|   New DT wheels. | www.mtnpedaler.com
Jan 12, 2004 4:44 PM | | Check them out. Available now. I couldn't get a price on them yet.
DT-Onyx/4.1 CL-disc* 26" Front wheel, 32h
Remarks: - Prebuilt DT-spec'd mountain wheel (CenterLock-disc compatible)
- *Wheel uses XR-4.1 rim (rim-brake compatible): run disc or rim brake
- 425g DT XR-4.1 machined-sidewall, single-eyelet rim (21.6wx20.5h)
- 160g DT Onyx CL-disc front hub (100mm OL): Q/R skewer separate
- 14G DT Competition double-butted spokes: 3-cross laced
- 14G DT ProLock (thread-compound prepped) alloy nipples
- Weight: 786g-front / 1000b-rear = 1786g-pair (all black: rim/spokes/hub) |
| & New high end DT wheels. | www.mtnpedaler.com
Jan 12, 2004 4:57 PM | | These aren't available yet.
Manufacturer: DT-Swiss - (Part No. W4R)
Description: DT-240s/4.1d CL-disc 9sp 26" Rear wheel, 32h
Remarks: - Prebuilt DT-spec'd mountain wheel (CenterLock-disc compatible)
- 425g DT XR-4.1d machined-sidewall, single-eyelet disc rim (21.6x20.5)
- 258g DT 240s CL-disc rear hub (135mm OL): Q/R skewer separate
- 15G DT SuperComp triple-butted spokes: 3-cross laced
- 15G DT ProLock (thread-compound prepped) alloy nipples
- Weight: 730g-front / 852g-rear = 1581g-pair (all black: rim/spokes/hub) |
| I like what I'm hearing about the DT Swiss hubs, 2 reliable sources... | Bikeless Rider
Jan 12, 2004 9:19 PM | | ...(Larry at Mt High Cyclery, and Titus) have mentioned that their engagement is much quicker than Shimano's, even better if one doesn't have to deal with the Centerlock !@#$%&* (hint hint). I thought Chris Cocalis had made an error when he told me the other day that these wheels were available with 24 spoke count, but Titus may have had some specially made. I prefer 32 spoke, for strength and ease of finding rim replacements. The Supercomp spokes and prolock nipples are icing on the cake. Do you have price, weight, and availability on the wheels that use the non centerlock hubs, or is that the only way they come? |
| Maybe Shimano. | www.mtnpedaler.com
Jan 13, 2004 8:37 AM | | New XTR hubs are 24 hole. Both disc and caliper. It's possible that a special run of DT hubs are 24s. Looks like only the Onyx wheels will be both types of disc mounting. It wouldn't be to much trouble to have IS 240s built up custom. The pre-builts are mainly for shops. It's a lot easier for a busy shop to order already built wheels. Since DT puts out a quality product I would imagine the build is very good.
Sorry I don't share a dislike for Shimano. If the big S only offered their brakes in Centerlock it might be a issue. But they offer it in both types. If it was a crap system it might be a issue. It wouldn't be on DT hubs if it was not up to par. I just don't understand this Shimano hate thing. Is it a group of people who hate stuff that works?
Here's a list of all DT pre-built wheels. I don't have prices yet. Looks like there will be a XC caliper, Freeride, and road wheels also.
DT-240s/4.1 std 26" Front wheel, 28h
DT-240s/4.1 std 9sp 26" Rear wheel, 32h
DT-240s/4.1d CL-disc 26" Front wheel, 32h
DT-240s/4.1d CL-disc 9sp 26" Rear wheel, 32h
DT-240s/4.1d CL-disc SS B-O 26" R wheel, 32h
DT-Onyx/4.1 CL-disc* 26" Front wheel, 32h
DT-Onyx/4.1 CL-disc* 26" Rear wheel, 32h
DT-Onyx/4.1d IS-disc 26" Front wheel, 32h
DT-Onyx/4.1d IS-disc 26" Rear wheel, 32h
DT-HugiFR/4.1d IS-disc 26" Front wheel, 32h
DT-HugiFR/4.1d IS-disc 26" Rear wheel, 32h
DT-240s/1.1 Aero 700c Front wheel, 28h
DT-240s/1.1 Aero 700c Rear wheel, 28h
DT-240s/1.1 Revo 700c Front wheel, 32h
DT-240s/1.1 Revo 700c Rear wheel, 32h |
| Sorry, didn't mean to mislead you, I don't hate Shimano, I just. | Bikeless Rider
Jan 13, 2004 10:48 PM | | ...don't want to see products flooding the market that take away our choices. The only reason DT would not have their wheels available in a 240 6 bolt to the general public, is if Shimano coherced them into offering them only in Centerlock, seems like obvious logic to me. Shimano has some fine products, but some aspects of their designs are behind in time, and some are overengineered, and overpriced, not a good company to attempt to gain so much control I think. Just my $0.02 worth. |
| 6-bolt is not going away... | DaveA
Jan 14, 2004 7:45 AM | | DT Swiss will offer both CL and 6-bolt DB hubs. The 240s and Onyx will be 6-bolt or XTR CL compatible, the Hugi FR will be 6-bolt or Saint CL compatible - just to clarify. |
| Hubs yes, this I know, but we're talking about wheelsets.(nm) | Bikeless Rider
Jan 15, 2004 1:05 AM | | |
| Actually...The DT's are pretty slow engaging hubs... | Bianchi4Me
Jan 13, 2004 1:36 PM | | The DT's are a smidge better than Shimano, but it's not really a positive aspect of the DT design compared to most other hub models.
