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MountainBikeReview.com's Forum Archives - What Bike to Buy
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HH100X, Switchblade, or Turner XCE? (23 posts)
|  HH100X, Switchblade, or Turner XCE? | Trl Lvr
Aug 5, 2002 11:23 AM | | I've narrowed my list to these bikes. I'm currently on a Racer-X with an 80mm Marzocchi. I want all the great attributes of my Racer-X, but I want more travel, plusher ride, and I want it to smooth out the rocky, rooty fireroads when going 30mph or so. Especially in the rear end. I'm confident that a 100mm Fox Fork will handle the front work, so I'm looking for a frame that will smooth things out more than my Racer-X. Now that I think about it, I've been on some fast singletrack with enough rocks or roots where I could use more travel or a plusher ride too.
Anyway, If you have experience on any of these bikes, please let me know your comments. If you have experience on several of these, by all means please compare them. |
| re: HH100X, Switchblade, or Turner XCE? | drjos
Aug 5, 2002 11:55 AM | | I just sold my Switchblade because it handles too slow with 4" in front. The switch with 3" handled great. Don't be fooled by the spec's. A 4" switchblade has a 69 degree head tube, not 70.4 like the website says.
I too am contemplating the HH100X and the XCE. From everything I can tell the HH100x is lighter, steers quicker, and is less plush. The XCE is heavier (with it's coil shock), is about 1 degree more slack in the head tube and should be somewhat more plush. The plush factor is probably due more to the coil shock than the frame designs. The two bikes are within 1/4" of each other in travel.
Both bikes are quite stout an should be very durable.
Turner isn't expecting any 19.5" or larger frames until October. They have smaller frames on a two week lead time now. Charles is saying 2 weeks on the HH100X now.
I am going with the HH100X as I love quick handling bikes. If the XCE steered quicker I would probably go with it for the plush factor. The Truth fits in this class as well, but I don't like what I read about their durability.
It's an agonizing choice. Good luck,
David |
| drjos - agonizing is exactly what I would call it... | Trl Lvr
Aug 5, 2002 1:44 PM | | David,
Wow, you hit the nail on the head. Very AGONIZING. I think if the HH100X had 4-4.25" of travel in the back I would be sold. I was considering the Truth too, except I read too many negative things such as durability and flex.
About the plushness, let me sum up my experience from yesterday's ride and see what you think. I swapped bikes with a friend yesterday at Mt Pinos. Fast Fireroad and lots of singletrack. He has a 5" travel Specialized (enduro I think) with a Fox air shock on the back. I expected a huge difference in plushness. I was surprized that it wasn't much better than mine. I'd say maybe only 20% smoother. It exhibited a similar trait of my Racer-X. On level trail or on a climb, The front end would suck up a large root or medium sized rock, but the rear would still "kick" my butt out of the saddle. On a fast descent, like I said it was slightly smoother, but the bike would still hop around on the rocks and rough trail similar to mine. I guess I expected the bike to roll over this stuff and keep the rear wheel planted while not transmitting anything, or very little, to me. So, I guess the bottom line is, to me you have to give up a lot (poorer steering, tall bike, weight, poorer climbing) to gain a little.
So, all this is to ask, how much smoother and plusher is the Turner XCE? Is it significantly smoother that the HH100X. Is it worth it?
The HH100X head angle is 71 deg. Is the XCE 70 deg? My Racer-X is 71 degree and somewhat twitchy. Do you think 70.5 would be better than 71 deg?
By the way, where do you live and ride?
Let me know exactly what you think of your HH100X. Good luck. |
| drjos - agonizing is exactly what I would call it... | drjos
Aug 5, 2002 7:17 PM | | >So, all this is to ask, how much smoother and plusher is the Turner
>XCE? Is it significantly smoother that the HH100X. Is it worth it?
>The HH100X head angle is 71 deg. Is the XCE 70 deg? My Racer-X is 71
>degree and somewhat twitchy. Do you think 70.5 would be better than
>71 deg?
Good questions. I'm pretty sure that Charles at Hammerheadbikes has ridden both. Probably worth talking to him and get his input.
