Stiffee is certainly a fine frame, set it up for trials and you are set. Set it up for freeriding, well go freeriding... |
| Yeah right | Surfboard921
Dec 30, 2001 11:45 AM | | Freeride and rigid forks don't mix. rigid Dirt jumps? yeah maybe, rigid 15foot drop to small trannie in the middle of the woods??? FUGITABOWDIT!!!!!! |
| pick up a bmx vid | Regder
Dec 30, 2001 2:08 PM | | you'll see riders going bigger than most of the freeriders out there, all with zero suspension. |
| what the f!ck | Surfboard921
Dec 30, 2001 2:48 PM | | Now you're gonna tell ma that Josh Bender could make his 47foot drop(new world disorder) with a fully rigid bike?!?!?!?!?!?! come on man, you know everything about trial maybe, but don't say stupid stuff about freeride! |
| ... | Regder
Dec 30, 2001 3:58 PM | | Are you serious???
that's just plain hucking, not freeriding. You go and ride off a cliff, not exactly a freeride thing. When I think of freeride, I imagine North Shore stunts which is pretty much what freeride has evolved into. Stuff that requires big skills, not just balls. I can easily imagine a bmxer handling that stuff no problem. You seem to be the mighty freerider, if placed upon a 15" travel Apocalypse would you go and drop 47 feet?
Most of the gaps and other stunts that the "freeriders" are pulling on their massive bikes could easily be done by a half decent bmxer.
Would I do the drop on a rigid bike? No, nor would I do that on any bike. Nor would most freeriders for that matter, however I really wouldn't be surprised if a few bmxers would step up and do it. Pick up a bmx video like Criminal Mischief, you might be surprised at the drops they are doing. One clip that I tried to cut but couldn't, had a rider doing a rail grind to ten foot drop to flat, all on a rigid bike. Doing the drop smoother than most any freerider could I might add. That's just a small example, there are a ton more where the riders go even bigger but I don't have the time.
if you have time check out the site, www.littledevilbrand.com
as a teaser here is a pic I dug up on the net, and it doesn't even pale to some of the other stuff they are pulling
Oh and that drop by dangerous dan I have no doubt could be done by a bmxer with little problems. I know that bmxers have attempted 20 foot drops to flat, I don't think any freerider would try that regardless of suspension.
Note, I'm using bmxers as examples here seeing as there are few mountain bikers that are still without suspension, but the movement is growing. Give it another year or so to see massive moves done on rigid 26" bikes. |
| ... | Regder
Dec 30, 2001 9:59 PM | | guess that pic doesn't want to work out, here's another. Also from Criminal Mischief: |
| I understand your point but... | Surfboard921
Dec 30, 2001 11:07 PM | | I admit that big drops and jumps(freeride type) are "do-able"(not very big ones tho) on a rigid bike but what's the point? First you gotta be extremely precise and second you gotta absorb everything with your body... then at 30years old you're not even able to walk because your knees and back has suffered to much impacts. It would be just like riding trials with a freeride bike: do-able but not enjoyable AND painful.
I personally think that freeride as evolved with suspension as big as possible just like trials fully rigid. both don't mix or the result is not good. *OR* people that successfully mix the two type of components like ryan leech and his bomber fork are extremely experiences riders that are good enough to do it without problems.
(I do ride trials with a stiff judyXC tho, maybe I'll buy a nice rigid fork if I have some cash to waste someday)
And by the way, why would hucking cliffs not be freeriding???
