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MountainBikeReview.com's Forum Archives - What Bike to Buy
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Race/trailbike platform: Superlight, Yeti AS-R, Racer-X,... (20 posts)
|  Race/trailbike platform: Superlight, Yeti AS-R, Racer-X,... | timjboston
Jan 8, 2002 7:43 AM | | I've been looking to buy a lightweight FS bike to use as a combo race/trailbike platform. I live in Boston where the terrain is v. technical. I currently own a Tracer, which I feel provides superior traction and stability for climbing and descending, but with which I am also dissatisfied with the following aspects: (a) on tight switchbacks, the high bottom bracket induces that feeling that the bike is going to fall over, (b) contrary to what many people have said about the Tracer, I feel that the bike is rather unstable when cornering at high/medium speeds, again due to the fact that it is a tall bike (especially relative to the relatively small cockpit), (c) the rear end feels heavy, so it does not make for the most nimble handling bike, in my opinion, and (d) as previously indicated, the cockpit on medium feels too small for my 5' 10 1/2", 165lb body.
So I'm looking for another trailbike (no drops), but also one that can serve as a race platform (i've been a solid technical/endurance rider for 6 years, but this year will be my first attempt at racing). I had narrowed my search to the Superlight, Yeti AS-R, and Racer-X, but after doing a lot of research, I think I've just confused myself even more. I test rode the Racer-X, which I had presumed would be ideal, but it felt downright scary taking that rig into rocky corners/descents (maybe I shouldn't rule it out so quickly, b/c it was set up real light with Bontrager Race-Lite wheels and a Sid SL, etc). I also felt cramped on the medium Rx w/ a 120 x 5 stem. I subsequently took a size large Superlight on the same test course, and it felt absolutely GREAT in terms of stability/balance, handling, nimbleness, plushness, and sizing (it had a Psylo SL fork and more normal wheels for the setup). The only thing that worries me are the weaknesses inherent in single-pivot designs. Specifically, I'm worried about losing traction on steep, rocky/rooty climbs (which my current Tracer can easily conquer; my Inde Fab hardtail loses traction on the same climbs), and brake jack/rear wheel skipping on descents. Lastly, my research also led me to the Yeti AS-R, b/c of what I've read about its superb traction/climbing capabilities, roomy cockpit and lower bottom bracket, and plushness (relative to say, the Racer-X). However, there is no Yeti dealer near Boston, so I can't test ride one (I'm apprehensive about buying a bike without first riding one, after my experience with the Rx), and I guess I'm weary of getting a suspension platform inferior to the FSR. Any suggestions on which bike is correct for me? Any other suggestions besides the ones I've named here?? (I try my best to stay away from mass-produced bikes, so Specialized is out, and so is the Sugar, NRS, etc, etc.). |
| Look at the Truth | MeIMine
Jan 8, 2002 8:16 AM | | I live in CA, but am from Boston originally. From my experience riding there, I would suggest that you look at the Ellsworth Truth. It is an amazing climber on the technical stuff, lightweight for a 4 inch travel bike and quality built. I've had mine now for a year with almost no problems. I am notoriously hard on bikes.
BTW: I used to own a Superlight. Though the SL does fine on buff trails, you'll do much better with a true 4 bar linkage on technical Massachusetts trails. The SL is also somewhat flexy and flimsy on the rocky stuff. |
| I second the Truth... | JBone
Jan 8, 2002 11:59 AM | | I was in the market last year for a trail bike. Wound up buying a Switchblade (great bike except for the top tube length), however, racing it wasn't in the agenda (I still race with a hardtail when I do). In the process though I tried ALOT of bikes, and must say that the Truth would probably be my top choice for an xc/racing frame that could do some trail bike work as well. This years is more active than previous years, and I didnt notice any awkward braking effects while riding it. That being said, Ive heard great stuff about the racerx...
Also, theres another bike that I tried out that felt like a great racing stead, but I almost hate to mention it. The only reason I tried it is because a shop my friend works in got one in so I rode it for laughs...I thought. Turns out to be a killer bike (shudder), it had great racing geometry, and felt solid. It was a Cannondale Jekyl 900SL, yup, thats right, a CracknFail. Weird huh? |
| my concerns with the Truth.... | timjboston
Jan 8, 2002 12:33 PM | | are that (1) i've read about a lot of people breaking the frame (at the seat tube), and (2) it's my understanding that this bike is not best intended for aggressive XC riding, which if you ride in greater boston area, is all that's available. |
| Truth can take it | MeIMine
Jan 8, 2002 2:04 PM | | I live near the High Sierra/Tahoe in Northern California. In the summer, all I ride is rocks, rocks and more rocks... more technical than most of the Boston area stuff. The Truth has been great, very tough finish. Again, I am a larger rider and am hard on stuff. I broke my Superlight frame twice.