Try not to get too hooked on the angles. Try to find out if the bikes handle the way you want. If you feel that the RX is twitchy in a bad way, then the XCE is probably the bike for you. How a bike is setup can affect the handling a great deal. A longer stem or bars can slow down the handling if a twitchy bike.
>By the way, where do you live and ride?
I live on Bainbridge Island in Western WA. I ride a lot of tight rooty single track on the west side of the state and more open rolling fireroad/dowble track trails in eastern WA. Climbing and handling are important to me. I'm a bit cautious so a bike that is overly stable does nothing for me. I am 38, so a comfortable ride would be nice, all else being equal. I am still considering the XCE. No one calls it slow handling and everyone calls it balanced and fun. I have to go by comparisons to the switchblade.
Good luck,
David |
| how about the turner 02 | wave
Aug 6, 2002 5:47 AM | | Have you considered the Turner 02? Less travel then the XCE (3 vs. 4) and a little steeper head angle (70.5 vs. 70).
I've also considered Titus (the RX and SB), as well as the RX cousin - HH/100, but thought the SB was too similar to my old rig (the still breathing - proflex), and the RX/HH100 looked like fast-twitch racing rigs. Albeit, the HH does look like one nice ride, and folks seem to love it!
I'd be interested in your thoughts/comments, or anything you've heard regarding the 02. Can't seem to find the large number of reviews (like the XCE), but the few that are out there are excellent.
Good riding and let me know what you think. |
| how about the turner 02 | Hammerheadbikes
Aug 6, 2002 9:57 AM | | While the 02 is an awesome bike it's _way_ to similiar to a Racerx
to warrant the switch
he wants more travel
and the 100x is NOT the least bit twitchy
read the reviews on it, one thing everyone comments on is how stable it is
Charles |
| re: HH100X, Switchblade, or Turner XCE? | fonseca
Aug 5, 2002 1:48 PM | | How did you measure the head angle? What fork was on it? Just curious. Now I'm wondering if my 5.7" SB with psylo sl at 125mm is in fact 70 degrees. I need to find a good way to measure it...I beleve there is a guage. |
| Angle Finder + Level | drjos
Aug 5, 2002 2:09 PM | | I used an angle finder + level to measure the angles. I bought mine at a local Ace Hardware for 9$.
http://www.hand-and-power-tools.com/measuring-tools/dasco-products-af100-angle-finder-and-level.asp
My Switchblade in 4.5" mode with a Fox Float RL100 and identical tires front and rear measured about 69 degrees. My old proflex 855, which I am riding a lot now, measured 73 degrees with a Manitou SXR fork. Now that's a quick handling bike! Talk about nervous at speed. Yikes.
As I look at bikes like the HH100X and the XCE, I am putting more weight into comparisons rather than specs. The HH100X is by all accounts a quick steering bike. The XCE is descibed as neutral or predictable. I would describe my switchblade as predictable and neutral at speed but a little plodding in tight single track. In 3.75" mode the handling in single track is outstanding.
While the head tube angle is a major player in the handling of the bike, size and position and setup are also major players.
David |
| re: HH100X, Switchblade, or Turner XCE? | Andrew Mui
Aug 5, 2002 1:40 PM | | glad to help out a fellow mountain biker. I have had the HH100X for about a month now. I ride about 3X/week (now that I have this sucker, it begs me to ride!!) and I can just say that this is EXACTLY what I wanted. Of course, i came from a hardtail. Since you ride a RX, it may be too similar to what you are accustomed too though. i have not ridden the switch or the XCE but am familiar with them. Actually, i hopped on the switch but didn't "ride" it so i can't help you out with that. but i can tel you what i think about the HH100X. first, i was a long time fan of marzocchi and was somewhat wary when charles recommended the fox. of all the components on the market, i was sure aobut one thing. "I can't go wrong with a zoke" although that may be true, the fox excels on the hammerhead. i guess that actually designing the bike around the fork pays off in spades. it feels like a coil over but much more tunable. i've heard people complain that the fork leaks oil during the initial break in period, but i did not experience that to the degree that i have read. it's absolutely fine now. the damping is superior to zokes and i thought that was nearly impossible. it really opened my eyes to the possibilities.