Chris King ISO and Discotech = 72 points (350% faster than Shimano)
Sun Ringle Abbah = 36 points (125% faster than Shimano)
White Industries = 36 points (125% faster than Shimano)
American Classic/WTB Disc = 24 points (50% faster than Shimano)
Hope XC = 21 (31% faster than Shimano)
DT Swiss = 18 point (12.5% faster than Shimano)
Shimano = 16 Points (except new Dura-Ace is 24)
Every little bit helps, but if you want fast engagement DT Swiss/Hugi isn't really much of a step up from Shimano. Even Shimano has begun switching to a faster hub design with their 2004 Dura Ace. Once that trickles down DT Swiss will be dead last unless they get a move on, and they haven't changed this for 2004. |
| Thanks, you're really down with the specs! That's alot of usefull... | Bikeless Rider
Jan 13, 2004 10:52 PM | | ...info for one post! Do you know if Shimano is going 24 on their mt bike hubs for '05, and is the Dura Ace hub equiped with a stouter spring and a third pawl perhaps? |
| Just checked with White Ind., they said their disc hubs are a... | Bikeless Rider
Jan 15, 2004 1:03 AM | | ...24 tooth drive system although they seem to be very sturdy and priced well if you don't mind a little extra weight. The only thing is, nobody seems to offer them in a build spec. I also found out that the WTB version of the Am Classics are 12 gm heavier on the rear hub. I'm wondering if WTB is specing a steel axle. I haven't really found out if Bill Shook has worked all the bugs out of it's design since he took over again. The main change in the drive system seems to be something about a new cam design. |
| Nice lady at White told me 36 just prior to my post? | Bianchi4Me
Jan 15, 2004 9:31 AM | | Interesting.... I called and spoke with them and DT Swiss prior to posting. Wanted to be sure they hadn't changed anything for 2004.
Maybe they have two different engagement systems? If so it's kind of odd to have the faster one on the Road hub, where you don't really need it. |
| Yes, that sounds like the same person I spoke to. She mentioned... | Bikeless Rider
Jan 15, 2004 7:22 PM | | ..the tooth amount in correcting me after I commented on 36 being nice and quick, and I remember saying to her that the number she stated would make them the same speed as the Am Classic/WTB design. This of course led to some comparisons between the two durability wise, and I couldn't help but give them the nod there. I couldn't help but agree with her that even given the redesign of the Am Classic cams, it's still not as durable and reliable as a system that uses pressed in steel drive rings, rather than steel drive hardware contained in an aluminum drive chamber. I would like to hear your opinion on that though, as I know your in the bike biz, and have first hand experience on how the latest stuff is working. She also said they'll be making the cranks again soon, but with the traditional square taper. She seemed to be saying they would have prefered to be liscenced to use the Shimano Octalink spline on the BB as well as the crank, but Shimano said they had to use their BB. I thought manufacturers had to allow access to others after a 3 year period or so, regaurding new standards. I don't see how that would only apply to the cranks and not the BB, I must be missing something there. |
| Interesting but... | DaveA
Jan 14, 2004 8:12 AM | | how does the quantity of engagement points transfer into real world use? Are you 350% faster? Are there any studies that go beyond personal "feeling and opinion" on this? I do not question the math of engagement point quantity. Trials and BMX riders come to mind, but there are more than a few trials riders that compete above the amatuer level that have successfully used Shimano and Hugi hubs. How about coasting f/h resistance with that many engagement points? Not that I know of any studies of this either, but you could turn theory into internet-disinformation on this point too. |
| WTF? | Homebrew
Jan 14, 2004 9:20 AM | | Get a grip. If you don't like fast engagement, fine, don't use them. But to totally dismiss this feature is ridiculous. You sound like you are arguing just to argue. What are you, a lawyer? |
| WTF? Can't a guy ask? Even a lawyer? | DaveA
Jan 14, 2004 11:39 AM | | No real argument here - just curious. I've ridden several of the above mentioned hubs (back to back on different wheelsets) and have never noticed a useable difference as far as engagement goes. That said, I'm no pro, nor beginner either, just a XC and road rider. It seems that there would need to be a huge dead spot upon re-pedaling to have an efficieny effect. I've just never ridden any hub that has this. What I question is that the earlier mentioned engagement percentages make this seem like a major issue - though I do not question the math. Now, if you question my questioning again, I'll sue. |
| Gearing and terrain is a big factor in determining importance. | Bianchi4Me
Jan 14, 2004 12:09 PM | | The gear you are using has a huge impact on engagement speed. The drivetrain can act to reduce or multiple the engagement delay.