As far as drop offs, I will occasionally do a 3 ft. drop off, but that is enough for me. I would look at freeride bikes if hucking is your thing. |
| Like Russian Roulette | XRAY
Jan 8, 2002 3:02 PM | | Yep, Buy an Ellsworth and play "Russian Roulette" with your warranty should anything break. |
| I second MelMine | Steve from JH
Jan 8, 2002 2:44 PM | | I live in Jackson Hole, WY and used to live in the Boston area. That was back before mountain bikes or at least before suspended mountain bikes. I used to hike and run in places like the Blue Hills, Winchester fells, etc. The Truth would be perfect for riding those trails.
As MelMine says, it's not meant for big drops and getting air. But for steep up and down pitches with lots of roots and rocks, keeping your wheels mostly on the ground, you couldn't do better.
As for stability of handling, I just finished a ride on my '01 Truth where I hit around 40 mph around corners on pure rough ice! If it wasn't stable I probably wouldn't be sitting here typing. (I'm not crazy, I have Nokian studded tires).
As for braking on the Yeti bike. The design will indeed isolate brake torque coming back through the brake pads, if you run it with rim brakes rather than discs. You will, however, have more anti-lift than with a Tracer and even more than with a Truth. That translates into somewhat less active suspension under braking. |
| Medium Truth's BB height & wheelbase w/ 100mm fork? | timjboston
Jan 8, 2002 3:28 PM | | I'd be a medium on a Truth. Does anybody know if the specs on Ellsworth's web site (42" wheelbase, 12.5" BB height) are with a 100mm fork, or with an 80mm? |
| Hogwash... | JBone
Jan 8, 2002 4:54 PM | | 1)I have heard such rumors on this board, but NOWHERE else. I know alot of people with them, not one has broken the frame anywhere. Now, if you plan on riding urban assault with the thing, yes, it will break. But if your doing trail riding/xc racing, no worries.
2)The bike IS intended for aggresive xc riding (4inches of travel, coil if you like). I live in west Marin, and we have some very technical illegal type trails around here, and is burlier terrain than what I saw around Boston.
The bike can handle it, can you? |
| Consider the Hammerhead 100-X.... | The Squeaky Wheel
Jan 8, 2002 8:43 AM | | Let me tell you my tale.
I weigh 165# and am 5'11".Live in northern NJ and probably ride very similar terrain to you. Lots of rock gardens, logs, mud, etc. Very demanding conditions. I needed a change from my Ti sofftail.
The qualifications included (in no particular order): stiffness, climbing ability, weight, 100mm fork design, customer service/company reputation & plushness.
My research & test-riding primarily narrowed my choices to the Titus Switchblade & Racer-X, Ventana El-Salty, Ells Truth & Tracer. I test rode the Switchblade & El Salty and liked both, but preferred the SB. El Salty is very plush, but I didn't like the way it accelerates & bobs during pedaling. SB climbs well and is very stable at speeds, but I didn't get a great feel for it since the frame was a bit large for me. I've ridden the Heckler extensively (the old edition which was replaced by the Superlight) and its a nice bike, but a bit flexy and built around an 80mm fork. During technical descents it felt like the rear end & front end were moving in different directions. It also suffers from pedal-induced bob in the granny.
I called Speedgoat. One person recommended the Switchblade, the other the Racer-X.
I called Charles Coker at hammerheadbikes.com for pricing & info. He had just announced his plans to make the Hammerhead 100-X & suggested it to me based on my requirements. Essentially, he had Titus custom build a Racer-X, but slackened the head angle to accomodate a 100mm fork, slightly raised the bottom bracket, extended the rear travel to 3.8" and welded a straight-gauge downtube for increased durability. The bike sounded perfect, but I was very hesitant to buy a bike without a test ride. But after talking with Alan at Titus abd Charles ( and reading his sterling reviews on this board), I decided to go for it.
After 12 weeks it finally arrived by X-Mas. Man...it is worth the wait. The frame weighs in at a reasonable 5.8#. Titus' craftsmanship is beautiful. Climbs beautifully, even better than my softtail. Excellent traction & hookup. Very stable through corners & during descents. I don't know about the stock racer-X, but this bike is definitely "plush" enough for me while having little/none pedal induced bob. Accelerates instantaneously. Very quick & stable through the twisty singletrack.
I opted for the new Fox Float fork which is a perfect compliment to this bike. In fact, its the best fork I've ever riden. As plush as my bombers, but stiffer, tracks better, lighter & more adjustable.
