|   KONA COILER vrs. TURNER 5 SPOT??? | FreeRideKipp
Jan 10, 2004 8:04 PM | | Well I'm in the marker for a new trail...agg xc bike.
5inch travel sounds good for me.
Ive been looking at the new Kona Coiler...The complete bike is 1600.
And also the Turner 5 Spot. The frame alone is like 1800.
How much better can the Turner be.
Same travel and same suspension design...I think.
Lets hear some opinions and reviews...!
Thanks |
| re: KONA COILER vrs. TURNER 5 SPOT??? | drumstix
Jan 10, 2004 8:56 PM | | The rear pivot is different, I havent yet heard anything bad about 5 Spots, Kona, a good frame, good suspension, cool company and all, cant compare to a Turner. If you have the doe, buy the Turner. |
| sort of like RX-7 vs. testarossa!!!!!!!! | FM or MF
Jan 10, 2004 11:52 PM | | Both totally great, but that extra $1000 does get you some treats. The coiler is nice, but the turner gets you a horst link; where as the coiler is a "faux-bar". Even with the better pedalling frame design, the 5-spot comes with the romic SPV shock to make it even better. There's also the weight difference, probably almost 2lbs for the frame alone. And, the piece of mind knowing that your frame is straight and true, not made in Taiwan. Don't forget resale value too.
You can buy a coiler and hop it up; or buy the 5-spot which is about as good as frame design gets right now.
The coiler is a great bike and so is the 5-spot. My advice: Plan a trip somewhere killer for a week of world-class riding with your new bike, and see what you can afford after planning the trip. |
| All the Kona's FS bikes use a Horst type suspension. | Danny
Jan 11, 2004 9:13 AM | | http://www.titusti.com/suspension.html
The coiler series raises the suspension pivot point slightly to support greater travel and has a heavier frame to support the higher loads of higher drops.
Of course, if you have the money to spare by the Turner. On the other hand, Konas are really good values and get great reviews. |
| um disagree... | JimC.
Jan 11, 2004 9:26 AM | | think about it. The chain stay runs a solid, no-pivot line from the main frame to the rear axle. In effect it's a single pivot, as the line of travel for the arc of the rear wheel is the same as any single pivot.. but because there is another pivot on the seat stay above the rear axle, and 2 more because of the walking beam rocker arm, it's known as a faux four bar. What it isn't is Hosst-like, which would place a second pivot on the china stay just in front of the rear axle.
Sorry for the big pic, can't edit it.
Jim |
| Woops...my mistake...thought it was same as MokoMoko | Danny
Jan 11, 2004 10:02 AM | | There older frames had a separate pivot (see eBay auction.) Have they gone to the single pivot on everything?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3650999147&category=22679&rd=1 |
| On older models you are correct | JimC.
Jan 11, 2004 11:11 AM | | I suspect Kona ran afoul of either Specialized or Ellesworth on patents and licenses, and chose to use a seat stay pivot point. On all the '04 lineup, there is no chain stay pivot. I dunno why. At any rate, were both right. but for the guy above posting, it's a single pivot, faux 4-bar unless he buys a Moko². Moko is discontinued and now the Kikapu line is all there is, but now it's 4" travel instead of 3". As I understand it, the Kikapu line was the same frameset as the Moko lineup.
Jim |
| I think you're both wrong... | acme54321
Jan 11, 2004 5:08 PM | | That Mokomoko in the aution isn't horst either. Look at it, it's got a seatstay pivot not chainstay.
Correct me if I'm wrong.. |
| I think it really doesn't matter. (nm) | JimC.
Jan 11, 2004 5:55 PM | | |
| I don't see a geometry difference...especially from this one... | Danny
Jan 11, 2004 6:06 PM | | on the Titus page.
http://www.titusti.com/images/image7.gif
which is described as a "Horst...Swing Link Design." |
| I don't see a geometry difference...especially from this one... | Person
Jan 11, 2004 7:38 PM | | Danny, it's totally different. If the link is on the chain stay and it's in front of and below the rear dropout, the it's a horst link. Looking at the giant NRS will give you an easy to see example. If the link is above the rear dropout, meaning it's on the seat stay, like you'd see on a ventana or kona, then it's not a horst link.