On a road bike, the worst delay-inducing gear combo you normally see is a 39t front ring and 27t rear cog. Since we have more teeth on the front than on the back, this means that the cranks only rotate 69% of a turn for every rotation of the hub. So any engagement delay at hub is reduced to 69% at the crank arm.
Put it another way. In terms of degrees of rotation, a Shimano 16-point hub has to turn a maximum of 22.5 degrees before engaging. 69% of this means that you have to rotate the crank only 15.5 degrees before the hub will engage. This is why some road hubs get away with only having a 12 point engagement and folks rarely notice a problem.
Now, on a MTB bike, you will frequently see a 22T front ring paired with a 34T rear cog. This means the crank is rotating 155% (1.55 times) for every time the hub goes around. So you multiply the engagement delay at the hub by 155% to get the amount of rotation needed at the crank arm to make the hub engage. Using our Shimano hub as above, that makes about 35 degrees of movement at the crank before it picks up.
That's still not a huge amount of movement, and on a lot of terrain, this amount of movement is no problem. However, if you are doing a stop-and-start on a tough climb, ratcheting the cranks through a rock garden to clear ground clutter, etc., than a significant difference in delay can be quite noticeable. |
| Than why brag about it ;-) ? | Bianchi4Me
Jan 14, 2004 11:48 AM | | The post was in response to folks promoting sales of the DT hubs by noting the engagement speed advantage compared to Shimano. The suggestion was that one reason to select DT hubs instead of Shimano is because they are a lot faster-engaging than Shimano.
My point was that this particular feature of the DT design isn't really very competitive with most other aftermarket hubs out there. Therefore I don't see this argument as really being a logical reason to select DT instead of some other brand.
Now, you're asking "is engagement really all that important in the first place?" Which is a really good question.
That answer will depend on the individual rider, terrain, and gearing used, BUT...
If it IS important, than DT isn't exactly a gold-medal winner in this respect.
If it is NOT important, than it's kind of silly to brag about how they are so much faster than Shimano.
Either way, "buy DT because of it's faster engagement" isn't a very compelling sales pitch, is it? |
| It could be more durable | shiggy©®
Jan 14, 2004 1:48 PM | | Quicker engagement can reduce the hammering force on the pawls/ratchet. |
| Good points from both Bianchi4me and Shiggy, I usually think of... | Bikeless Rider
Jan 15, 2004 1:20 AM | | ...engagement comparisons in terms of mt biking with low gears, esp on technical terrain. Very good comment about momentum on climbs and clearing obstacles. Quick engaging hubs truly "let momentum be your friend" as they say. Timing your pedal strokes, torque, and keeping momentum are essential to good technical skills. I also agree that chain slap from drive engagement, and none of us ever completely avoid it on drive systems that are prone to it, adds up in wear and tear. In fact, it is that exact type of wear, which is concentrated in one spot on each tooth of your cogs/rings lessening their longevity even more so.
Sorry that I turned this into a semi-heated debate over some info that I may have misconstrued about DT vs Shimano. |
| & a ss wheel. | www.mtnpedaler.com
Jan 12, 2004 5:06 PM | | Also not available yet.
Manufacturer: DT-Swiss - (Part No. W8RB)
Description: DT-240s/4.1d CL-disc SS B-O 26" R wheel, 32h
Remarks: - Prebuilt DT-spec'd mountain wheel (CenterLock-disc compatible)
- 425g DT XR-4.1d machined-sidewall, single-eyelet disc rim (21.6x20.5)
- 285g DT 240s CL-disc Single-Speed, Bolt-On rear hub (135mm OL)
- 15G DT SuperComp triple-butted spokes: 3-cross laced
- 15G DT ProLock (thread-compound prepped) alloy nipples
- Weight: 730g-front / 881g-rear = 1611g-pair (all black: rim/spokes/hub)
Couldn't get photo to load, sorry. |
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