when i decided to purchase the HH, i had an jdea of exactly how i wnated the bike to feel. and when i first jumped on it, it was exactly how i envisioned. i know that my experience on dualies is limited to this only, but i could not imagine a bike more suitable for me. it absolutley RAILS singletrack...and I mean rails. the bike holds it's line almost to a scary degree. lean it over and you'll find yourself through the turn more easily than you thought possible. braking is supurb (this shouldn't be much changed from the RX)
Climbing is unhindered. i've actually lowered air pressure in my shock because it does not hurt the climbing ability at all. from my first ride, i have lowered the psi by 12 lbs. or so. (i'm 5'7" and 153 lbs. 83 psi in the rear, 85 in the front). The front-end is not too high even with the 100 mm fork which was a concern for me initially.
although billed as a cross-country, singletrack machine, it also excels at going fast. i have topped it out going down bumpy fireroads at around 37-38 mph without any nervousness or skittiness in the handlebars. i only maxed out because i could not go any faster (trail levelled off). So any worries about stability at speed should be relieved.
I am not saying that the 100X is the best singletrack racer, the lightest dualie, the best climber, descender, etc. a bike has its limitations and can only be a compromise of the above qualities. but it is rare to find a bike that can perform at such a high level in all areas. and this is it. But this brings me back to your dilemna. you're looking at 3 different bikes and your needs, preferences, style is your own. because you have the RX, this may feel too "at home" with what you know. of course that may be a good thing. the decision is yours. i just know that after one ride is over, i find myself immediately thinking about the next time. when it comes down to it, isn't that what it's all about? |
| re: HH100X, Switchblade, or Turner XCE? | poff
Aug 5, 2002 2:01 PM | | Ok, I do not ride any of these bikes on the daily basis but I can contribute. There is a big difference between XCE and RX/HH. I rode them both (tried) I would never attempt a full speed jump on RX/HH, while I would do it anytime on XCE. XCE sticks to the ground much better on high speed than RX, and when you ride in saddle coil+1/4 of extra travel will be more noticable. But again, the biggest difference you will see at high speeds. It had the same effect on my bike when I changed rear shock on my moots from fox to romic. Here it is. I would go with XCE over other bikes you mentioned, but it is just MHO. |
| re: HH100X, Switchblade, or Turner XCE? | Cyto
Aug 5, 2002 2:19 PM | | You can get an XCE with the Fox air shock rear and the Marz Marathon, and it drops the necessary weight. The one I rode Very well balanced and no flex at the BB. The XCE is bullet proof and will handle the really rocky fast stuff better than the RX/HH. |
| Going with a customer 100X | sdbelt
Aug 5, 2002 2:49 PM | | After demoing (on consecutive weekends) a standard Racer-X and then a Switchblade, for me the Racer-X was a clear winner. The only thing the Switchblade performed better at was steep descents with drop-offs. For everything elese, I liked the Racer-X. Most noticably, the Racer-X climbed really steep terrain far better than the Switch, and for where I ride, this is a necessity.
The Turner was actually ahead of the Titus bikes, until I wasn't able to demo one. The demo really sold me on the Racer-X.
To reuse my Marathon 100, I'm having Titus build me a custom Racer-X (out of Ti), exactly specified to fit me (kinda like an M+ or an L-), in 100X geometry. My rear will have 3.56" of travel.
Good luck with your decision,
--sdb |
| sdbelt - could you elaborate about the Turner... | Trl Lvr
Aug 5, 2002 3:18 PM | | sdb,
Could you elaborate about your statement "The Turner was actually ahead of the Titus bikes, until I wasn't able to demo one. The demo really sold me on the Racer-X. "
Why was the Turner AHEAD of the Titus bikes?
What did you learn on this demo?
Do you agree or disagree with what poff said about the Turner?
Many thanks for your input. |
| If you already have a racerX then HHX will be the same.... | andym
Aug 5, 2002 3:18 PM | | .. why not get something different? I'd get the XCE cause you have a Titus already. But if you want to get a Titus; get the SB Long Travel or the Quasi. If you get the HHX you are going to have two identical bikes - one with a tiny bit more travel. I would get the Quasi if I were to do it all over again. I now hate air shocks and will stay away from now on. This is after a defective Float R experience; but still.