They make all the difference in the world and if manufacturers didn't have to pay specialized for the patent, everyone would be using them. |
| Lie | Axe
Jan 11, 2004 9:01 PM | | >They make all the difference in the world and if manufacturers didn't have to pay specialized for the patent, everyone would be using them.
That's a blatant lie. There is a LOT of reasons why manufacturer such as Ventana, Yeti, Kona and others do not use HOrst link configuration. It has its advantages - but an almost equal number of drawbacks.
That's not my opinion - I do not know enough (but I do agree, as much as I was able to test various designs). That's stated opnion of these manufacturers. It is an undisputable fact, that even at those dirt cheap licensing terms they chose not to use it. |
| Lie | Person
Jan 12, 2004 7:05 PM | | I disagree. Of course that's the stated opinion of those manufacturers. What benefits? |
| Thanks for the correction....I should look closer before posting | Danny
Jan 11, 2004 9:36 PM | | For some reason I missed the lack of chainstay pivot. The older Kona isn't much different from the new design...just uses a separate pivot point...vs. a single swingarm. |
| GT-iDrive and Schwinn iso-drive also have not biopacing. | Danny
Jan 12, 2004 3:37 AM | | ...as Titus likes to call it. The bottom line is if the rear suspension simply moves around a pivot you will have rotational input into the chain. You can get rid of these either by counterrotating the chainstay side, or the crank side. The Horst suspension design does it on the chainstay. GT did this by mounting the crank in a large bearing...allowing it to rotate with the rear. Schwinn's Delta 88 (horrible choice of names, IMHO) is the only other design I know of that also rotates the crankside, by suspending the crank below a pivot. The newest "i-drive", released by GT, is the same suspended crank design as the Schwinn Delta 88. |
| Your right - Kona has never used a .... | dlowell
Jan 11, 2004 5:55 PM | | chainstay located pivot point.... D |
| I WANT THAT BIKE. | SDizzle
Jan 11, 2004 12:39 PM | | Off topic, I 'spose, but I really want an A. I'd love to stroke it out just a bit with a 5th E Air, so as not to ruin the geometry with a 130 mm Minute on the front. The SSer in me can't resist, and the descender in me wants something that ISN'T another hardtail. |
| Great advice... | Bikezilla
Jan 11, 2004 5:16 PM | | "Plan a trip somewhere killer for a week of world-class riding with your new bike, and see what you can afford after planning the trip."
Technical differences aside, I really like that.
As for the bikes, yeah, the Turner costs way more, it's really worth it though. But then so is the Kona. You can do a lot with the duckets saved and still have an awsome ride. It all depends on your disposable income.
-Bikezilla |
| re: KONA COILER vrs. TURNER 5 SPOT??? | Monte
Jan 11, 2004 9:48 AM | | I ride a Kona Stinky, 2001. I've gotten the bike down under 30 lbs by replacing the wheels, tires, crankarms and fork.
For $1800 you get a 5-Spot frame and shock. For $1600 you get a whole bike with the Coiler. Do you the parts or cash to build up the 5-Spot? If you do, go for it. The Coiler is not a Horst Link suspension if that matters. My Stinky climbs great with a Talas at 125 and I can drop the front end if I want to for long climbs. I think the Talas has a little shorter axle to crown height and that drops the front down a bit which helps it climb, plus it's a light fork.
I don't think the frames weigh 2 lbs different though, because my Stinky weighs under 30 built up with pretty run of the mill stuff.