Now don't even think that the drop by dangerous dan(It's from ride to the hills, not from superheroes) can be done on a bmx or even a rigid mtb, it's impossible for the legs to withstand such an impact without having some damage somewhere. Dan use to ride freeride on a rigid bike by the way, go read the 1st part of the interview with him on nsmb.com he's saying it somewhere. Now why would such a talented rider like him move on to suspension? because it's the way to go for that type of riding. ANd what about Richie Schley? 1993 Canadian BMX champion! why did he swapped for suspension? because it's the way to go for freeride. |
| I understand your point but... | Regder
Dec 30, 2001 11:53 PM | | I get your point clearly, just saying it is possible. I still think however that riders are placing too high a reliance on suspension. I know of certain riders that wouldn't even think of doing a 3/4 foot drop without five inches, before I was a trials rider I was doing those on rigid without much problem. Eh, I have no clue where I'm going with this. Oh and I'd bet your wrists would give before your legs, I remember seeing pics of one bmxer's wrists snapped like a twig after attempting a massive drop. We're all going to face the consequences of riding eventually. I wouldn't be surprised if Bender will hardly be able to walk in five years.
I said hucking off cliffs isn't freeriding because it really doesn't require much skill. Quick rundown: pedal, lift front, try not to crap your pants, try to land. I know it requires more than that, but certainly not as much as other moves. In my eyes freeriding is more of a skill based aspect of riding, where hucking is just plain brass balls.
My theory for why riders are switching to suspension is sponsorship. If riders see Dangerous Dan riding Marzocchi, that's the fork they are going to buy. I know there is one rider out of Vancouver who is sponsored by Profile who goes big on a rigid 26".
I hope you can get through that... oi |
| hehehe | Surboard921
Dec 31, 2001 9:35 AM | | "I know of certain riders that wouldn't even think of doing a 3/4 foot drop without five inches" <----hahahahha what a wuss;) I know riders like that too, here we call'em posers.
Here's something I've noticed for a couple of years: I don't know if you agree with this, but I think that there is some kind of ladder of components that riders gotta follow, and if you upgrade too fast you slow down your skill progression. Like when I started trials 2 or 3 years ago(I didn't even know the word trial back then) I was only trying to hop up stairs and climbing benches, I had cheap flats with toeclips and a rigid fork, while my friend with whom I've always ridden had clips pedal and a suspension. And I was always learning and progressing much faster than he did. Maybe if he had been on the same setup as me he would have progressed faster. Maybe it's the same for any type of riding, I you have bigger better components too fast, you don't have experience from the smaller components and you end up well like you said, relying too much on the equipment and not progressing at all. And a good example of this is again Richie Schley or Wade Simmons, both started out as bmxers then Wade went into trials, Richie into XC and both progressed to freeride and all the way up the the bigass moves and sick lines that they do today on their RM7. They probably wouldn't have been able to do that without the experience from past riding.
Just a thought;) |
| hehehe | Regder
Dec 31, 2001 12:27 PM | | I completely agree with you on this. Hell it's my basis for not recomending suspension forks. For a beginner rider they will hurt your riding, much more than help it.
If you look at the current "North Shore" scene. A good amount of the riders are on 9" travel downhill bikes that their parents bought for them. Yet they have no clue how to ride them, and when they do actually go big it's with next to no skill or style. It's a shame that this is what freeriding has evolved into, kids going big on big bikes with little skill. Not to say that they freeriders don't have skill, I know of a few freeriders that are absolutely incredible, but far too many of those entering the sport fit into the above. |
| right - but what about the future riders? | Joe Schaeffer
Jan 5, 2002 6:14 AM | | It makes sense. If you dont use crappy stuff at first you will never get the basic understanding of what actually happens, where the worst forces appear etc.
But then again. In all sports we have seen the equipment dramatically improving during the last 50 years (e.g. motocross, rally, cart but also more traditional olympic sports have gained from better shoes, protective gear etc). And all sports have also presented even better athletes for every year. Look at today's freestyle MX riders and compare to what could be done 40 years ago.
I believe that when the new breed of mountain bikers, north shore kids that know of nothing else than 9" top-class (Marzocchi) suspension in front and rear, XC elite racers looking at hardtails as something you do trials with, and so on, the level of what can be done will increase enormously.
We who have experienced this transition period live in the past with purist techniques mainly applicable to how things WERE instead of how things COULD BE. Just because we are so damn good at what we do!