As for the cockpit, I opted for the 23" toptube with the 120x5 stem. I find it to be the perfect size for me. Yeti's are known for their longer cockpit, but I rode a Yeti hardtail for a while and find their cockpit to be too stretched out & climbing oriented.
Anyway, hope this helps. Give Charles a call at 512-331-2002 or drop him a note at hammerheadbikes@hotmail.com. His knowledge & customer service are top-notch.
If you're ever in north Jersey drop me an email. Maybe I'll let you take a test ride.
The Squeaky Wheel
jwldoc@yahoo.com |
| Have you seen this.... | Metroid
Jan 8, 2002 9:06 AM | | Hammerhead 100X
Charles Coker at Hammerhead Bikes has taken the Racer-X platform and redesigned it for use around a 100mm fork. He's taken a great race frame and made it into a more versatile trail bike that still has a racey feel. It uses the new X-link rocker design. It's supposed to be a bit more plush than the straight mac strut design plus the geometry tweaks squeeze a bit more travel (3.8"). This might be just what you are looking for (although, not much of a chance of a local test ride).
Just going by the numbers, it's available with a 23.5" top tube which is a .25" longer than the medium Racer-X and has a bb height that's a half inch lower than your Tracer.
I had a large Superlight for a year and a half and am now on a medium Titus Switchblade for the past 8 months or so. The Superlight is too flexy in the rear. I didn't really feel it riding but I was wearing shock bushings like crazy which lead to some bearing problems. There were also issues with pedal feedback and brake induced suspension lockout. For my next frame, I wanted something beefier that could take some abuse and a 4 bar Horst link. The Switchblade seemed like just the ticket so I bought one. A proven design and outstanding execution. It's definitely much stiffer, more balanced and has given me no troubles. It rides like a dream. In the 4.5" mode it rides like a Cadilac, climbs well and would be perfect for rough terrain. In 3.75" mode is still very plush but definitely racier. The fit and handling are not ideal though. The top tube is a bit short for me (23", same as your Tracer) and I would like a bit faster handling in the singletrack. I have to pull the front end around some turns. The SB frame is a bit heavier than I had expected as well.
The Hammerhead 100X will be my next bike. It's just as beefy (maybe more so with the straight gauge downtube and extra gusetting), reasonable amount of travel, better fit for me, faster handling and substantially lighter.
Good luck. |
| Turner O2 | derby
Jan 8, 2002 9:29 AM | | Having gone from a Superlight to a (large) Tracer myself, I'd say you wouldn't like the root and rock climbing pedal kickback of a high pivot such as the Superlight. Also note that the large Tracer has a 1/2 inch lower BB height at 13 inches (who knows why?) still higher than ideal for racing full suspension which should be close to 12.25 inches like the Superlight with a 80mm fork.
The moderately lower pivot Yeti will work better climbing roots and rocks than the Superlight and the RacerX will too.
If you don't like the super quick handling of the RacerX you'll hate the Truth, which is less stable but a good slow climber and for pedaling will be very close in action to the Yeti due to nearly identical paths. While the Yeti would be much more stable at speed and braking.
If you like the moderately slow handling of the Superlight you'd like the Titus Switchblade. And the SB can be set to shorter travel for racing. But it is heavy for racing. The HammerHead 100 (100mm RacerX custom spec for Charles Colker) would probably be too quick handling for your interest, maybe not.
Maybe look at the Turner O2. It's designed for racing and trail riding. Can be built to 22 lbs. Call Dave Turner at www.turnerbikes.com, he's a great guy and knows what works. No better after sales service. Will do custom sizing. Probably the only bikes made better than Intense.
- ray |
| did you demo a Turner? | slowideclyde
Jan 8, 2002 4:17 PM | | I've read many of your reviews but don't remember seeing one for any of Turner's offerings. If you have spent any time on an O2 or an XCE, I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts on each and possibly how they compare to each other or the old RX. I'm considering possibly an O2 or an XCE, but don't know if either would be just what I'm looking for. I'm not pretending to be in a Mountain Dew commercial, so I don't need burliness and extra heft of the XCE, but the extra plushness of the coil is appealing. I like the weight of the O2, but I'm thinking about going to a 100mm fork and imagine the back end would lean towards the firm, xc racing side. Compromises, compromises... |
| yes, the XCE | derby
Jan 9, 2002 11:12 AM | | I rode and XCE with air fork and air shock at Mammoth last summer for a couple hours. Mammoth is mostly granny sand, very smooth, with few rocks. The bike cornered and flew off bumps with perfect balance for me in a large size for my 200 lbs. I was very comfortable on the bike, it is very stable. I didn't get a chance to really ride rock gardens to feel for kickback, but the geometry is very similar to my Tracer which has an almost undetectable touch of pedal kickback flutter in the granny when climbing rocky sections (but that is the cost of a design with little climbing squat or bob).