Monte |
| horst link = $$$ | FM or MF
Jan 11, 2004 11:58 AM | | Look around at american companies that produce horst link bikes. There's specialized and pretty much everything else is well over $1k for frame only. Leads me to beleive that specialized is charging a good bit for licensing their patent. Having owned/ridden a lot of frame designs, I'd have to say it's pretty noticable. low single pivots/faux-bars exhibit more bobbing when climbing out of the saddle or sprinting. Move the pivot higher (less active) and this goes away, but then brake jack gets worse and the suspension locks out under power. Only horst link 4-bars, or a low single pivot with floating brake, seem to not have these qualities.
Lots of options though. I have many riding buddies that ride stinkys and one who has a coiler; their all very happy with them. Also the specialised enduros are great, might I suggest one of those with a a coil shock upgrade, and maybe a Z-1- still very affordable. Also the SC heckler is awesome and fairly cheap. Very active single pivot, but the 5th element seems to get rid of the bob problem. Don't forget to look at 2002 titus switchblades, they're selling pretty cheap right now and are great frames.
All great bikes that won't cost you an arm and a leg.... |
| horst link = $$$ | kamikazebikr
Jan 11, 2004 2:01 PM | | Where could I look at the 02 Titus?
It seems like the Kona Coiler can take more abuse than a 5 Spot right?
Is the heckler comprable to these bikes...how much travel?
Thanks |
| stats | FM or MF
Jan 11, 2004 2:45 PM | | There's a few '02 switchblades on eBay right now. I may sell mine when my new RFX arrives, not sure until I get some rides in on the RFX and see how I like climbing on a 36lb bike. Anyway '02 switchblades aren't hard to find, watch ebay and look on the classifiedes. Seems like $700-$900 is the range for '02's. My medium weighed just over 6lbs.
The coiler can probably take more abuse than the 5-spot or switchblade, but is also heavier and will have the most bob and brake jack of those three, since it's the only one without a true horst link.
Heckler is as burly as the coiler, maybe even a little more. My friends 2003 large weighed 8lbs even, not bad for a frame that can take a dual crown. Pedals great, no bob but a little brake jack, geometry is simialr to the kona- short TT, tall head tube. I see new ones going for $850 or so on eBay.
You can basically guage frame strength by weight here; just keep in mind a coil shock weighs about 3/4lb more than an air shock.
6lbs for a switchblade with air shock. 3.5,4.5, or 5.7" travel.
7lbs for a 5-spot with coil shock. 5" travel
8lbs for a heckler with coil shock. 5" travel
I'm guessing the coiler weighs 8lbs or so. 5" travel.
Good luck and happy shopping, they're all great bikes! |
| horst link = $4 per bike. | Tscheezy
Jan 11, 2004 6:23 PM | | Supposedly according to Sherwood of Ventana. It is not a prohibitive cost to dissuade any manufacturer from using the link. If a company decides not to use a Horst, it is for some other reason.
tscheezy |
| re: horst link = $4 per bike. | Person
Jan 11, 2004 7:35 PM | | Yeah right. Of course Ventana would say that. They use a less efficient design and they need to defend it. |
| Bullshit | Axe
Jan 11, 2004 8:46 PM | | There is nothing less efficient about Ventana design, and Ventana's owner knows, oh, about 100 times more about building bikes and choosing design that you do. Coincidence? I do not think so.
Horst link marketing hype is just that - marketing hype. As a user I can only attest to that (but, then, of course, I do not pretend to know 1% of what Sherwood Gibson knows about bikes.) |
| Bullshit.....Really? I feel the difference! | ozlongboarder
Jan 11, 2004 9:36 PM | | Had my salty for 2 plus years, I can feel the difference in the non horst link rear end under breaking compared to the Spec Enduro I had before it. From what I have heard (rumor mill) is that Sherwood is concerned more about frame stiffness on a horst link design.