But these kids of the new breed. They start from this new gear and adopt their technique to that. How big can you go, and what's the best way to do it ONLY if you have got 2*9"? Never mind the hardtail or 3" URT FS bikes used in Kranked 1 when they weren't even born, that's not their world!
I don't know about English, but in Swedish there is a saying: "You can never teach an old dog tricks". We are the old dogs. We cannot be taught not to do things the way we have learnt to do it using the pioneer gear from 1980-1998 something. "Riding around rocks (in XC racing) instead of over them is GOOD", I say. 2010 the FS XC bikes might be so good that everyone will ask me "Why? That's a longer way?". |
| BMX is done on street, MTB on dirt...PLEASE READ! | fknbiker
Jan 2, 2002 10:34 AM | | with rocks , logs, of camber etc. bmx is all done on man made things for the most part. when you see dual suspension on bikes they serve certain purposes: mantain wheel contact with ground for traction and higher speeds, most importantly, i feel for freeriding, is that suspension helps, in theory, create transitions. BMXers always land on perfect trannys(with the exception of flat, but that is technique). furthermore, there bikes are VERY short with much smaller wheels than a MTB effectively creating more transitions , and easier to hit trannys, because they can fit smoothly intighter spaces. we must understand MTBing is MTBIKING-on mountains. mountains are not clean and paved like srteet, djs, and ramps, the suspension cleans it up for us. so, I agree with redger about big rigid moves coming soon for 3 reasons_stronger bikes, bmxers coming over to mtb, and man made stunts, ala north shore where trannys are built. does anyone know the drop in RTTH wade does? a bmxer or rigid rider could have surely hit it because the tranny is so well made |
| look | Surfboard921
Dec 30, 2001 2:53 PM | | would you do that on a rigid bike?
(superheroes video(I think)) |
| look | grandma
Dec 31, 2001 10:02 AM | | That picture is hard to judge without knowing the video sequence but from the angle of the landing area of most of such drops I have seen in videos the suspension is meant to maintain control on the uneven terrain rather than to damp the landing shock.
Look snowboarders jumping. They are not landing on deep powder but on quite hard snow on contests when they do their 900 and twisted backflips.
I am riding a rigid bike for trials/urban and dirt jumping and it works very well, in fact it was an improvement over my susp fork in all disciplines.
The impact on drops not to flat but to a steeper angle like you see with many of those freeride drops isn't that hard at all.
Plus learning to be somewhat smooth instead of stiff as a board will definately improve everything you do on the bike alot more than a suspension is able to. |
| | trek420
Dec 31, 2001 7:56 PM | | redger i cant wait until some freeriders beat the shit out of yours you pansy. wow you have skill cuz you ride trials and can hop up on shit it still dont mean that you can diss other aspects of the sport. and another thing freeridin is not just hucking off shit which actually takes alot more skill than you think freeriding can also be riding super technical steep trails that use most of the same skills as in trials. And if its so hard to balance on a heavy bike how do northshore riders ride on those skinny as logs |
| tee hee :) | Regder
Jan 1, 2002 3:06 PM | | wow, first threat of bodily harm made on this board, I feel so honoured.
Getting past that little facet of your post (a threat is the mark of every quality post!) it is quite apparent that the simple ability to read is beyond your capabilities.
Had you been able to read, you would have noticed this: "I know of a few freeriders that are absolutely incredible". Freeriding is phenomenal when the rider has some skill, and has my utmost respect. However, far too many of those freeriding have very little skill. Or the "huck" phenomenon. That is where little suburban kids (I'm guessing you are one of these) whose parents buy them 9" travel dh bikes for a christmas present go out and drop 6 feet with about the same skill/style as an elephant. This is where freeriding loses my respect. Too many riders "freeriding" fill that description, it's quite sad actually. I'm not arguing that hucking requires more skill, skill that too many freeriders lack. I know a local rider who hucks 9 feet on a hardtail quite smoothly, unfortunately he is one of the exceptions not the rule.