With air you could pump up the shock more firm for racing or swap to coil for non race riding. With air the bike doesn't feel heavy. With the same shock the XCE is about 1/4 pound heavier than a Tracer and 1/2 pound heavier than a Truth (honest reported weight) or RacerX, and about the same as a Switchblade.
Dave Turners site (www.turnerbikes.com) shows the specs for the XCE and O2, which are honest numbers. The O2 is much lighter and would be a better racer due to a lower fork and riding center of gravity, but still deal well with trail riding, but of course a little less forgiving in the rough due to less suspension. Dave might not warrantee an O2 with a 100 mm fork, you'd better ask first. I know he won't warrantee an XCE with more than a 100 mm fork. Although he does fix his bikes at his cost if they are run over by a truck or something outside of warrantee.
I've never heard of a disappointed buyer of a Turner bike.
I did a vacation last year traveling to the varius manufactures (even to Titus in Phoenix) or events where I could test ride the bikes I was interested in. It was very valuable for me to help narrow down the very few bikes that really work best for me. I suggest everyone do that if it is a major part of your life.
- ray |
| re: Race/trailbike platform: Superlight, Yeti AS-R, Racer-X,... | timjboston
Jan 8, 2002 11:24 AM | | thanks for everyone's advice. i agree w/ Ray (derby) that the Rx, Truth, and hence probably the 100x are too quick handling for what i'm looking for. also, i think ideally i'd like to go with something designed around an 80mm fork (i'm not sure that i'd want to race w/ a 4" fork). i love the geometry on the 02, but my only concern is that the 3" of travel wouldn't be quite sufficient. where we ride here, there often is no line at all to pick, which means you need to push through rock gardens, etc. i guess my thinking is that the 3.8" afforded by the Yeti would be a good compromise between my Tracer and my hardtail. the 4" of travel and racing chassis led me to the Superlight, but i agree w/ Ray's analysis that its probably not best for east coast riding. from my perspective, the one advantage the superlight has over the Yeti is the shorter turner radius (SL has 42" wheelbase, vrs 42.7" for the Yeti - both with an 80mm fork). |
| re: Race/trailbike platform: Superlight, Yeti AS-R, Racer-X,... | Bob Davis
Jan 8, 2002 5:17 PM | | I can guarantee that the "scariness" you felt on the Racerx was due to the SID SL...
a beefier fork will make a HUGE difference in the handling and confidence on the bike
I would bet hard earned cash that the Hammerhead 100X with say a Fox Float would be a lot stiffer and more confidence inspiring in the rough stuff, I know that Charles with Hammerhead lives for rocky technical spooky trails.. (have ridden with him) |
| hammerhead 100x | Green Giant
Jan 8, 2002 12:03 PM | | get one with a 23.5 inch TT. it's stiffer than a standard RX, and is built for 100mm up front but will still handle quite well. It WILL seem more stable than a stock x with the longer TT if you go that way, and the 100 up front will help. Plus, the new X link stiffens things up just a tad also. It will be tougher to test ride, but it is an outstanding platform. |
| I just ordered a.... | timjboston
Jan 9, 2002 11:56 AM | | Hammerhead 100X. spoke w/ Charles, which was very helpful. got 23.5" and will spec w/ Fox Float R. thanks for everyone's advice. |
| Congratulations!!!!!! | The Squeaky Wheel
Jan 9, 2002 12:02 PM | | Congrats. Wise choice.
As a charter member of the club I can guarantee that you won't be disappointed.
The Squeaky Wheel |
| consider Adept (RacerX owner) | JustinTime
Jan 9, 2002 8:19 PM | | I've ridden and raced a Racer X for a year (in fact, set up exactly as the one you describe: sid sl, Racelites, medium frame w. 120 x 5 Thomson, etc.).
Check the klein website under geometry. You will notice a low bb for a FS. I just got my new 2002 Klein Adept Pro and it is the finest handling bike I've ridden. Wheelbase is short, bb is low, tt is avg. to long. This all equates to a fast east coast bike. You will notice a difference with the semi-active suspension and lack of horst link (comfort), but for racing (especially if you're just getting into it and probably only racing for 1 1/2 hrs) it is major benefit (i'm starting to see why 95 percent of the guys in expert still ride hardtails) as "punch" and lack of wasted energy is very important. You've got the "independent" thing going on and that is fine. Klein still represents one of the finest bikes out there (and yes, I have my pick), especially for your intended purpose.
To further emphasize, the handling of the bike is incredible.
-Justin |
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