I have the SB with LT kit. 27 lbs with about 5" and 5.7" travel on a very stiff and efficient frame is not bad. Its very plush and feels a little moto-ish; but it is still nimble and a great climber as long as you can keep your weight down in front. It decends really really well; I scare myself all the time. |
| forgot one...the turner 02 | wave
Aug 5, 2002 5:28 PM | | Have you considered the Turner 02? Less travel then the XCE (3 vs. 4) and a little steeper head angle (70.5 vs. 70).
I've also considered Titus (the RX and SB), as well as the RX cousin - HH/100, but thought the SB was too similar to my old rig (the still breathing - proflex), and the RX/HH100 looked like fast-twitch racing rigs. Albeit, the HH does look like one nice ride, and folks seem to love it!
I'd be interested in your thoughts/comments, or anything you've heard regarding the 02. Can't seem to find the large number of reviews (like the XCE), but the few that are out there are excellent.
Good riding and let me know what you think. |
| Hammerhead man, .....Do you agree??????? (nm) | Trl Lvr
Aug 7, 2002 4:50 PM | | nm |
| HH100X, Switchblade, or Turner XCE? | HoJo
Aug 6, 2002 6:33 AM | | First these are all great bikes and in many ways very similar with subtle differences. I currently own a HH100x and a SB, and rode a XCE as my only ride for a few months last year.
HH100X,4" front 3.8" rear... fast, efficient, telepathic handling, very good climber, good decender. It will handle like your RacerX, BUT... the 4" upfront make a big difference in the rough stuff. It was far more noticable than any similar increases on the rear( had a turner burner and added XCE rockers from 3" -4")
SB,4"front- 4.5" rear mode (by the way I have a 2002 and the headangle is a verified 70deg). Not quite the telepathic handling of the RacerX/HH100X, but is still very efficient, may hook up a little better on loose climbs and is perfect for mid size ledges. I'm thinking of going to the 5.7 mode w/ a 5" fork.
XCE, my ride had an Fox Float, therefore only 3.75" rear. Best way for me to descibe the bike is a HH 100X, with the handling of a SB. The rear suspension feels very similar to a 100X, but the handling is a little less telepathic and very stable. Hooks up well, pedals very efficiently. The BIG difference is the ability to run a coil rear which ups the travel to 4" and provides that plush coils feel.
Like I said all great bikes, if you want a coil rear go for the XCE, if you go AIR pick the one that fits best... you can't go wrong with these choices.
Good Luck
HoJo |
| how about a Ventana El Saltamontes? | slowideclyde
Aug 6, 2002 9:45 AM | | I was looking at the same bikes as you earlier this year. People suggested I should also look at the Ventana El Saltamontes. I wasn't as interested in it because it had a seatstay pivot instead of a Horst link, but then found out the SB wasn't tall enough and the XCE was heavier than I thought and won't get 4" with an air shock. HH100 looked nice and I got a parking lot spin on one, but I owned an RX at the time and wanted something a little different. Then I found out about Ventana's demo program. For $100, Ventana will ship a demo bike to any Ventana or KHS dealer and you have a week to beat it up. They'll even deduct $100 from the price if you decide to buy one. The bike felt great. I rode in the 4" and 5" settings with a 4" fork. It was very smooth, descended with confidence and climbed better than I thought a 31 lb bike (my build will be a couple of pound lighter) with 5" of travel and slack angles would. Yes, it did bob a little bit, but I imagine anything with 5" of rear travel would to some degree. I just stayed in the saddle more than usual and was still able to hammer away. Salty can handle Fox air or coil shocks and Romic supposedly makes a coil that'll fit the Salty, although I don't know if you'll be able to get a full 4" or 5" with it. (Ventanarama?) You might be able to tune out some bobbing with it also, but like I said, the Salty does not bob much, even with air pressure set up low enough to provide a fairly plush ride. The 70/71.3 ht/st angles would be too slow I thought, but they just made the bike feel confident everwhere I rode. In some tight, twisty singletrack the bike was slower than my RX, but not slow enough to be annoying. I should also point out that the Salty demo was a 19" and I normally ride a 21", so maybe a larger bike would've felt too slow. Bottom line: the Salty felt like it could handle anything on my local trails and then some-the only weak link on my Salty demo was the rider. My custom 21" Salty should be shipping out today or tomorrow. |
| how about a Ventana El Saltamontes? | Cyto
Aug 9, 2002 6:12 PM | | Cool bike, Excellent finish but it has brake jack problems if you do a lot of downhill rocky stuff.... |
| RX & SB comments ... | RP
Aug 6, 2002 9:46 AM | | Owning both a RX and a SB longer than the honeymoon period has lead me to believe that the RX with a 100mm fork would be the best bike for 90% of the trails and 90% of the riders.