Your second post continues with sentiments of similar strength. Had you been able to read my posts, you would have seen that I was simply saying it is possible. Yet what is wrong with riding being harder, isn't that what makes the sport great? You wouldn't want to actually push your skills, now would you. Not to mention that riding a rigid bike will make you a better rider for when you do ride with suspension (perhaps thats why a good amount of freeriders also have a bmx in their stable).
Good luck with those reading lessons, seems to be a trend among freeriders. Just the other day I was called a fool by a freerider for believing that there are multiple ingrated headset standards, even though I had earlier clearly defined the differences. Gosh, what was I thinking... |
| tee hee :) | trek420
Jan 2, 2002 11:16 AM | | actually im not one of those rich suburban hucking kids i had to buy my own bike and the only one i could afford was a completely rigid trek bruiser which i ride dh trails on in Marin. |
| suspension=easier | trek420
Dec 31, 2001 7:42 PM | | y not use suspension. if your freeridin and doing big drops why not have some sort of way to cushion the big knocks. do your friends think there more badass because they ride rigid or something. that statement goes totally against your previous statement about trials bikes. You say that you wouldnt ride a bike that wasnt set up for specifically trials or that had suspension because it made it harder. Well i can tell you that it is a whole lot harder to ride freeride with out suspension so why not use it. you even said so yourself. right now i have to ride rigid because my fork is being fixed and rockshox are F*cking idiots and they cant even send out the right parts it has ben 2 months. Anyways ive been riding freeride/dh rigid on some pretty sick pro level trails. We have pro's who build em they live right next to the trail. and i can tell you that it is a whole lot harder then riding them with suspension and my fork was only a psylo and the guys who ride the trail ride karpiel disco valantes so once again why not make something easier. |
| false.... | SFA
Dec 27, 2001 3:33 PM | | I don't agree that a bike in between will be useless. The limits are set by the rider. I have an Azonic evolution with a 4" z3, a louise front and hs-33 rear. I can hop higher and drop further than anybody I know with the exception of pros. I can up from flat to rear wheel max 40". My biggest pedal kick gap is 7 feet from a standstill. I dropped a stair gap to flat concrete that was 12 feet high with the same exact bike with no changes in components or adjustment. Drops to flat or fast transitions are no problem. I might be able to do more with specific bikes but I can't afford more than one. Whatever I need to do I make it work. I also ride xc with the same bike and pass everybody on the sponsored teams. I dirt jump occasionally, I'm not that good but I'm working on it.
here's a couple pics, I don't have a lot, most of the good stuff is on tape |
| re: Why not use a freeride/trials bike? | Surfboard921
Dec 27, 2001 2:53 PM | | I really depends on what your riding style is, if you wan't to do only a little bit of trials and mostly north shore type stuff, with big drops at high speed and stuff like that, a trials-specific bike won't get you far, on the other hand, if you wan't to do mostly trials, some small drop-in stairs, dirt jumps(small) and other things like that, a trial specific bike will do fine. People often think that trials bike aren't able to take abuse just because they are less overbuilt, but they can, they are built for it. Just keep a suspension fork with heavy springs or high pressure if it's an air shock. |
| Good idea. | AndyT
Dec 28, 2001 8:57 AM | | I think when you are starting out or when you are just riding for fun and not really interested in real trials (meaning no concrete or flat objects =P ) a freeride bike is great. Sure they are balls heavy but thats for momentum when you are hucking stairs. But once you get serious in trials forget about that bike! When was the last time you got over 2 mph in a comp or jumped stairs- never. Have you ever tried to do a wedge move on a 30 pound bike w/4" of suspension? It's not fun. On a side note lenosky uses that suspension fork quite a bit when doing touch hops. I asked him about it yesterday and he said he is just used to it and how it feels. |
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