It may be bullshit to you but its not for me. I guess you own a Ventana? |
| Difference - yes, no questions. | Axe
Jan 12, 2004 11:45 AM | | I never argued these two designs are not "different". They are. I also feel it. Horst link feels mushy to me. No direct feedback. I feel much better with an uninterrupted chain stay. What does it mean? Nothing, that's just my lousy opinion, just like yours.
What is Bullshit, with a capital "B", it's the claim that Horst link suspension is somehow "superior" (not just different) and everybody would have been using it, if not for the patent. |
| Bullshit | wake up
Jan 11, 2004 9:38 PM | | watch your language in here please.....
horst pivots are more active under pedal loads and braking as well. Anyone who knows suspension knows this. The difference is not that much these days depending on design comparisons, but the higher up the main BB pivot is on non horst pivot bikes, the more you will feel the lack of active suspension both climbing and decending with the brakes on. If you think its ONLY marketing hype, you have never done a true test to find out, or else you ride flat lands and corn fields all year long. The rider and terrain is the deciding factor to which one works best for you. |
| I think Sherwood had a different priority... | Bikezilla
Jan 11, 2004 9:53 PM | | Since we're all taking blind swings here, I'll throw in my .02
It seems to me that Sherwood's focus is on absolue stiffness (and beauty). Perhaps plushness as well. So _maybe_ that is why he leans towards the seat stay pivot design.
It seems to me that Turner OTOH, put his primary focus on pedaling efficency while maintiaing activeness or compliance durning pedaling and braking forces. That's the bike line's reputation anyway.
The way I see it, the "one mind" botique bike builders pick their target based on how they feel a bike should ride, perhaps somewhat influenced by their own preferences and trail types and go from there.
I don't think Sherwood avoids the Horst because of the cost or the hype. He just has another target. Somehow I doubt a seatstay pivot would bob less than a horst (of similar quality) if both did not have platform shocks, but then the SSP might do other things better. (be more sensitive or plush?)
I've never ridden a Ventanna but I occasionally ride with a guy who went from a Salty to a 'Spot. He did say the differences were NOT night and day. But they were indeed different.
-Bikezilla |
| single pivots win world cup dh races | all the time
Jan 11, 2004 10:02 PM | | |
| no they dont, the rider wins it. | correction
Jan 11, 2004 10:29 PM | | And at that point, their ability is so far beyond what us mortals can do on a bike, they could win on a huffy they're so damn good. The bike only needs to finish the race, the tuning they get along with it plays a big role. And they rarely use the brakes. |
| I would think "biopacing" is more of a killer uphill than down. | Danny
Jan 12, 2004 3:39 AM | | The more you are on the crank, the more you'll notice the effect. Climbing up a bumpy hill has got to be worse than flying down one. |
| Can 'correction', 'wake up' and 'all the time'... | SDizzle
Jan 12, 2004 5:49 AM | | stop being such sissies and register? Figure out how to stand up for what you feel the need to bitch about, and don't hide behind some weak, fake handle. |
| w/u & Corr are the same person... | Bikezilla
Jan 12, 2004 7:50 AM | | or same IP anyway. But he/she made good points w/o being a PITA about it. Unlike some other folks in this thread.
But I agree, it would still be better if it were said with a single name attached to it so we could follow who's saying what.
Then again, this is one of the issues that the new forum will eliminate...EVERYONE has to register to post. (and then there's the "ignore" feature...there are sure to be a few nicks that will be popular on that list. ;^)
-BZ |
| Road bikes win Tour De France... | Bikezilla
Jan 12, 2004 5:48 AM | | Hell, DH bikes often have more sag than some trailbikes have in total travel. We might as well be comparing road bikes.
DH bikes have like what, 9"+ of travel, weight ~40-50 pounds, are rarely sat on and are never ridden uphill? Not the same as what is needed for a trailbike I think.
Sure SP works wonders there. But that's a very specific application where the design is so radically different that the potential efficiency problems are mitigated in both the extreme design and the limited times where the problems would be detectable.
-Bikezilla |
| |