The posts describing the SB handling in the 4.5" mode as too slow tend to make me think that most aren't the aggressive riders they might think. Try doubling the rocky sections at speed of most of the more technical trails and the handling of the SB doesn't seem too slow.
While the RX allows you to steer/crave with the bars, the SB requires body english and rear brake more like a MX bike. The RX is almost always faster over most single track unless there's a lot of really rough stuff that you're fast enough to float through. The place the RX really suffers is on fireroads. At 35-40mph the RX wants to oversteer under braking while the SB is very stable.
I've swapped on the trails with other highend bikes to know that most impressions reflect a rider's bias more than anything else. I'd say the biggest issue with the SB is the interrupted seat tube design and the lack of a coil option. If your riding requires either, the XCE might be a decent option, but on the other hand 4" of travel is pretty limited for a strudy/heavy bike like the XCE. The interrupted seat post Tracer is lighter and has more travel options. The Uzzi might compare better with the XCE and has more travel. If you don't trash your equipment, the Truth is probably the lightest 4" coil ride around. Decisions ... decisions... |
| On SB handling and slack head angles in general | gurp
Aug 6, 2002 10:35 AM | | When I first switched to the SB, I did feel that the slack angles decreased my speed in really tight singletrack when in 4.5/4 inch mode (I eventually ran it in 4.5/4.5). Like a previous poster, I felt that the bike handled in those situations better in the (3.75/3 inch mode). However, the bike handled high speeds and drops MUCH better. Eventually I was punishing the SB to much, and needed more travel, so I sold the SB and bought a Quasi. While building it I wound up decreasing my stem length to 75mm (the SB had been 100) and putting on 27 inch bars (formerly 25). Guess what? I can now rail tight singletrack like I could with a 71degree head angle, and mine is currently around 69, slacker than my SB was.
Bottom line is, handling is affected by more than just the head angle, and slack head angles can be compensated for by altering stem height/length. Look at dual slalom, those guys use 67-69 degree head angles. |
| I agree, slack doesn't have to mean slow... | andym
Aug 6, 2002 11:16 AM | | My HA is around 69-70 with a 125mm Fox on a SB with 5.7" kit. It is plenty nimble. Perhaps you need a little more stearing input; but a shorter stem will help with this. I don't think slack HA = slow handling. Just means more effort to keep the thing under control while climbing. Wheelbase has more of an effect on turning radius anyway. |
| Looking at this post... | Green Giant
Aug 6, 2002 6:55 PM | | I've given it some more thought for you.
Bottom line, the biggest differences in moving to the hammerhead from a racer X are...
100mm up front
slightly stiffer frame
slightly taller BB
new titus rear end.
.25 inches of rear travel
Bike handles the same, same quality, Charles at Hammerhead is outstanding.
Ultimately this is giving you added plushness up front through the ability to run more sag if wanted, and at the very least you get an inch of travel. I've always noticed more on any bike when I gain 1 inch up front vs 1 inch in the rear assuming the same shock type (air or coil)
Going to the Turner
Gain - coil rear shock, you could run air, but there is no reason to. Going to air leaves you with less travel than your X or a hammerhead. So, you have to assume you are going to it for a coil spring.
.35 inches of rear travel.
"a bit of stability" though you sacrifice a bit of quickness in the twisties..
Ulimately your decision comes down to this
Do you want to run coil in the rear or air? And what handling characteristics are you looking for?
if air - move to the hammerhead
if coil - go to the turner.
if you like your racer X's handling - hammerhead
if you want slower, but a bit more stable handling - turner.
If you want air, with more stable handling - get a switchblade
if you want coil with quick handling - good luck.
The biggest difference between air and coil will be on the small stuff, not the big hits. The coil shock will to a better job on the smaller stuff, though the air shocks are getting close. |
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